• atro_city@fedia.io
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    3 months ago

    What does this even mean?

    “Men lose their mind” = they start shouting and shitting on the floor in disbelief?

    “Daughters aren’t as forgiving as their wives”: forgiving what exactly? Mistakes?

    It’s like they think they’re saying something profound and agreeing with each other but saying nothing of value (as is natural on twitter).

    • 2ugly2live@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      I think it’s speaking about women who “allow” bad behavior.

      Like, maybe the man’s mom used to do all his chores for him without asking, so he comes to expect it. His wife, who is not his mother, says he has to do his own laundry and maybe puts their foot down about the whole “weaponized incompetence” some men use. The man is surprised, because he didn’t expect his wife to be “less forgiving” than this mother, who just gave us and did it for him.

      For daughters, sometimes daughters (or just children in general) , as an outside observer to the relationship, can tell that one parent is shit (in this case, the father). While the wife may go, “He didn’t meant it, he’s just tired,” the daughter may not be “as forgiving” and just say he is abusive.

      However, I don’t think either of these are gender specific. Just depnsends on the dynamic at play.

      • JimmyMcGill@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Yes. I mean I’m a man and I had no trouble understanding the post but for some reason it is very hard for some people

          • somethingsnappy@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            You’re on the internet talking about a thread from xitter. Congrats for living in a cave with only good role models, but I think you should be able to see over the fence a little.

      • Hackerman_uwu@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Or, you know, kids haven’t got the same grasp of adult life that grown ups do.

        I have a 23 year old daughter. She has a job, an education, is currently travelling the world and she’s still really very immature in many ways. I know there be will be people that age right now reading this and hating it and you know you’re really still very far away from really getting this but there is SO much in life that we have to learn to let go. SO many failures of our own and of others that we need to find a way to live with. It took me a long, long time to really get to the point where I was able to forgive the world for being a place where certain bad things had happened. That’s the thing that finally allowed me to keep looking for goodness, to struggle for hope instead of being angry with reality. You look deep into any maladjustment be it drug addiction, eating disorders, rage, pretty much any negative compulsion - deep down in there it’s this. It’s this inability to forgive the world for being a place where bad things can happen. Which is clearly a child-like response to not getting our way. Only now “getting our way”, like it’s not that you were refused a treat but rather you’re waching the bigger part of humanity suffer and realising you’re near powerless to do anything about it. Two things can be true. The world can be a bad place sometimes but it can also be good. If you can’t forgive it for its failings you’ll struggle to see the good side.

        • 2ugly2live@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          That’s why I said “sometimes” and not, “every child, everywhere, all the time.”

          Your 23 year old may be really immature still, some kids are not. Depends on the kiddo. However, I don’t think forgiving abusive parents is a lesson that should be taught. You can hold someone accountable without hating the rest of the world. I can not forgive an abusive parent and still see the good side of things without being a doormat.

    • MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz
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      3 months ago

      I’m right there with you. I’m utterly confused.

      What is there to forgive? Is thore some inherent shittyness in men that needs overlooking on the part of women, or suppressing on the part of men?

      Or is this just talking about how gender equality as improved with each generation, so as the same dudes age, the younger women in their lives are asking them to be more and more fair?

        • MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz
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          3 months ago

          Absolutely, but those shouldn’t be overlooked by anyone, and forgiven only once someone has made the effort to unlearn that shit.

          Is the “profound” message here really just that as younger women enter the lives of their aging husbands and then fathers, they tolerate less and less of the historical sexist shittyness, as they’ve grown up a generation later than the previous main female figure in their lives?

          Scoffing when asked to change ones behaviour for the better is not a gendered charachter fault. No-one likes being informed that something they’ve been doing, and consider normal, is bad, actually.

          And that’s not a reason not to improve. The opposite. It’s a reason to embrace self-improvement, and to learn to do ones best to skip the denial phase.

          Something I think most people, of both genders, can be very good at if they want to be.

          • porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml
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            3 months ago

            Is the “profound” message here really just that as younger women enter the lives of their aging husbands and then fathers, they tolerate less and less of the historical sexist shittyness

            I’m not sure how profound it’s “supposed” to be, but I think that’s basically the message, that’s what I took from it at least.

      • DomeGuy@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        It’s worse than that. It’s a sexist assertion that all men model the worst of our gender while all women model the best of theirs, which aggrivatingly dismisses feminist progressive men and excusing sexist regressive women.

        DomeWife is not the one teaching DomeBaby about bodily autonomy or feminism, though she does have plenty of examples of women being sexist to our manly kith and kin.

      • elidoz@lemmy.ml
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        3 months ago

        this comment is difficult to read because I can’t figure out if you’re sarcastic or not, it would make sense either way and I have no way of knowing

      • atro_city@fedia.io
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        3 months ago

        Not just that, they are worse than women in every way. (I want equality btw).

  • CptEnder@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Why in earth would I compare the woman I’m blasting with my mother?! That’s kinda weird.

  • Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    I hate that I have to raise a son in an environment that is becoming so hateful towards men just for existing. I saw a picture of a woman at a protest against a child molester and she had a sign that says “not all men but it’s ALWAYS a man” As someone who was molested by a woman when I was a kid, that shit is offensive and aggressive.

      • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org
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        3 months ago

        This shit is why its hard to get men onto the left.

        Exactly. You have one side that doesn’t give a shit about men’s issues and demonizes them for it and the other side that also doesn’t give a shit about men’s issues but gives the occasional lip service or pretends to listen on occasion.

        Neither is a good choice, but one is not openly hostile, and that makes it easy to fall that way.

        • drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          And it’s worse because nonone is asking for a lot. Listening to men won’t set us back fifty years. It would actually bring more men into the leftist fold. But of course that is not what it’s about to them.

      • RestrictedAccount@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        I went to college in the 80’s. I had a history teacher explain to me how the Civil War and Jim Crow were not about gaining economic advantage from subjugation of free labor, but rather white men keeping white women in their place by demonizing black men.

        I needed an A, and I got one. I told her what she wanted to hear. Not proud of that, but not ashamed either.

        That crap was allowed to fester because it was only a few crazy people. Then it grew enough to spawn the likes of Trump.

        I recommend this excellent book, “Jesus and John Wayne” by Kristin Du Mez who brings receipts for the argument that disaffected people were looking for a Trump to show up. (She is an evangelical who is not a fan of autocracy)

        All this to say, you are correct.

    • MataVatnik@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Yeah, modern narratives basically teach men to hate themselves. I drank the Kool aid until my early 20s until I dated a narcissists and came to the realization that abusive pieces of shit come in all genders. And then when I need to turn to look for a role model there is nothing out there except right wing douche bags. Then we worry why young men gravitate towards the alt right.

    • stebo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      3 months ago

      think about how it must have felt for all those mothers who had to raise a daughter in an environment that has always been so hateful towards women…

          • DomeGuy@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            Yes, you did. In approximately the same way that All Lives Matter was just a dog-whistley way of saying “No they don’t” to Black Lives Matter.

            When someone says I suffer from THING, responding with other people suffer too as your primary message is always a dismissal of the person’s suffering.

            If you want to avoid the inferred message, include an affirmative message of acknowledgement, like “nobody should suffer like that.”

            • stebo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              3 months ago

              If we’re going to compare this to BLM then you said something amongst the lines of “White people have to grow up in a world where everyone hates them.” and I responded “Actually, black people have had it worse.”

              If you are a cis white straight man, you are not oppressed. Stop trying to be.

              • redisdead@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                I’ve had the cops called on me for watching my nephew at the park.

                Go fuck yourself you fucking fuck.

              • DomeGuy@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                The plane rules of rhetoric do not change simply because a thing is not oppression. I’m just a rando adding comment to down vote to express what I think was done wrong.

                Thosen two quotes are an excellent example of my principle, actually. The second one when given as a response to the first carries all the factionalist racism and denial of your last line.

                • stebo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  3 months ago

                  so I’m racist now for saying white men are not not all white men are oppressed? alright then sure bud

              • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org
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                3 months ago

                If you are a cis white straight man, you are not oppressed. Stop trying to be.

                The entire model you are operating on has it’s roots in Marxist class conflict. Broadly the problem with that is that it was created in terms of economic class, and economic class is where it works best (or possibly at all). It can be shoehorned into other dynamics, but it only really works to the degree that that dynamic is also a proxy for economic class.

                For example, it works passably well for race in the US because broadly speaking race is a decent proxy for economic class in 21st century America, though less of one than it used to be. It’s a bad fit for sex or gender precisely because those things do not function as a proxy for economic class at all.

                • stebo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  3 months ago

                  the hell are you on about? this discussion was about men claiming everybody hates them, even though they’re privileged on most aspects of life. why do you start rambling about the working class?

          • drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            Yeah you are. Real nice that you expect us to raise a generation of boys to have to see themselves as monsters.

            • stebo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              3 months ago

              No one is asking them to see themselves as monsters? You’re creating a problem where there isn’t one.

            • JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee
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              3 months ago

              No one is telling boys that they are monsters.

              It is helpful that they know there are humans in the world who behave like monsters, and that some of them are men who target people who they perceive to be weaker than themselves.

              So children, women, other men who are either physically smaller or in a lower position of power. That’s what they need to know. So they can protect themselves, and help stop others from becoming someone else’s monster if the opportunity arises.

              Doing things like speaking out against sexual harassment, and calling out bullying behavior, this is everyone’s responsibility btw. Not just men’s and boys, but this is what needs to be taught so world can suck less.

      • atro_city@fedia.io
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        3 months ago

        Women are the most hated people the world over. No advantages, only downsides. Any man to ever walk the earth can never experience the equivalent horrors of being despised as much as a woman.

        Edit: /s. Do people seriously think this way?

        • ObjectivityIncarnate@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          You’re massively ignorant of just how little the world cares about the suffering of males. The same amount of harm to a female will, ten out of ten times, generate more sympathy and outrage than that same harm to a male.

          When Boko Haram attacked hundreds of thousands of children, the only reports that generated any outrage were the ones talking only about girls being kidnapped, even though they murdered all the boys. Hell, when the victims were all male, the sex wasn’t even stated in the articles, it’s just “students” etc. But every single time girls were victimized, you’d better believe “girls” or “schoolgirls” was explicitly used. The reason is simple–people in general actually give a shit about girls.

          The empathy gap between the sexes is very real, and your comment is a perfect example of it.

          • atro_city@fedia.io
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            3 months ago

            I really should’ve used /s . I thought the hyperbole would make it obvious, but it’s a little sad we live in the world where people might actually truly believe it.

        • DomeGuy@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          I can’t tell if this is an example of Poe’s law or why it’s a thing.

          • atro_city@fedia.io
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            3 months ago

            It was supposed to be hyperbolic and sarcastic, but it looks like such beliefs can actually be held.

            • DomeGuy@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Sarcasm and hyperbole are two of my favorite things, but Poe’s ls is a real thing.

              Without a clear indicator of intent, it’s impossible to distinguish snark from extremism

    • chuckleslord@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Damn, I can’t tell if this is honest or some really deep cutting sarcasm/satire.

      Edit: the autism got me again

      • ObjectivityIncarnate@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        You could not have proven their point more strongly if you tried.

        Fact is, even if it was “always a man”, the fact of the matter is that the vast, vast majority of men don’t do it, making the assumptions about men not only immoral, but inaccurate.

        White supremacists use the exact same logic, pointing at crime statistics, to justify prejudice toward black people. This is the male sex version of “around blacks never relax”, nothing more, don’t pretend otherwise.

        • Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          I’m a man, I’m not a rapist. In fact I’m the survivor of childhood sexual abuse. It’s absurdly offensive to me to be called the thing I hate most, an rapist. And I hate that I’m fair game at being called that, simply because I was born the “bad gender”.

          The thing is I like being a man, I’m proud to be a man, I’m happy with my life. but even saying that makes people look at you weird. I have no idea why.

          • elidoz@lemmy.ml
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            3 months ago

            another thing that I really dislike is that men are looked at weird when they say they like children, often assuming in a sexual way

            our whole species is genetically built to find children cute, we literally have no other choice

            • Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              My daughter is 13 now and I get weird looks when I hold her hand on hug her in public. She’s a huge daddy’s girl so she’s very affectionate, and I hate the weird looks old ladies give me

        • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org
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          3 months ago

          White supremacists use the exact same logic, pointing at crime statistics, to justify prejudice toward black people. This is the male sex version of “around blacks never relax”, nothing more, don’t pretend otherwise.

          Often including literally the same data from the same source, just broken down by gender instead of race. You see UCR crime stats are perfectly reasonable for drawing population level conclusions from when talking about sex, but are deeply flawed to the point of uselessness when talking about race.

          But men and black folks share a lot when it comes to the criminal justice system. For example, if I asked you for some data to use as a demonstration that the criminal justice system is unfairly biased against black folks (or for white folks) you could name off a litany of statistics. Essentially every one of those examples also has a gender gap, and it’s against men. For many of them the gender gap is larger than the racial one.

      • Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        See it’s funny how it’s always men who take criticism for being immature and never ever women. My ex was ridiculously stunted. She was a capricious, gas lighting brat. The ratio of immature men to women out there is pretty even, yet it’s a running joke that men are the immature ones. My ex couldn’t even cook herself lunch, hold a job, and expected me to just hand her money like I’m her dad. Plenty of women out there like that too, just as many as there are man boys out there who think their wives are their mom. But it’s only ever a thing to go after the men on this issue

      • killingspark@feddit.org
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        3 months ago

        If it’s truly “not all men” then you don’t need to take everything online at face value if you aren’t one of the toxic men that this post is addressing.

        Using the word men to criticise only the toxic ones and telling all the ones that aren’t toxic to just not feel addressed is pretty weird to me.

        • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org
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          3 months ago

          Especially when if one were to criticize women this same logic very definitely would not be applied.

      • Halosheep@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        I once read a comment that said something like, “if your post would be considered racist if you wrote ‘black men’ instead of just ‘men’, then it’s very likely misandrist.”

        Good words to live by if you aren’t an asshole.