I’m glad to see this hitting the fucking fan. As much as I hate to say it, PP is right: canadians need to see who is compromised. I’m a staunch left voter, but I wrote my conservative fuckstick MP when the report was first leaked.
Oh I agree: he’s being a typical spineless conservative. The point remains, however, that if there is hard evidence of our MPs literally working with foreign interests, they should be held accountable and the public should know who they are voting for.
Then he can shut the fuck up asking Trudeau to commit a federal crime, and he can work with agencies to contain the members of his party that are named in the reports.
But that would take effort and integrity, the antipod of the conservative party.
The issue is that foreign interference isn’t properly encompassed by the legal system in Canada. The party in charge doesn’t seem to be bothered by this fact, and has done nothing to actively remedy it. They could be setting definitions, and standards for what counts as interference, determining where the bar for intelligence credibility should be set, etc. Instead, they’ve left the door open to interference, and made it clear that when it happens, nothing will be done about it.
Do you think an acting government should be the one who sets the bar on what foreign interference is? That sounds like a huge conflict of interest. What’s wrong with leaving it to the courts to decide?
I think a responsible government would be having an open conversation about it, getting consensus from the other parties, and doing something, rather than nothing. That conversation should have started 7 years ago, when the PM was first briefed on election interference. A responsible government wouldn’t have tried to minimize or bury the issue.
We’ve had two federal elections since the PM was first briefed on interference, and are about to have another without a clear plan for how to deal with compromised parliamentarians. As a citizen, I don’t find that acceptable.
The line that gets trotted out is that interference “didn’t change the outcome of the election” in 2019 and 2021. That is absolutely not a satisfactory threshold for action to be taken. Nobody is talking about how the threshold should be much, much lower. If the current government isn’t making an attempt at defining that threshold in an ethical and non-partisan way, that’s their failure.
To your question, I think egregious examples of foreign compromise should absolutely be criminalized, and handled by the judicial branch. But the legislative branch needs to be empowered to act swiftly to prevent compromised parliamentarians from operating in Ottawa unhindered.
So these are two different things right? Election interference is one thing, but MPs being compromised by a foreign government is another different thing.
The report you’re mentioning about the 2019 and 2021 election interference not impacting the results was not a statement from the government but from third party review. I would agree that that third party review should have been initiated by elections Canada, but I don’t think that the acting government should have had more involvement in that process, I think it should have had less.
When it comes to compromised MPs, it’s more nuanced. If there is hard proof that an MP is compromised, then there is good reason to assume the investigation is over and that the information can be made public (and if they broke a law they should be held accountable by the courts). But if there is only strong suspicion that an MP is compromised that shouldn’t be made public, but I think it does fall onto the leader of the party to make the call on what to do. The trouble is we’re working with information that is part of an active investigation. It’s not a good idea to let an governing party expell MPs from other parties on the grounds of them being involved in an active investigation, that to me sets a dangerous precedent that could be exploited by a governing party to expell rival MPs via baseless investigations that would not hold up in court.
So these are two different things right? Election interference is one thing, but MPs being compromised by a foreign government is another different thing.
They’re not always different. The Han Dong case is an example where they’re intertwined. We know for a fact that Han Dong’s nomination for Liberal candidate in the safe Liberal riding of Don Valley North was influenced by Chinese government pressure on Canadian citizens. It doesn’t properly fall into Elections Canada’s purview. The Liberals only ejected him from their party once it became publicly known that his candidacy was influenced by China. Somehow, he’s still a sitting MP.
I don’t think it should be left up to the leader of the party to make a call on what to do. Liberals w/ Han Dong (and possibly others, we don’t know), and Conservatives, with their leader not even being briefed. There needs to be some other system or mechanism to address foreign compromise that doesn’t rely on the whim of party leaders who have proven that they’ll choose to deal or not deal with interference issues depending on how it might benefit or harm their party.
If RCMP investigations get bound up, and information sealed away for instances of interference that ultimately don’t end up being criminal (like in Han Dong’s case), something should still be done to remove them from Parliament, or censure / warn them, as the circumstance dictates. It seems to me that the secrecy of active investigations functionally acts to shield foreign influence operations from being exposed and properly responded to.
I know what you mean when you say that the government shouldn’t be relied on to investigate itself. At the same time, I think they are the only body right now that can put effective mechanisms in place to deal with this issue. The fact that neither the Liberals nor the Conservatives are trustworthy enough to do this, is neither here nor there. Government should be doing something, and a responsible government that worked for the people would have started 7 years ago.
My hope is that the Election Interference Commission provides sound recommendations that are actionable before the next federal election. However, we’re in a situation where the next federal election could be any day now. This is all happening too late, and I can’t see how that’s anybody but the Liberals’ fault.
I agree that there may need to be better systems in place, but I’m not still convinced that the sitting government should have much direct control over it.
In the Han Dong case as you said he’s now an independent and is unlikely to be re-elected. If there were a better official process by elections Canada or the RCMP ideally a byelection could have been called to replace him.
I just also worry that if that procedure is initiated by the government rather than a third party it could also be abused by a sitting government to force by-elections in favorable ridings to potentially boost seats.
I just struggle with all the criticism because no one is suggesting Elections Canada be beefed up to better handle this, they are instead suggesting that the Liberal government should be doing something. while it could be indirectly assumed that people are asking the Liberal government to pass legislation to reform elections Canada, this is a minority government, any party can table legislation that would aim at doing just that. As far as I know no party has suggested doing that.
Alternatively it could be assumed that the ask is for a minority government have the ability to expell elected MPs, which of course is not something that should be possible. What if a majority vote could expell elected MPs? What would prevent a majority government from expelling the entire opposition party?
I must have missed the part where there was definitive evidence that anyone was compromised. I thought this was still an investigation.
If this has progressed to the stage that the evidence is strong enough than sure the names should be released, but I didn’t think the investigation was at that point.
The alternative is the list of names is released and then it later comes out that a few names were actually innocent but it’s too late to take it back because that incorrect news being public will have ruined their chances or reelection.
That’s what the investigation is. And that’s happening. All parties with the correct access can access that information. What accountability isn’t happening?
I haven’t seen anything that suggests that the Liberal party is mishandling election interference matters that fall under their control.
But election interference related things are not something that the acting government should have influence over. Elections Canada is independent and should be handling anything creditable, and the legal system should be capable of handling any prosecuting.
I strongly stongly stongly believe that the government should not be able to directly influence anything that can change election results.
I’m glad to see this hitting the fucking fan. As much as I hate to say it, PP is right: canadians need to see who is compromised. I’m a staunch left voter, but I wrote my conservative fuckstick MP when the report was first leaked.
If pp cares so much, he can get the security clearance and look at the list himself.
Oh I agree: he’s being a typical spineless conservative. The point remains, however, that if there is hard evidence of our MPs literally working with foreign interests, they should be held accountable and the public should know who they are voting for.
And what? He won’t be able to talk about it. The list should be known by the public before the next election.
Then he can shut the fuck up asking Trudeau to commit a federal crime, and he can work with agencies to contain the members of his party that are named in the reports.
But that would take effort and integrity, the antipod of the conservative party.
That would be irresponsible - this is intelligence, not evidence that would hold up in court.
Trudeau himself says that some of the intel could be wrong.
Of course, if they have irrefutable evidence regarding any individuals, I agree with you.
The issue is that foreign interference isn’t properly encompassed by the legal system in Canada. The party in charge doesn’t seem to be bothered by this fact, and has done nothing to actively remedy it. They could be setting definitions, and standards for what counts as interference, determining where the bar for intelligence credibility should be set, etc. Instead, they’ve left the door open to interference, and made it clear that when it happens, nothing will be done about it.
Do you think an acting government should be the one who sets the bar on what foreign interference is? That sounds like a huge conflict of interest. What’s wrong with leaving it to the courts to decide?
I think a responsible government would be having an open conversation about it, getting consensus from the other parties, and doing something, rather than nothing. That conversation should have started 7 years ago, when the PM was first briefed on election interference. A responsible government wouldn’t have tried to minimize or bury the issue.
We’ve had two federal elections since the PM was first briefed on interference, and are about to have another without a clear plan for how to deal with compromised parliamentarians. As a citizen, I don’t find that acceptable.
The line that gets trotted out is that interference “didn’t change the outcome of the election” in 2019 and 2021. That is absolutely not a satisfactory threshold for action to be taken. Nobody is talking about how the threshold should be much, much lower. If the current government isn’t making an attempt at defining that threshold in an ethical and non-partisan way, that’s their failure.
To your question, I think egregious examples of foreign compromise should absolutely be criminalized, and handled by the judicial branch. But the legislative branch needs to be empowered to act swiftly to prevent compromised parliamentarians from operating in Ottawa unhindered.
So these are two different things right? Election interference is one thing, but MPs being compromised by a foreign government is another different thing.
The report you’re mentioning about the 2019 and 2021 election interference not impacting the results was not a statement from the government but from third party review. I would agree that that third party review should have been initiated by elections Canada, but I don’t think that the acting government should have had more involvement in that process, I think it should have had less.
When it comes to compromised MPs, it’s more nuanced. If there is hard proof that an MP is compromised, then there is good reason to assume the investigation is over and that the information can be made public (and if they broke a law they should be held accountable by the courts). But if there is only strong suspicion that an MP is compromised that shouldn’t be made public, but I think it does fall onto the leader of the party to make the call on what to do. The trouble is we’re working with information that is part of an active investigation. It’s not a good idea to let an governing party expell MPs from other parties on the grounds of them being involved in an active investigation, that to me sets a dangerous precedent that could be exploited by a governing party to expell rival MPs via baseless investigations that would not hold up in court.
They’re not always different. The Han Dong case is an example where they’re intertwined. We know for a fact that Han Dong’s nomination for Liberal candidate in the safe Liberal riding of Don Valley North was influenced by Chinese government pressure on Canadian citizens. It doesn’t properly fall into Elections Canada’s purview. The Liberals only ejected him from their party once it became publicly known that his candidacy was influenced by China. Somehow, he’s still a sitting MP.
I don’t think it should be left up to the leader of the party to make a call on what to do. Liberals w/ Han Dong (and possibly others, we don’t know), and Conservatives, with their leader not even being briefed. There needs to be some other system or mechanism to address foreign compromise that doesn’t rely on the whim of party leaders who have proven that they’ll choose to deal or not deal with interference issues depending on how it might benefit or harm their party.
If RCMP investigations get bound up, and information sealed away for instances of interference that ultimately don’t end up being criminal (like in Han Dong’s case), something should still be done to remove them from Parliament, or censure / warn them, as the circumstance dictates. It seems to me that the secrecy of active investigations functionally acts to shield foreign influence operations from being exposed and properly responded to.
I know what you mean when you say that the government shouldn’t be relied on to investigate itself. At the same time, I think they are the only body right now that can put effective mechanisms in place to deal with this issue. The fact that neither the Liberals nor the Conservatives are trustworthy enough to do this, is neither here nor there. Government should be doing something, and a responsible government that worked for the people would have started 7 years ago.
My hope is that the Election Interference Commission provides sound recommendations that are actionable before the next federal election. However, we’re in a situation where the next federal election could be any day now. This is all happening too late, and I can’t see how that’s anybody but the Liberals’ fault.
I agree that there may need to be better systems in place, but I’m not still convinced that the sitting government should have much direct control over it.
In the Han Dong case as you said he’s now an independent and is unlikely to be re-elected. If there were a better official process by elections Canada or the RCMP ideally a byelection could have been called to replace him.
I just also worry that if that procedure is initiated by the government rather than a third party it could also be abused by a sitting government to force by-elections in favorable ridings to potentially boost seats.
I just struggle with all the criticism because no one is suggesting Elections Canada be beefed up to better handle this, they are instead suggesting that the Liberal government should be doing something. while it could be indirectly assumed that people are asking the Liberal government to pass legislation to reform elections Canada, this is a minority government, any party can table legislation that would aim at doing just that. As far as I know no party has suggested doing that.
Alternatively it could be assumed that the ask is for a minority government have the ability to expell elected MPs, which of course is not something that should be possible. What if a majority vote could expell elected MPs? What would prevent a majority government from expelling the entire opposition party?
None of this feels great 😞
PP needs to see who is compromised.
When it comes to national security there’s no excuse for our second major party and likely next PM to not have clearance.
At least Trudeau can hide behind national security on this, and I would like to see more. But PP isn’t behaving responsibly or in good faith.
Certainly not doing the job of the opposition leader. He should be all up in that business, but he’s playing coy.
Why though. They made a new security clearance for stuff like this. He gets it and can’t all about it. Now he can. I’m not sure which is worse.
He can talk about it as long as he doesn’t reveal specifics.
What’s he going to do as PM, continue to not look?
I must have missed the part where there was definitive evidence that anyone was compromised. I thought this was still an investigation.
If this has progressed to the stage that the evidence is strong enough than sure the names should be released, but I didn’t think the investigation was at that point.
The alternative is the list of names is released and then it later comes out that a few names were actually innocent but it’s too late to take it back because that incorrect news being public will have ruined their chances or reelection.
I’m not suggesting a witch-hunt without evidence; just accountability from the government that is supposed to serve us. In power or otherwise.
That’s what the investigation is. And that’s happening. All parties with the correct access can access that information. What accountability isn’t happening?
Is an investigation happening?
Out of curiosity, and if you don’t mind sharing, do you think the Liberals have done a good job of dealing with election interference issues?
I haven’t seen anything that suggests that the Liberal party is mishandling election interference matters that fall under their control.
But election interference related things are not something that the acting government should have influence over. Elections Canada is independent and should be handling anything creditable, and the legal system should be capable of handling any prosecuting.
I strongly stongly stongly believe that the government should not be able to directly influence anything that can change election results.
I would agree, except that it may be legally prohibited. At present, I believe JT would be violating national security laws by revealing the names.
Meanwhile, PP would much rather falsely scream “LIAR!” than admit that BS like that is exactly why he refuses to get a security clearance.
He refuses to get that security clearance. He still has the usual security clearance.