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The US was happy enough with the Nazis until Japan forced them to take a side
And the USSR was very happy with the Nazis until Germany attacked them.
True, I just hate that the US acts as though they played the biggest part in the war when countries like Canada were there from the start
The US was playing the isolationist card until we got brought into the mess personally, but isn’t that usually how things are? Didn’t Canada go early on because they were part of the Empire still? The US was still needed even if it was late to the party, Churchill himself hinted in his Fight on the Beaches speech about “until, in God’s good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.”
Didn’t Canada go early on because they were part of the Empire still?
That was a true for the first world war but Canada entered the second world war as an independent nation.
And yeah, like the US helped a lot but that’s mostly because they walked in at the end with a fresh army after everyone else had years of fighting. It’s very American exceptionalist to narrow the “victors” of WW2 down to the UK, the USA and the Soviet Union.
The USA played an outsized role in propping the Soviets and British when they were getting curb stomped.
The Soviets played an outsized role fighting the Germans in the east and tying them up and grinding them down.
America played an outsized role in the war in the Pacific and helped the allies win the war in Europe. The pacific was our war, Europe was just a theater.
It’s hard to say the Soviets could have won if the USA hadn’t helped the allies open another front in Europe, but it’s also impossible to say they couldn’t have. Maybe in the absence of lend lease their territory would have been large enough to get themselves off the floor on their own. Who knows. It’s all hypothetical.
They all played their role. Nobody did any of it single handedly.
The USSR was the only country in 1936 to send weapons, planes and tanks to the Republicans in Spanish Civil War who were fighting against fascists supported by Nazi bombings.
The USSR was the only country who, as an alternative to the Munich Agreements, pushed hard to collectively invade the Nazis, which France and Poland refused.
The USSR pushed for the entire 30s for a mutual defense alliance with England, Poland and France against Nazism under the Maxim Litvinov doctrine, offering to send up to a million soldiers to France in exchange for a mutual defense pact, which got denied. Only in 1939 after a decade of exhausting every diplomatic alternative, did Maxim Litvinov get replaced by Molotov (from Molotov-Ribbentrop) to try and hold off the Nazis for as long as possible.
The USSR sent weapons to the Stalinist faction in the Spanish Republic, hoping after the war they would become a puppet state.
The efforts of the Anarchists during the war (establishing stateless, horizontal power structures) were undermining that effort, thus the Stalinists turned on them (and the anti-stalinist Marxist faction) mid-war, calling them ‘secret fascists’ helping the enemy, and proceeded to round them up for execution.
Is the ban necessary? Personally I enjoy the discussions that spring from radically different interpretations of history.
Subscribers of this sub should have or develop the knowledge to judge these comments accordingly.
Lies spread by repetition, not the strength of the point. “Radically different interpretations” are fine; disinfo and fascist apologia is not.
I hope I can make two suggestions about the moderation process.
If you ban a user for disinfo, it would be good if you could ban the specific comment so that the reason is visible in the mod log and the audience can learn what is wrong.
OP was banned as Tankie, almost permanently. You should add Tankie to the sidebar. Fascists and Tankies are totalitarian but not the same thing.
Preserving misinformation has no value.
Red fash are fascists; both the points of Ur-Fascism and that of a palingenetic ultranationalist regime apply to red fash, but I’ll update the rules to make that more explicit.
Thanks.
Should you ever write down your thoughts about the topic in a comment, please let me know if you remember.
lol, lmao even.
“Exhausting every diplomatic alternative” to carve Europe up in the way they wanted to
The US was supplying the UK and France from the very start of the war, ending a near-decade long embargo on munitions export, and Lend-Lease began before Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor.
You couldn’t have said it better. I am getting tired of memes of US being happy enough to profit from either side until they got dragged into WWII by Japan. Even though that is true (private companies with operations on both sides of the Atlantic are the ones who profited more), the US have helped China and the Allies more through lend lease and embargo as you mentioned. It is also important to remember that US ships and German u-boats were already skirmishing for well over a year before WWII, because US ships were supplying UK after France fell.
Under the Cash‑and‑Carry and Lend‑Lease programs, Britain, the Soviet Union, China and others paid for U.S. war material largely with gold.
Those inflows swelled U.S. Treasury gold holdings from about 30 million oz in 1939 to ≈574 million oz—over half of the world’s official gold stock—by 1945.
Contemporary accounts note that by the late‑1940s the United States controlled around 70 % of global gold reserves, a figure that stemmed from wartime payments.
During this time period the US saw a reduction in unemployment by 7% and wages rose 20 to 30% pulling millions of Americans out of poverty.
The GI bill, employment act and housing act were all introduced on the back of this accrued wealth.
Of greatest impact was that these gold reserves allowed the US to set its dollar as the global reserve currency via the Breton Woods system, which led to a persistent balance of payments surplus and cheap overseas borrowing.
In simpler terms, America could borrow at the lowest interest rates since it now had the highest credit rating in the world (turns out people trust you to pay back your loans when you have 70% of the worlds gold stockpiled).
So, while I hear where you’re coming from, I think it’s a stretch to think there weren’t politicians, industrialists and even ordinary citizens who saw that the war was rapidly improving their material circumstances (at least those that were not part of a targeted minority group). I’m sure there was fear the war would show up at their doorstep but it ultimately never did in the way Europe and other nations sustained profound infrastructure loss.
WW2 is what made the US the economic powerhouse it is today. I think that outcome alone would support that there were some, if not many, who didn’t mind seeing the war go on since it worked immensely to their financial benefit.
Bullshit. Read a fucking book.
The US was supplying Allies and building a military industry well before Pearl Harbor. FDR was itching for a reason to join the Allies but popular sentiment was still very anti war.
I’m too inebriated to write an essay, but do yourself a favor and look up:
- Neutrality acts
- Cash and carry
- Lend-lease agreement
An imperialist, an imperialist, and an imperialist put down their differences to fight a nationalist-imperialist?
Isn’t that just how history always has been?
No, not really. Previous large scale wars were civil wars, or, wars of imperialism to carve up other countries for the imperialist powers.
There is some exceptions, but WW1/WW2 is really the first major war between imperialist powers “inter-imperialist war”. WW1 and WW2 are human atrocities that are not comparable to any other war.
A bit strange to ask, but should the Holy Roman Empire be considered an empire at that time?
I am not sure tbh, I know it was Italy and Germany and dissolved during the Napoleonic wars, but beyond that my knowledge of its history is thin.
I guess it also depends how and for what purpose you are defining it as an empire or not.
Wikipedia calls the holy Roman empire a polity, but refers to the first french empire under Napoleon as an empire for whatever that’s worth?
Possibly the naming was aspirational, or a throwback to the Roman empire that controlled most of Europe?
USSR was not imperialist. It never exerted economic violence or exploitation on other countries (was an exporter of resources and importer of manufactured goods), and materially fought fascism in Europe earlier than anyone else such as 1936 support of Antifascists in Spanish Civil War.
In the Russian Civil War, the Russian Bolsheviks seized control of the former empire’s territories and founded the Soviet Union (USSR). Although claiming to be anti-imperialist, it had many similarities with empires. It was involved in many foreign military interventions and in regime change throughout the world, as well as Sovietization. Under Joseph Stalin, the USSR pursued internal colonialism in Central Asia[2] by massive forced resettlement. Under the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany divided eastern Europe between themselves. At the end of World War II, most eastern and central European countries were occupied by the USSR; these Eastern Bloc countries were widely regarded as Soviet satellite states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism
So yes, this is essentially three imperial states joining forces to fight a fourth imperial state (Nazi Germany) which was perceived as an existential threat to them.
Sarah Paine (prof at the us navy war college) made a great point in a video I saw a while back.
WW2 starts. The UK and US are already building prototype four engine bombers, what it takes to attack deep into the continent.
Japan, Germany? Nothing even on the drawing board, much less in prototype production.
Japan and Germany picked a fight with an industrial powerhouse, protected by two oceans, without the means to attack even the coasts of that country in any meaningful way. Literally, even if the entire imperial japanese navy went right for the west coast, they would have lost, and that’s saying their logistics could stretch that far (they couldn’t, literally didn’t have the oil/gas).
The germans were even worse off. And even if you could slap the coasts, lol, what the fuck good is that going to do? There’s THOUSANDS OF MILES of factories rail and resource extraction happening inside the US. It’s the largest producer of refined petroleum at the time.
Japan and Germany never had a farts chance of striking detroit, pittsburgh, toledo, fort worth, hundreds of cities with thousands of factories and mines etc.,
WHAT KIND OF FUCKING MORON DRAWS AN ENEMY LIKE THAT INTO THE FRAY? How fucking dumb do you have to be lol?
Japan was agitated into the war by the USA oil embargo that definitely wasn’t a way by the “peace loving and isolationist” USA to force Japan into attacking first
FDRs top planners already knew Japan was planning to attack and clearly wanted a war with Japan, they just knew they couldnt sell this to an isolationist public unless Japan attacked first
neither of these explains how either germany nor japan thought it could win. choosing to start a military conflict when you have neither the production nor resources to win it is simply stupid.
yeah, the oil embargo was real, just like japan’s manchurian ambitions (which was what precipitated the embargo).
Again, Japan was backed into a corner with the embargo. They thought that Pearl Harbor wouldn’t start a war. So the answer to your question (at least with Japan), is that “they didn’t”.
They thought that Pearl Harbor wouldn’t start a war.
What did they think they were going to accomplish, then?
That it would force USA to negotiations about the oil embargo
If true, that was incredibly dumb of them
Had they managed to sink the entire fleet at port, had the carriers not been put on maneuvers, etc … it might have worked some.
“We just destroyed your entire fleet, if you just turn the oil back on we won’t attack further”
Common bully tactic.
Japan was backed into a corner with the embargo
backed into a corner?
The embargo could have stopped as soon as their imperial ambitions on manchuria ended.
ah, they wanted to steal a chunk of china/korea, AND keep that cheap american crude flowing?
see you don’t get things both ways sparky. They weren’t baked into a corner any more than the US was backed into a corner by opec in the 70s - because being backed into a corner MEANS something. It’s called death ground. This is a real thing, if you were anything but a random schmuck on the internet claiming not to be a cia plant, you might have studied it at the state dept or army war college.
being backed into a corner means you have no other choice; being on death ground - your only option remaining is to fight until the last.
japan was not backed into a corner, any more than it was on death ground - but they’d find out what both those terms meant in 5 short years. think of it, 5 short years to turn the entire production of this continent onto two TEENY TINY targets - japan and germany.
I don’t think you realize how much this undercuts your argument.
They thought they could win because they thought they were the superior people. They each had superficial martial systems while prioritizing loyalty and zealotry. Anyone with a brain was meticulously rooted out and replaced with a goose stepper.
They thought our factories were less than their willpower. They just had to show us what real war was like and we’d falter. We didn’t have the guts to prosecute a war to the end. They drank an industrial sized batch of koolaid and lost to math.
They thought our factories were less than their willpower. They just had to show us what real war was like and we’d falter. We didn’t have the guts to prosecute a war to the end.
which, you’d think of all the countries that suffered horrendously from WW1, everyone would have had their fill of ‘real war’ and fought for diplomacy… anyone who’s viewed as ‘gutless’ after that bloodbath is simply being underestimated.
Provoked my ass. They were invading half of Asia. Also sanctions are hardly an act of war.
You are arguing USA bad so hard you started defending the other empire. The world is not this black and white.
exactly, well put.
Germany wanted to ally with the US as they were very similar - ultra capitalist, white supremacist, genocidal even (Hitler was inspired by Manifest Destiny). That’s why they didn’t think about how to attack the US.
Germany wanted to ally with the US a
bwahahahaha. yeah a little problem there called ROOSEVELT. Adolph hated Roosevelt.
So no, germany never saw that as a real possibility, esp after America First died on Dec 7th.
But to be clear: they did it with intention, they mulled it for 3 fucking days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_declaration_of_war_against_the_United_States
They ‘knew’ what they were doing and did it with zeal. Make no mistake, Germany didn’t want to be allied with the US we know, they wanted a puppet state run by quislings and Lindbergh.
Sadly there are elements in all 3 that also wanted to co-operate with the Nazis. Luckily they weren’t able to be influential enough.
We must always remain vigilant.
Indeed. The US had its German-American Bund and Silvershirts who were admittedly marginal, but a large minority of the population who would’ve been happy to simply sell Germany materiel - or starve the Allies of the same.
A person’s voice is a powerful tool - and stopping the worst from occurring can buy enough time for deeper developments to take root.
“Democracy”
All things are relative, and the standards were… low around WW2.
Consider it the ignominious position of ‘victory by default’
Doesn’t make it a democracy
All things are relative
Yeah, you pick your dictator, very democratic
Also don’t forget where said “democratically” voted leader blatantly ignores the law and uses his power against the people, even those who actually voted for him.
“Communist”
Literacy rose from 20% to 80% between the revolution and WW2. Textbooks were printed in 105 languages. Whatever healthcare could be afforded by the rapidly developing Soviets was free as was education, and land had been redistributed from landlords to peasants. Income inequality plummeted to the lowest values ever seen in the region ever before or after, access to housing and to a job was guaranteed by law.
This isn’t the work of “a few good dictators”, it’s the work of democracy. If there had been a powerful and wealthy ruling class in the USSR, as is the case in the USA, none of those benefits would have materialized. Universal healthcare and education don’t just spawn out of nowhere, believe it or not.
Capitalist Dictatorship (2025 America)
Did they? The capitalists and communists only joined after being attacked. Before that they were happy to ignore or collaborate with the nazis.
I mean, I would say that picking fights they can’t win with more enemies than they could handle is part of the Nazi fuck-up.
Hitler loved Napoleon so much, he even copied his mistakes.
I genuinely believe it’s the same mental illness.
Man… Why’d they have to represent nazism with a dog? 🥺
The communists would have fought alongside you if you only laid off the Pervitin long enough to not decide to ratfuck them for the lulz
The communists fought fascism since 1936 in the Spanish Civil War, and heavily promoted antifascists in Germany such as Rosa Luxembourg or Karl Liebknecht (the former a close friend of Lenin).
The MLs shot us in the back and betrayed us during the Spanish civil war.
They are the rat fucks.
This is so historically illiterate and really dangerously wrong. Why don’t you read a book before you start lying on lemmy.
Communish.
