Steam revenue estimated 2024: $10.8B
Google Play Store gaming revenue 2024: ~$31B
Why doesn’t Valve want a part of that? I mean they already have an Android app. Several, actually. I realize there’s some amount of investment but surely the payoff is worth it, and they have the necessary funds and skills? I mean if F-Droid can do it with nothing but volunteers and grants…?
Certainly plenty of games won’t lend themselves well to the mobile experience but also plenty of them do.
From a personal perspective: I don’t really care a whole lot for mobile games but I do like Balatro and want to play it on my phone, but if I want to do that I have to buy another license, which I can’t even do because I don’t run Google Play Services.
Epic got in on this already. Where’s Valve?
Edit: my reflections on this conversation:
Valve could distribute their own app like Epic but they’d also probably have to remove it from the Play Store because now a cross-platform game would give them an Android version, thus breaking Google’s ToS. So would doing such a thing outweigh lost sales from the Google version, and would it impact customer satisfaction? I wonder how many people are actually purchasing PC games in the Steam Android app…?
The mobile and PC gaming markets are very different, both in terms of monetisation and what games people expect to play.
If Valve wanted to get into the mobile games industry they’d basically be starting from scratch, and I don’t think it’s a market they’re particularly interested in.
You’re also assuming that buying a game on PC steam will also give you a license to play that game on android, which isn’t a given. I think many games have completely different monetisation models on mobile vs pc, so sharing between platforms like that wouldn’t make sense.
You’re also assuming that buying a game on PC steam will also give you a license to play that game on android, which isn’t a given.
It wasn’t an assumption it was hypothetical.
Valve didn’t expand Steam into Linux to gain market share in a new market, Valve did it because it is a hedge in case Windows becomes toxic to Steam. There is now a fallback position if Steam is locked out of Windows, and I expect Valve to continue to build in this position.
As for Android, there isn’t a successful second app store that isn’t tied to hardware; even Amazon quit Android. I don’t think Valve sees Android expansion as commercialy viable.
(A few days ago I skimmed a super cool post about Steam’s relationship with Linux that says what you’re saying and now I want to give it a thorough read but I can’t find it
. If anyone remembers and has a link to it I’d be super happy 
)Do you mean this article? https://thelibre.news/on-the-history-of-valve-and-linux/
Yes yes that’s it! I’m happy now ~ thanks!
F-Droid?
F-Droid’s market share is a rounding error compared to Google’s. Just because another app store exists doesn’t mean there is significant competition between app stores.
That’s not what you said though. You said there is no successful second app store and that’s demonstrably untrue. Just because it isn’t widely used doesn’t mean it can’t be.
For a company like Valve, they are going to need greater adoption than what F-Droid has to be viable.
And I didn’t say that a successful app store was impossible, just improbable enough that it doesn’t justify investing in Android and that previous failures show how hard this is. Valve is still a for profit company and will make decisions to make money.
For a company like Valve, they are going to need greater adoption than what F-Droid has to be viable.
They really don’t. Valve is a private company and doesn’t need all of the money. Just 30%
An android app store is going to cost more than $0 to make.
That’s also not what they said. They said there’s no successful second app store that isn’t tied to hardware, which is true. F-Droid exists, but by no metric would it be considered seriously by anyone as a successful competitor to Google. And if there is somebody who thinks that, then you should give me their number, I have this investment idea that is guaranteed to give double or even triple returns, all I need is a seed investment of, say, $20k.
You said there is no successful second app store
it isn’t widely used
So, it’s not successful, but it could be. So they were in fact correct that it’s not successful.
I use fdroid, so I know exactly how badly administered it is compared to Play. There are apps that haven’t gotten updated in months or years, despite the app on Play or Github being much newer. There are typo-squatting apps, and apps uploaded by people who do not own or manage those programs. It’s a wild west experience, and the average android phone user isn’t going to know enough to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Valve would be better off doing their own android offshoot OS.
Valve didn’t expand Steam into Linux to gain market share in a new market
…I didn’t say anything about Linux?
there isn’t a successful second app store that isn’t tied to hardware
That doesn’t mean there couldn’t be.
even Amazon quit Android
Well everything I’ve read about Amazon indicates that it was atrocious for everyone so that’s unsurprising.
Bro why are you being so argumentative? Person gave you a well thought out response, wasn’t even a tone to him but you fire back like he just insulted a core belief
Bro why are you being so argumentative?
What are you talking about? Do you expect me to just reply to everyone who provides a response “Yes, you’re correct” and move on? Am I not allowed to participate in the discussion I started?
If that is what you’re intending then it is not coming off that way.
I’m sorry you feel that way, I don’t know what to do about that.
Maybe, just maybe, they are waiting for proton for ARM to be a thing.
Imagine having actually a big percentage of your steam games just work on android. Now that would be disruptive for the market.
If it worked like I imagine it would.
Knowing Valve, they wouldn’t wait but build the thing.
Personally, I’d be happy to have another reputable place to buy Android games that isn’t Google Play, Amazon or Epic Games.
It’s not that simple. Proton implements the Windows API functions required to run a Windows game on x64-based Linux, but it’s not a CPU emulator. Emulating x64 on ARM at the speeds required by a game is virtually impossible.
If Steam comes to ARM / Android, it would have to be a whole separate ecosystem of games. But Valve is late to the game there since we already have several players on that market, not least the standard Google Play Store.
Emulating x64 on ARM at the speeds required by a game is virtually impossible.
This has been done and it works reasonably well on a case by case basis.
Much like protondb they have a list of confirmed broken and working games.
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Thats a possibly I didnt think of. My thought were with Deckard, ARM laptops, or possibly better mac support cause they use ARM now.
I think that’s the more likely scenario. They plan to transition their hardware to ARM processors.
Valve is in the business of selling PC games. Moving into a new market wouldn’t be trivial, and Google has put up a lot of barriers to make it especially difficult for a third-party app store to challenge their monopoly.
Valve is in the business of selling PC games.
They support games for Windows, Mac and Linux. And I’m sure they would support them for PS, Nintendo and Xbox if they weren’t created with explicit intention of not allowing that sort of thing. Android is the only market they could feasibly enter and choose not to.
Moving into a new market wouldn’t be trivial
No but it also wouldn’t be that difficult for a company with Valve’s resources, and would be extremely lucrative.
Google has put up a lot of barriers to make it especially difficult for a third-party app store to challenge their monopoly.
Such as?
Paragraph 4.5 of Google Play’s Developer Distribution Agreement is a rather large barrier. I’ll paste it here:
4.5 You may not use Google Play to distribute or make available any Product that has a purpose that facilitates the distribution of software applications and games for use on Android devices outside of Google Play.
I’d wager the majority of Android users have never downloaded an application other than from the Google Play Store. Even among those who would try, a large amount of them would probably get scared off by the “unverified sources” popup Android gives you if you try to install an app in another manner.
That’s like saying Amazon has a “barrier” to online sales because they refuse to allow Target to sell products on their site for free. They’re competing services, why would they allow that?
I’d wager the majority of Android users have never downloaded an application other than from the Google Play Store.
Developers most often distribute software outside of official repos in Windows and MacOS, and they do so successfully.
It’s not that hard, you just follow the prompts on the screen.
I think you’re overestimating the tech savvyness of the average person :P
The average user already uses Windows and/or MacOS, and I would argue those installation procedures are far more complicated.
The average person has never had to install Windows or MacOS, they buy a computer with it pre-installed. And they buy phones with Google Play pre-installed.
We’re not talking about installing an operating system. I’m not suggesting Steam create their own OS (although they’re also doing that). We’re talking about installing an app.
They support games for Windows, Mac and Linux.
Those are all PC platforms. And Mac support is mostly dead after what Apple did.
Yes, I am aware. Which is why I continued my explanation after that.
No but it also wouldn’t be that difficult
Why would you think that? Of course it would be difficult, it’s a massive undertaking.
Amazon and Epic have both tried to launch their own Android storefronts. Neither one has been even remotely successful. Amazon will be shutting theirs down soon.
Why would you think that?
For the reason I mentioned in the OP. Because it’s been done before, several times. Including by Epic, with a fraction of Valve’s resources.
Amazon and Epic have both tried to launch their own Android storefronts
Everything I’ve read about the Amazon store indicates that it sucks on every level, for all parties.
The Epic Store is only a few months old. And they can’t even make a decent or profitable app for PC so I’d be very unsurprised if their mobile app is also trash.
Amazon and Epic both failed because it is not easy to move into a market that Google has such a dominant monopoly over. It’s not that simple.
Epic has not failed (yet). As I just said, it’s only been around for a few months.
I disagree about Amazon for reasons I’ve already stated so we’ll have to agree to disagree on that.
Why’d you even make this thread if you were just going to reject any answers given to you?
I’m not rejecting anything. It’s called a discussion. They could very well be right. I just disagree.
I agree with you however I have one barrier to entry that others haven’t elaborated on.
Firstly, I’ll say how they could overcome some of the other challenges mentioned.
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Steam would just have to add the ability for developers to upload android builds of games alongside the windows, Linux, Mac builds. All of a sudden, users would have huge, existing libraries of games. Most games built with Unity can target Android. I suspect a lot of indie developers would happily add the build.
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Leaks have implied they were working on an arm emulator/translation layer but I assume this had to do with VR prototyping. Possibly the same effect as above but so many more configurations to target, they couldn’t handle it the way they do with steam deck.
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Require/recommend to users to use a controller on Android
If either or both of those first 2 points succeed, Valve doesn’t need to do much more to ensure the utility of Steam games on Android. PC gamers are considered among the most willing and able to jump through hoops for a result. Going to a website to download the steam store plus a little warning on Android wouldn’t stop a reasonable percentage of them. It wouldn’t stop me.
It’s almost 0 risk to them, right? Right? I don’t think so.
Here’s the big barrier I mentioned. I assume they have a not-insignificant number of sales through the the android app. If they start allowing users to install android games, Google is going to stop them from having purchases in their play store app. And while I said that users would install their app from a website, what percentage of users would do it? How many fewer PC game sales would they make (from the Play Store app) in order to let their current users play games on Android?
Additionally, what would Steam do if they started getting android-only games being submitted. Or mobile-quality games dominating their store? Does this dilute Steam’s identity?
Additionally, it might be something they’ve discussed but they would have rather focused on steam deck-type gaming for mobile. Or perhaps an ARM-based steam OS+steamdeck approach would make more sense for them and then the difficulty/cost (and opportunity cost) increases do instead they simply don’t pursue it.
The cross-buy thing is something that Gog or Epic could do but they don’t have nearly the same “customer profile” (size, behaviour etc) so it isn’t as likely to have the same impact.
Regardless, in my view you’ve asked a great question and it’s a solid idea.
If they start allowing users to install android games, Google is going to stop them from having anything useful in their play store app.
They would have to distribute it independently. Google would have no say in the matter.
what would Steam do if they started getting android-only games being submitted. Or mobile-quality games dominating their store?
…cash their checks? I don’t understand the question. That’s the point.
it might be something they’ve discussed but they would have rather focused on steam deck-type gaming for mobile.
perhaps an ARM-based steam OS+steamdeck approach would make more sense
…why not both?
Although Valve seems to like staying in their lane so that seems like the most likely explanation.
They would have to distribute it independently. Google would have no say in the matter.
That’s exactly my point. The current app lets you buy PC games despite being distributed through the store. If you can buy Android games on it, well, I doubt Google will ignore it. And even if Google was okay with it, there’s no way to easily communicate to users who start using the app there that they need to download another app from a website.
I’m not saying it’s a bad idea. I’m just saying I think there are reasons they haven’t done it (yet?). I think they certainly must have considered it. I’ve certainly been wondering about it for a long while too.
why not both?
Sure. I would assume they would do it the same way as steam deck, where that’s the priority. The wide variety of phone specs on the market might have an impact on how they could support it etc.
That’s exactly my point. The current app lets you buy PC games despite being distributed through the store.
And they could continue doing so while also distributing a separate app independently that allows you to buy Android games.
Notice if you try to buy a movie from Amazon on Google TV they redirect you to the website. They could do the same or redirect you to the non-Google version.
I’m just saying I think there are reasons they haven’t done it (yet?)
I agree, I just find it very curious what those reasons are.
I don’t think they would get away with selling games in the app if games were playable on Android (demonstrating Android compatibility). I think they would have to do what Amazon kindle does and tell you to go buy your game somewhere else.
Edit: Here’s the policy. You might be right but it looks like a grey area to me.
https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/9858738?sjid=15164020873047119237-NC&visit_id=638803514547940454-2089146208&rd=1I don’t think they would get away with selling games in the app if games were playable on Android
I’m saying they would need a separate app to purchase, install and play Android games.
Oh… I see!
I personally prefer the “also play PC games on Android” strategy so was looking at it from that angle.
Now that I’m thinking about it they’d probably have to de-list those cross-platform games from the Google app or make them unavailable, which would probably lead to a lot of confusion.
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Valve have supposedly been experimenting with x86 emulation on ARM for their next VR headset. So I think they might actually be well on their way to enter that market. Probably with the plan of making PC games playable on Android.
It’s a pain to get other app stores to get uptake on Android since Google refuses to let other app stores be distributed via Google Play. So if Steam starts to distribute games for Android, the Steam app would be thrown out from Google Play.
It’s the same reason why the F-droids user base is so small and will never reach the main public. As soon as your app store needs to be installed via a third party web site, you have lost.
Sure, but Steam can leverage their already-massive 132M userbase, just like Epic has (only much bigger). Put an announcement on the Steam store and client pages. Show a pop-up when someone opens the website from an Android device, etc. I mean certainly they wouldn’t achieve the same level of success as Google who has their store installed on literally every Android device, but even a tiny fraction of their revenue would be an enormous boon to Steam.
So if Steam starts to distribute games for Android, the Steam app would be thrown out from Google Play.
That’s not how that works. They only throw it out if you use the app in the app store to distribute other apps. They don’t ban the entire company from distributing any software.
They don’t ban the entire company from distributing any software.
They can do whatever, it’s their store.
Keep in mind that Epic Games v. Google has made Google add features to allow alternative app stores on Android… which automatically removes the monopoly argument and lets Google ban anyone they want from the Google Play store.
They can do whatever, it’s their store.
No. They can’t.
which…lets Google ban anyone they want from the Google Play store
No it didn’t.
Read the case, the whole thing started because Google banned Epic from the Play store, and the only reason for it to become a case, was the monopolistic position. That’s gone now, they’re free to refuse service to whoever they want, whenever they want, for no reason at all… and if you don’t agree, go sue them, they’ll show you the precedent followed by the door.
I’m very familiar with the case.
and the only reason for it to become a case, was the monopolistic position.
The reason it became a case is because Epic violated the ToS (intentionally).
That’s gone now, they’re free to refuse service to whoever they want, whenever they want, for no reason at all…
…what is gone, exactly? You think this settlement suddenly made them no longer a monopoly? That’s not how that works. Further, companies that are not monopolies ALSO have to comply with their own ToS, so I’m honestly very confused about what you’re trying to say here.
what is gone, exactly?
By adding support for alternate stores, the monopoly argument is gone: everyone can build their own store now. Meaning, everyone with a store can kick out anyone else, and tell them to just build their own.
comply with their own ToS
…which they can change at any moment, but don’t really need to; most ToS include clauses about refusing service without having to explain why. If you ever agree to a ToS, better make sure they’re even supposed to notify you if they ever decide to cut you off.
Because Valve has gone to fair lengths to not become shit, and they probably don’t want to start now.
I don’t understand what that has to do with the discussion.
Google has made quite some effort making android a mess for anything but themselves. If I were valve/steam I would not want to maintain a store on there
Seems to work just fine for me and all of my 3rd party apps and stores 🤷
Android is probably the least consistent os out there. And that every phone manufacturer has to have their own spin on it doesn’t help. You got lucky, or some bog standard big brand thing
It’s called diversity. It has its drawbacks but for the most part it works just fine. That’s why it’s the most popular mobile OS in the world.
No, it’s the most popular because it’s free and can be stuffed onto basically anything while being pushed by the largest advertising company on the planet. Diversity has nothing to do with this
It can also be delivered with said advertising company completely removed from the system. Because it’s open source.
Did you notice how the alternative wasn’t even involved in this discussion? Why do you think that is?
Yes, I imagine you don’t. Which is probably why you asked the question in the first place.
…would you like to explain?
You won’t get a notification unless I reply directly to you, so see my reply to the other person.
They’re implying that the entire android software ecosystem is shit and should be avoided
Not Android specifically, I’m talking mobile games in general. I’m on iOS, and it’s not any better here. Mobile games are usually free for a reason, and that reason is that they are loaded with spyware, ads, and shitty monetization practices that I very highly doubt the majority of PC gamers on Windows, Linux, or MacOS would like to see become more prevalent on their platform.
And I while I don’t think Valve is some benevolent corporate overlord that’s looking out for what’s best for us, I do think they know how to extract a lot of value out of PC gamers for many years, and that’s by generally giving us what we want.
loaded with spyware, ads, and shitty monetization practices
I mean that’s already the case with PC games…? Only slightly better because they are not Google and don’t allow straight-up ads for third-party products and services, which is what most of these “free” mobile games run on anyway. Valve has the potential to make a much better experience.
If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.
If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.
I won’t, because it isn’t a thing and never will be.
What would you suggest they sell on their Android store that users would be so encouraged to install a new store and then what they want?
Steam already has a store on Android, you just can’t play games there because most games on steam either already exist on the native google play store, or aren’t compatible with mobile architectures like Arm64. Most mobiles unlike a arm laptop, have no x86/amd64 emulator which is what those games are compiled as by their developers.
So what’s left?
What would you suggest they sell on their Android store that users would be so encouraged to install a new store and then what they want?
…games?
Steam already has a store on Android
Uhhhh they have an Android app which you can use to buy and manage PC games. That’s not what I’m talking about.
because most games on steam either already exist on the native google play store
…no? Even if they did you’d have to buy 2 licenses instead of 1. As I mentioned in the OP.
Most mobiles unlike a arm laptop, have no x86/amd64 emulator
I’m not suggesting emulation or translation (although that would be great as well), I’m suggesting an app store for selling and installing native Android games.
I’m trying to figure out the gap in the market you’re trying to fill other than “for steam fan boys it would allow us fans of steam games that already exist in a native place, in a non native place!”
Correct me what is going into it that isn’t already somewhere, and who that appeals to?
Or is this just thought experiment?
Well there is that but there’s also the example I gave in the OP where devs could potentially extend their existing games into a new market, increasing their potential audience. A single license would gain a new platform with potential sales opportunities.
I do like Balatro and want to play it on my phone, but if I want to do that I have to buy another license, which I can’t even do because I don’t run Google Play Services
Spoiler: you can use the LÖVE loader to run the “PC version” of Balatro on Android, since it’s all written in Lua.
What more do they need to do besides having Steam Link to let you stream your PC games to your phone?
Aside from the fact that Steam Link is pretty terrible and requires a high-speed local connection, native Android games.
It hasnt needed a local connection for a while. I usually play Civilization over it when out of the house.
I didn’t realize that but it doesn’t change the fact that:
- The PC draws way more power than is needed
- The PC must be powered on (mine draws ~40 watts at idle)
- A monitor has to be plugged in and turned on.
- The aspect ratio on the devices have to match or you’ll get letterboxing.
- If your main display is 4k it will run the game at 4k even if you’re playing on a 720p display so you have to go in and change the graphical settings every time you switch devices.
- In my limited experience it literally just doesn’t even work at all.
- Even if you’re running over the web you’re limited to the strength of your data connection.
It just doesn’t work like it should, in my opinion. Hopefully they can fix this in the future with Steam Machines.
There are some projects to bring steam games to android. Like Pluvia.
And give google 30‰ of what every android user purchases? Nutz!
No, they would have to create and distribute their own app store, just like Epic.
And hows that working out for epic?
Valves strategy of not doing anything new in the last decade while every other publisber shoots themselves in the foot seems to be working pretty well for them.
And hows that working out for epic?
I don’t know, it’s only been around for a few months.
Valves strategy of not doing anything new in the last decade
That’s not their strategy. I mean, among other things you may have heard of this thing called the Steam Deck? Or Family Sharing? SteamOS? Shit there’s a new video every week about Steam Client updates and improvements.
Given the choice between gaming on your phone or a steamdeck, why would anyone choose the phone?
So i guess thats one reason why.
…because a phone fits in your pocket? And it already goes everywhere with you?
Even if you think it’s dumb (which I mostly agree with) Apple alone makes more money from mobile gaming than every other gaming platform combined.
I think it ultimately comes down to having to support another platform ads more work and risk then its worth.
For example theyd have to convince people to essentially break androids walled garden which means valve has to make sure everything they offer for android isnt malicous. Then there is the fact that phones are different specs, more testing, potential customer support … Its a whole can of worms, but valve would gain little. There arent many people who want steam on their phones but dont already have it on pc.
Vavle is good at what they do, they have basically cornered the PC and portable PC markets already, i think not mucking around in an already monopolistic mobile market is a pretty wise business decision on their part overall.
more work and risk then its worth.
It’s worth billions.
theyd have to convince people to essentially break androids walled garden
It’s not anymore a “walled garden” than Windows.
Then there is the fact that phones are different specs, more testing
There are billions of potential PC configurations. Android would be extremely easy by comparison.
valve would gain little
Did I mention billions? 💵
i think not mucking around in an already monopolistic mobile market is a pretty wise business decision on their part overall.
You could be right.
