• Avid Amoeba
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    21 days ago

    The more infrastructure they lay and the more customers they connect, the harder to shut them down. The more bail-worthy they become.

    • corsicanguppy
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      20 days ago

      Yeah they’re trying hard to achieve the “too big to kill” status, like shamu.

      • HikingVet
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        19 days ago

        Shamu would have succumbed to a .308 to the brain pan. There ain’t shit that is “to big to be killed”, just those unwilling to do the killing.

  • pipsqueak1984
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    21 days ago

    Because we live in Canada and our design day heating energy requirement is typically far greater than our design day cooling energy requirement. Add in the fact that best pump efficiency falls way off at design day heating (to half or less of design day cooling) and you end up with equipment that may be able to do heating and cooling but is way oversized for cooling, so lots of people opt to save capital (and potentially maintenance) money by relying on gas heat for the coldest days.

    Because water heating with heat pumps is currently garbage on the residential scale… the heat pump capacity on residential water heaters is quit low, which is fine for keeping the tank warm but not for dealing with a half decent draw, so they all include full electric capacity which means you need the service size and associated operating costs to go along with it. Commercial heat pump water heating isn’t much better, it may get better once CO2 or propane take off as a refrigerant here.

    Because more and more buildings are putting in emergency generators, which require either natural gas, propane or fuel oil. One of those is significantly easisr to install and maintain than the other two.

    • WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world
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      20 days ago

      Although this might be accurate, what would be the true cost of gas if you removed all the subsidies and added the cost of fossil fueled warming from the continued GHG release? What will be the cost of gas if climate change really starts to pop and we undergo radically accelerated decarbonization? What is the projected cost of renewables + batteries + electric heating in 5, 10 or 20 years?

      These are more relevant details regarding the building of infa that should be built to last, and is costed to last, for several decades.

    • sailingbythelee@lemmy.world
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      20 days ago

      I just had to buy a new gas furnace and air conditioner, so, with my mind on global warming, I asked the furnace guy what it would cost to put in a heat pump. He said he has put in quite a few, but the costs have gone way up. He also said that in our climate I would need an electric back-up furnace for winter because a heat pump loses efficiency quickly at temps below -15C. The cost was going to be around $30,000, compared to $15,000 for the new gas furnace and AC. Also, electricity in Ontario is an incredibly expensive way to heat, so that would be a big extra monthly cost in the winter. An in-ground geothermal system would be about $65,000, he said.

      It isn’t hard to see why gas is still popular, and that it will continue to be far into the future unless we undertake some kind of national project to replace our fossil fuel infrastructure with nuclear for the needed electricity and then convert our cars and homes over to full electric.

      • pipsqueak1984
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        19 days ago

        Did you asking about getting a heat pump to run the AC coil above the gas furnace instead of just a regular outdoor AC unit? The cost difference in hardware is only a few hundred dollars at most (for same sized unit, maybe $500-$700 if you are going up a size to hear for longer into the winter), installation cost should be the same and while it doesn’t eliminate gas burining you can reduce it by probably 50% - 70%.

        This is basically what I’m in the process if doing, except rather than a furnace replacement I’m only doing it to add AC because I currently don’t have AC on my furnace.

    • ikidd@lemmy.world
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      21 days ago

      Finally, someone that knows what the fuck they’re talking about. Heat pumps are fine in a lot of the world, but when you have to put a furnace in anyway because a heat pump can’t deal with actual cold winters, you might as well just have the furnace.

      • Kelsenellenelvial
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        20 days ago

        Yep, in Sask right now natural gas is about 1/7 the cost of electricity, which means at best a heat pump only costs about 2x as much to run as a modern gas furnace. Maybe as our grid transitions to renewables and carbon prices rise those costs will become even or shift towards benefiting heat pumps, but I suspect at this point you’re not going to hit break even over the typical life of a heat pump. Much more affordable to stick with gas for now, and maybe start moving to heat pumps 10 years from now. Same argument for water heaters, gas is going to be cheaper than a heat pump for most cases. Maybe new builds lean towards a heat pump because it doesn’t need venting which minimizes HVAC needs, and/or if a person has a solar system that minimizes their electricity costs.

    • phx
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      20 days ago

      Because water heating with heat pumps is currently garbage on the residential scale.

      Also because we’re already stressing electric infrastructure with what we use now, and few plans to add capacity in any reasonable amount to deal with the massive increase in population, plus electric cars, AC during heat waves etc let alone home heating.

      Gas is efficient for heating, and there’s plenty of other stuff we can and need to look at before we replace that.

      • Nik282000
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        20 days ago

        Also because we’re already stressing electric infrastructure with what we use now

        This is propaganda.

        On the hottest day last week Ontario hyrdo demand was ~24000MW, last night it went as low as 12000MW. There is room to almost double the baseload in Ontario, with actually smart appliances and controls (not SmartTM shit) a ton of fossil fuel heating loads could be replaced with electric without needing any grid level upgrades.

  • Nik282000
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    21 days ago

    The boat salesman says you need a boat.

    YOU pay for the infrastructure, YOU pay for the maintenance, YOU pay for the gas. Why would they stop now?

    • LimpRimbleOP
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      21 days ago

      “Growth at any cost” is a great motto for corporations, and cancer.

  • Showroom7561
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    21 days ago

    That’s great for climate goals, but can someone tell me how we’re supposed to heat our homes? Electricity?

    • rtxn@lemmy.world
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      21 days ago
      1. Better insulation.
      2. Heat pumps.
      3. By the time gas heating is eliminated, climate change will have solved that problem.
      • Valmond@lemmy.world
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        20 days ago

        Climat change won’t magically remove heating needs. It will bring hotter summers, colder winters, bed weather etc.

      • Showroom7561
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        21 days ago

        Heat pumps sounds like a good way forward. I haven’t looked into the cost to replace a heater in a home, but I guess new homes could just have them installed by default.

        What about natural gas use in home cooking/restaurants? Surely, you can’t just replace that easily.

        EDIT: And what about heating water? I mean, natural gas is used for more than heating the space in a home.

        • PhoenixAlpha
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          21 days ago

          Induction stovetops are fast, efficient, and safe. (but regular electric is fine as well)

          Water heaters are similarly available in electric and heat pump configurations.

        • tiredofsametab@kbin.run
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          20 days ago

          I have a 200v induction cooktop. My only complaint so far is that I don’t quite have as fine-grained control as I did with gas, but that doesn’t matter most of the time. It also isn’t heating up and around the pan. In any case, I have a portable casette gas stove if I really want to make Chinese in a wok with high heat and the flame coming up the sides.

          My water heater is an eco-cute and does quite well for energy efficiency. It was a bit of a change coming back from instant on-demand gas water heaters, but it’s fine now that I’m used to it.

        • rtxn@lemmy.world
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          21 days ago

          Surely you can. Modern electric stovetops use infrared radiation from a wire coil to heat cookware. The stovetop is covered with a ceramic that allows infrared radiation to pass through, and if you put something on it, it’ll absorb the radiation as heat. The technology is also scalable to industrial applications.

          I’ll let Brown Jacket Man explain the principle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff04ecF9Dfw

          (edit) My house has an electric water heater that was built in the Soviet Union. It uses a ~200-litre tank with a large heating element inside.

          • Pxtl
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            21 days ago

            Those ceramic/glasstop ovens are shit. An old school coil will always be better, or modern induction.

            • SmoothLiquidation@lemmy.world
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              21 days ago

              Don’t confuse the old school glass flat tops with the induction ones. They use different methods and work very differently even though they look alike.

            • ebits21
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              21 days ago

              Meh they’re fine. Yes induction is better but they’re not shit.

              • Policeshootout
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                21 days ago

                Ceramic/glass top electric is shit. I’ve used gas and induction a fair amount, but at home I have a mid range priced electric ceramic and it’s terrible compared to the other two options.

          • Revan343
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            21 days ago

            Shitty modern electric stove tops use infrared radiation. Good modern electric stove tops are induction

        • saigot
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          20 days ago

          And what about heating water?

          A heat pump water heater is pretty great, if my basement ever gets too hot I run the dishwasher or take a shower and the water heater cools things down nicely. In winter I close the door and vent to the utility room and it doesn’t hurt the heating very much. It’s smaller than my previous gas water heater but it lasts significantly longer and heats up faster if you do end up using all the hot water. My house of 4 uses about 50kWh of hot water a month, which works out to about 5bucks a month. I’ve messed with it a bit so it runs mostly during off peak hours.

          I replaced my water heater, got a heatpump and improved insulation at around the same time (through the greener homes loan program) and on the whole saved about 50bucks a month overall, and will save another 30 when I cap off the gas pipe and get to stop paying all the bullshit fees for just having it connected. I live in southern Ontario, away from the lakes, so -30 - 30 weather typically. (All this week has been 40+ though, wonder why…).

          Oh and fwiw, I would take my current induction stovetop over a gas stove anyway, much more consistent, easier to clean and heats up faster, and doesn’t heat up the whole house to run.

    • acargitz
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      21 days ago

      Um, yes? Heat pump until -15C, baseboards for the relatively fewer days that go below that. Plus good insulation.

      In Quebec we have cheap hydroelectric of course, but I mean, between nuclear power, renewables and hydro, that’s basically how.

  • Auzy@beehaw.org
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    20 days ago

    Probably same reason as here in Australia.

    The gas companies have managed to create a multifaceted cult where they’ve brainwashed people into thinking electricity is unclean (despite things like heat pumps being 500% efficient), unreliable and expensive.

    Also, it helps that people who paid too much for their ICE cars are scared and they know that their cars will increasingly drop in value as people transition away from gas and fossil fuels.

    • GreyEyedGhost
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      20 days ago

      I don’t see a lot of people worrying about their cars devaluing. Except for the recent blip, most cars devalued fast, and the cars that held value before didn’t retain it because of their utility.

  • asg101
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    21 days ago

    Natural gas infrastructure and heating could be transitioned to hydrogen or biogas.

    • pbjamm@beehaw.org
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      21 days ago

      Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas so would not really be a replacement for the foreseeable future. Gas infrastructure is not designed for transporting hydrogen so leaks would be significant. Hydrogen can also penetrate into steel piping and cause it to crack and deteriorate more rapidly.

      Biogas, sure if there were enough production available.

      • delirious_owl@discuss.online
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        20 days ago

        No reason we can’t produce hydrogen from solar, wind, hydro, and geothermal.

        Add carbon dioxide to the hydrogen, and you get methane that you can transport through existing gas pipelines without the issues of hydrogen

        • saigot
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          20 days ago

          A perfect Electrolysis reaction takes about 39kwh to produce 1kg of hydrogen that if burned at 100% efficiency would yield 33kwh of power. More realistically it takes 50-60kwh to produce 1kg that is burned to produce ~25kwh of usable energy.

          I’m not too sure about converting hydrogen to methane but that will have energy overhead as well, and then you have to deal with the fact that 6% of natural gas production today is leaked into the air, which both further hurts the efficiency of synthesizing it and also has a significant climate impact.

          I think it willl almost always be cheaper to just provide electricity directly except in cases where energy density is far more important than efficiency, which is not the case for stationary homes.

          • delirious_owl@discuss.online
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            20 days ago

            It doesn’t have a negative climate impact if the source is renewables. That’s the point. Its basically free gas.

            Solar energy doesn’t run at night. Wind doesn’t always run. Hydro doesn’t work during droughts.

            This is a battery that solvers these issues.

            • saigot
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              20 days ago

              If you take co2 and convert it to methane and then release that methane you are increasing the impact of that co2 by 6x.

        • pbjamm@beehaw.org
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          20 days ago

          Something like 90% of hydrogen is produced from methane and coal, so there clearly are reasons. Most likely cost effectiveness.

          Add carbon dioxide to the hydrogen, and you get methane that you can transport through existing gas pipelines

          Well sure, since those pipes are already transporting methane. I dont think requiring each home to have its own methane pyrolysis infrastructure is particularly practical or efficient either.

          • delirious_owl@discuss.online
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            20 days ago

            Because its a waste product, but once we make digging up fossil fuels illegal, that will change. Then we can repurposed the infrastructure in ways that are not harmful

            • pbjamm@beehaw.org
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              20 days ago

              I have no idea what to make of this vacuous comment, so unless you have something meaningful and specific to say I think I am done with this conversation. Good Day.

  • MikeOToxin@lemmy.world
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    19 days ago

    Because eastern Canada still needs the oil subsidies from the Prairies.

    Forestry just isn’t cutting it out there, and like it or not, the country needs money.

  • AutoTL;DR@lemmings.worldB
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    21 days ago

    This is the best summary I could come up with:


    In 2022, buildings accounted for 13 per cent of the country’s emissions, making them the third biggest source of greenhouse gases by sector, after oil and gas and transportation.

    It was overseen by provincial and territorial regulators whose key goal was to ensure safe and reliable energy at fair rates for customers.

    It aimed to incentivize developers “to choose the most cost-effective, energy-efficient choice,” but the board was overruled by the Ontario government, so the original plan will go ahead.

    Kate Harland, lead author of the Canadian Climate Institute report, said utility regulators’ mandates should be changed to include climate targets, as has been done in the U.K. And they could change “obligation to serve rules” in order to consider alternative technologies, such as electrification, energy efficiency measures or thermal networks to provide heating to customers.

    It is the perfect method to allow gas utilities to transition and keep or increase their annual profit, while at the same time reducing the customer’s energy bills, according to Schulman.

    Harland says current incentives alone won’t drive down customer demand for gas quickly enough and energy policies need to change.


    The original article contains 1,091 words, the summary contains 182 words. Saved 83%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

  • delirious_owl@discuss.online
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    20 days ago

    We can make synthetic methane with renewable energy though. I don’t have a problem with building such infrastructure becsuse it can be used with renewable energy

    • Nik282000
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      20 days ago

      Unless the round trip efficiency of synthesized methane (synthesis, transportation and re-capture) is better than solar/hydro/nuke electricity it doesn’t make sense build our own hydrocarbons. There are also the cumulative health effects of burning methane in your house and that it is serious greenhouse gas.

      • delirious_owl@discuss.online
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        20 days ago

        Its a battery. It makes more sense than electricity because its extremely energy dense, can be transported long distances far more efficiently than electricity, and can be stored indefinitely in low-tech gas tanks instead of electrical batteries

        • Nik282000
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          19 days ago

          Methane has to be compressed for both transportation in pipes and storage in tanks, a very energy expensive process. Or it can be chilled down and condensed to a liquid for bulk transportation in ships, also a very energy expensive process. Every single joint and valve in the distribution network has the potential to leak, and many of them do, the same goes for storage tanks. Also pressure regulators (like the one on the side of your house) have to vent to bring down the pressure when the network house pressure is too high.

          Natural gas distribution networks are extremely leaky.

          • Rivalarrival@lemmy.today
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            19 days ago

            Also pressure regulators (like the one on the side of your house) have to vent to bring down the pressure when the network is too high.

            No. They have to vent if your household pressure is too high. If, for example, cold gas was admitted into your lines, and that gas heated up, the pressure in your lines would increase. The regulator can’t push that gas back into the high pressure main, so the regulator would have to bleed off the excess pressure.

  • TechNerdWizard42@lemmy.world
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    20 days ago

    Natural gas heating is very efficient and huge BTUs for low cost. When you live where it actually gets cold, it’s important. As is heating water. Cooking at restaurants also important.

    Not everything is binary. We don’t need 100% renewables and 0% gas and 0% plastic and 0% ICE vehicles. Renewable energy is 68% in Canada or 20% in the USA in terms of energy production. Getting those USA numbers to 50% or both to 80% is more important.

    FYI, in the USA natural gas is about 32% of the USA’s energy use. 15% of natural gas is used by residences. That’s 4.8% of the power. Which means this entire debate goes out the window if you just installed 5% more solar or wind energy.

    Making people fight and become tribal over trivial things that mean nothing is an easy way to prevent anything from happening. Idiots are fighting over trying to reduce 4.8% of energy that is perfectly fine at what it’s doing. Meanwhile the natural gas companies are happy to keep supplying the remaining 27% of the USAs entire power via gas, and not a damn thing is being done. Use your energy to get that 27% down to 22% and you’ve done better than you ever will with demanding residences be built with shitty alternatives.

      • kent_eh
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        20 days ago

        We actually do need 0% emissions and 100% renewables.

        Yes. The sooner the better.

        But on the way there we have to take the wins we can get and not let perfect be the enemy of good.

        • LeFantome@programming.dev
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          20 days ago

          The way we truly save the world from everything is exactly your philosophy. Continuously improve. Don’t refuse to do good things that are not perfect ( unless your true goal is to do nothing ).

      • TechNerdWizard42@lemmy.world
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        20 days ago

        Which is not physically possible as most modern life relies on things that are not renewable.

        The little that is done to reduce on a personal scale is meaningless compared to what is needed to be done globally and by industry.

        Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do your part. But it’s stupid to believe any of it will help at all. At best it causes discourse for no reason. At worst, you’re being played as a fool by large corporations to put off actual change longer and longer.

        And just because it seems Lemmy can’t seem to understand not everything is binary, I have had 10KW of solar for 15 years. I have had hybrid cars for 20 years. I’ve had pure electric cars for 13 years. I am one of the few that have installed heat pumps. I also have electric (solar) powered radiant water heating because water is a good energy store. I do way more than your average person. But I’m not stupid enough to think “0 emmisions” is possible. And nobody after a 5 minute google shouldn’t understand commercial and industrial energy usage versus residential usage.

        • heavy@sh.itjust.works
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          20 days ago

          Not that it matters, but I don’t think you should be getting down voted for expressing your perspective. I will say it comes off like you’re some kind of captain planet villain advocating for gas expansion.