Why the fuck are these two the choices?!
Because the system is set up to prevent any real change for the benefit of the common people. So your choice is between the friendly, somewhat reasonable oligarchy stooge and the utterly deranged oligarchy stooge.
A somewhat less pessimistic take: the system is set up to be self-stable.
And it was also designed so that States would have most of the power, not the Federal government.
At various points in history the common people did get benefits. New Deal. Universal suffrage. Civil rights. Abolition.
But it always requires a critical mass of the population to support change.
Like in the 2016 election? Or in 2000? The system is set up to prevent the will of the people from being enacted and it takes a massive crisis for everyone to be pissed off enough to do something. Add to that the control of nearly all media by the oligarchy and you get to where we are today.
The US government system was set up to be better than the monarchies its designers had grown up under. In this sense it has been wildly successful. But… it wasn’t really designed to scale to the size it has, nor to account for the massive changes in technology that have occurred since it was written.
The leaders of the time decided to replace the first attempt only 6 years after it was ratified, and I believe they fully expected any future government to do the same if they found the current system wasn’t working. They did try to make the new system more adaptable by adding the Amendment process, which was frankly genius and unprecedented in government systems prior to that.
I think it’s very important to remember where and when the system we have came from, and to try to think like the people who wrote it, and to remember that at the time they had no other models for successful government beyond the writings of Enlightenment-period historians. It’s very easy to criticize the current system. It’s far more difficult (and substantially more important) to draft a better system.
I’ve often thought that America suffers from being the first successful iteration of our style of government. It was great and a huge improvement over all the other examples at the time. So much so that much of the world eventually followed in its footsteps.
But where other countries looked at our first successful attempt and further improved and refined the idea, we’re still stuck on that very first version. What was once a radically new idea that worked so much better than everyone else, is now an old, outdated and barely functional relic. We’re the early prototype iPhone 3g, while several other countries have iPhone 6/10/etc
Can you give any specific examples
I’m not sure if anyone could conclusively declare a certain country’s democracy is totally better than ours, but several more recently created democracies have avoided many of the pitfalls that have been discovered with American implementation. Things like mandatory voting, ranked choice voting, better and stronger rules around money and political campaigns, more comprehensive list of citizen rights, etc. Most of those countries have their own missteps as well, but a lot of our issues have been solved, we just haven’t adopted the methods and improvements already shown to work. Typically because they’d require pretty extensive reform, which is incredibly hard to achieve with our government especially in the current political climate.
Everything you said is true, fair and I do agree. But I feel compelled to add that many of the issues built into the current structure of governance are a direct result of racism, white supremacy and slavery.
The reason the system is so incredibly resistant to change is that the anti-democratic parts of the Constitution are there because of slavery. Giving disproportionate power to the slave holding class then leads directly to a Senate that is almost always going to be 50%+ Republican today despite that party not winning a national majority in 30+ years.
I understand and appreciate that the system has safeguards against rapid and radical changes where 50%+1 can otherwise dominate the other half of the country. But we must acknowledge that the current framework is a poor facsimile of that and the reason is the original sin of this country.
Lastly, this is a bit of an aside, but this clip of Reggie Jackson (Hall of Fame baseball player) is really worth watching and remembering that what he experienced happened not that long ago and is indictive of the type of America that so many people on the right want to return to. https://youtu.be/R4mWOVy_02s?si=9irk_TD_JKWInMkt
Both elections exactly prove my point.
The federal system is set up to favor State power, which is why the US presidential election isn’t decided by popular vote. By design, Wyoming and California are considered equals in many respects.
It’s a bad system, but it’s very much entrenched in the constitution.
And it also requires critical mass. It’s basically impossible to enact meaningful change with a 50-55% majority. You need 60% or more to get big changes. And a majority of states.
There’s the NPVIC which would cut the electoral college out of the process entirely.
Indeed - and I really hope it passes.
I thought about mentioning it in my previous comment. But basically, it’s another example that States hold most of the power. The States actually have the power to effectively replace the current system with a national popular vote if they choose.
Other examples are the IRV in Alaska and the district system in Maine and Nebraska.
And it was also designed so that States would have most of the power, not the Federal government.
Yeah, but then we changed it because of the civil war…
The system was designed for the president to be a mostly performative figurehead. Then we gave the president real power, but left determination like the president didn’t matter.
Same reason every independent store and restaurant gets replaced by a chain.
People want what’s familiar. Both these men won their primaries and have the most support out of anyone in their parties.
Your example works but it’s more like because capitalism concentrates wealth and power and little guys have no chance
Look at the last handful of democratic presidential losses to see this in action:
Gore gets nominated due to familiarity. He has the charisma of a warm sponge. He loses (barely, and not the popular vote; by the way, FUCK the electoral college) to George W. “I’d have a beer with him and hey wasn’t his dad president?” Bush.
Kerry somehow rises to the top of the next democratic primary, a fact that I will never understand, because he also has the charisma of a warm sponge. Bush is familiar and a wartime president. He is re-elected in defiance of God and nature.
Obama comes along and is a once in a generation political talent. Things are pretty good for a while.
Hillary enters the primary and wins mainly based on name recognition. She presents herself as having the charisma of a warm sponge, when we all know full well that she has the charisma of a wood chipper, and since we’re pretty good at detecting artifice she loses.
In 2019 we’ve got a pretty good set of primary choices, but Biden gets into the ring and that’s pretty much fucking it, because, again, he has name recognition, so he blows past some better, younger choices and manages to leverage his name and Trump’s fuck-ups enough to win.
The pattern is that name recognition will get you a real long way, especially with low information voters, and that is a real goddamn problem when there are objectively better options who aren’t as famous.
So anyway, I think we need a constitutional amendment forbidding members of one’s immediate family from running for president after one has been president. No sons, daughters, husbands, wives, etc. Fuck dynasties. Fucking fundamentally un-American.
Because we’re ruled by the billionaire class, and they like giving us two useful idiots to choose from.
Enshittification is not only in corporations
Because that’s all our owners will let us have. Thanks citizen United for hammering in that final nail in our collective coffin
Do you think it’s just that, or that maybe the fact that too many people don’t give a shit in-between election years might play a role as well? Because from what I’ve seen over the decades- is that a lot of SJWs enjoy rising up every four years to complain about shit- then disappear until the next election.
Without fail.
NO. The question is, if we had a viable (sane and cognizant) third choice fit for the job, why would it STILL be one of these two BOZOS getting elected in November?
What a tragedy.
Because not enough people give a shit in-between election years.
Why does the Superbowl only have two teams? It seems unfair since I don’t know how the two teams were selected and I don’t really care enough to pay attention / find out.
It worries me that people can listen to trump say “we have the most unsafe border in history when I was president we had the most safe border in history” and not question that statement in the slightest.
It’s like when Trump ran campaign ads about police brutality and crimes going up in inner cities…that all happened under Trump with the tag, “This is Biden’s America”.
It is true what they say: truth has a liberal bias.
I dunno, man.
I’d say stop watching corporate media, because CNN is making a shit-ton of advertiser money off these charades, but people won’t.
I turned on the radio in my car to tune into the debate. The first thing I heard was Trump saying “we had the most immaculate air, we had the most immaculate water”.
I just shut the damn thing off.
“It votes for the geezer or it gets the fascist again.”
Edit: Iam eh gud spellor
*or it gets the geezer fascist again
But unironically yes.
I had to do this … it was just too good. My wife chuckled.
I think it’s important to note that the fascist is also a geezer.
True dat.
Feeling free yet?
John Stewart always finds the best way to express what I’m feeling.
Regardless of the outcome, this election will go down as a shit stain on history.
I just hope the outcome doesn’t turn it into explosive diarrhea.
Damn, I guess I’m going to ignore years of evidence that Biden’s admin can function just fine and go with my feelings on this one. I mean would you vote constructively if it meant getting over yourself? Of course not. We’re Americans. We want a leader with a good jaw, not with good character or good ideas.
Nah but seriously though. Biden and Trump make me feel bad so I’m going to vote in a way that harms the country. That’ll show us.
Yeah, I mean, nevermind all the pending criminal charges and evidence of incompetence from Trump’s 4 years in office where we had weekly “infrastructure week” failures, a constant stream of garbage tweets parading as “official Presidential communications”, and egregious power grabs by the Executive branch. Trump said all his same BS in a more convincing-sounding voice during last night’s debate and the guy with a known stuttering issue just didn’t have a strong-sounding voice, that’s all the convincing I needed. Biden is just so old, I literally can’t tell them apart <teeheehee>!
Don’t forget how:
"I’m NOT voting for an entire apparatus of executive government with thousands of employees, I’m ONLY voting for a charismatic messiah godking, because I’m still little more than a medieval peasant looking to be mesmerized.
Then if fascists take over the nation (again) and the most vulnerable among me suffer from it (again and again and again), that’s not MY problem. While (somehow) fancying myself as enlightened and special and pure. I’m at the center of my goddamned Universe!"
The Supreme Court, and how republicans effectively staged a coup of it in 2016 by turning their back on Merrick Garland, then packed it with corrupt right-wing zealots? “Not MY problem!”… until it is, but by then it’s way too late.
I mean, you’d think the total inability to hide Biden and Trumps’ cognitive dysfunction, caught on camera many, many times over the last few years, and now live and in color, would be enough to get people to stop pretending that there’s a good option here. Hell, Biden’s handlers have been caught on camera making sure he doesn’t wander off, like they had for Feinstein before she died.
But then again, Americans have watched the gradual, but now inevitable, slide into fascism over the last 40 years and managed to convince themselves that all is well, provided the guy enabling it is wearing their preferred jersey, so I guess we’ll just chill and let Biden and Trumps’ unelected handlers rule the country.
It’s too bad you all didn’t vote for Williamson in the primary. It’s been clear neither of these two assholes are fit for a long time, just like it was clear Feinstein wasn’t fit when she was falling asleep in hearings.
The people guiding Biden at least have an interest in keeping the united states functional. The people guiding Trump want to watch it burn.
No they don’t.
They have an interest in keeping themselves rich, consequences be damned.
They’re the same picture
No, no they don’t. Those people jumped ship after Jan 6. The only people left backing Trump are the insane religious cultists and racists that want to turn the country into a theocracy and purge anyone not white, straight and Christian.
Biden’s people have an interest in keeping their jobs for the next 4 years, let’s be real here.
And this is the best point to make right here. Well said.
The people guiding Biden at least have an interest in keeping the united states functional
… for their corporate sponsors, who’s interests slightly align with yours.
What I don’t understand about the handlers thing is that when I watch other famous people walking and talking: I see their handlers steer them, give them signals, whisper names in their ear. And you know what? Celebrities in their prime look awkward all the time. People who have nothing to worry about but their craft and being famous screw up all the time.
Yeah, but those people don’t have the power to destroy the entire world when their brain short-circuits.
ignore years of evidence that Biden’s admin can function
They’re doing a real bang-up job, both at home and abroad.
I wish we went further left, but the reality is that Biden has been a steady hand at the wheel where we’ve come out of economic unknown of the covid shut downs pretty well. We still have a ways to go, but we’re heading in the right direction, and the most glaring problem (namely inflation) was something baked in before he even came into office.
Abroad we actually have the respect of much of the world, and it feels like to our allies that we are actually a partner that can be trusted on. Keep in mind that if you told a republican of the 80s that a US president rally the west against an imperialistic russia invading Europe, without committing a single US or NATO troop, and exposed them for how weak they are, then they would have said he was the second coming of Reagan.
Do I disagree with a lot of what he has done? Yes. But it’s been a steady ride. Compared to Trump’s presidency, which was a bumpy ride throughout, handing off an economy that looked like it could just go completely into the shitter, and threatening our alliances across the world, he looks like straight up looks like one of the best.
John nailed it at the end. Fuck, this can’t be real life.
First of all- I agree concerns about both their ages are very much valid here but hasn’t Biden had a stutter from a very young age and struggled with it most of his life? Surely we should cut the guy some slack here?
That said, of course there won’t be slack. Political debates (especially one of high stakes as this one) are cut throat and no one has room for error.
Brother don’t lie to yourself, that was way more than a just a stutter. Nobody who watched that debate is under the impression that the problem was Joe Biden stuttered sometimes. I understand you’re disappointed and trying to cope somehow but it’s not healthy to just create a fantasy. It was a train wreck. It was real real bad. Just accept it and move on.
It was a disaster. Trump lied for 90 minutes straight, but he did it confidently, with a straight face, and without rambling. It was a vast improvement over his stump speeches. Biden mostly told the truth, but he meandered, stammered, got mixed up, and was obviously ill. That’s just what happened.
I’m going to vote for Biden anyway, because the old man stands for policies that actually benefit me personally (and a second Trump term is a threat to the existence of the Republic). But the debate was bad for him, possibly catastrophic. His campaign desperately needs an October surprise, and at this point it’s hard to guess what it might be.
I think “without rambling” is more than just a stretch. Dude was all over place, but he was able to ramble clearly.
@[email protected] My dude, go easy. I’m from the UK, I have no reason to create a fantasy, just making an observation. Please don’t make these kinda discussions a “shut up and listen here” kind of thing.
Edit: tagged user
I honestly didn’t think he went that hard on you… It definitely didn’t come across as a “shut up and listen here” comment.
That said, if you saw any of the clips, I think it was clear and obvious that his stutter was not the issue.
In 2020, there was a lot of talk about his stutter, and that made seemed right. Here lately Biden is giving me “Weekend at Bernie” vibes.
One thing to remember is they didn’t have notes, earpieces or teleprompters.
Trump just straight up rambled out a stream of bullshit, lies, and projection every time he had the mic. Biden was not only answering factually, but also had to counter bullshit. They were on the same stage but playing two completely different games.
And when the debate is analyzed down to “who was more truthful?”, Biden slightly flubbing a fact/figure will be treated near equally to Trump straight up spewing out bullshit.
The problem is that most Americans don’t care about the truth
Well, this American sure does and will be voting in November. Suggest everyone does the same.
I hope there’s more of you than there are of them.
There are. The problem is getting them off their asses and out to vote.
Go back and watch his 2020 debate footage or his VP debates. This was not his stutter.
Shit just go back and watch the fuckin STATE OF THE UNION. Where was THAT Biden???
That was a teleprompter.
He just did a speech today on a teleprompter and was supposedly fine as well.
hasn’t Biden had a stutter from a very young age and struggled with it most of his life?
It hasn’t apparently impacted his public speaking for most of his political career up until recently:
https://youtu.be/86Nrv5izaTs?si=bZ9WNXIEZNOaBV3T
And even when not speaking during tonight’s debate, he often looked totally bewildered.
People have been saying this for quite a while now despite the excuses from the Democrat establishment, but tonight there was no hiding the fact that the dude just looks unable to last another four years as president.
And even when not speaking during tonight’s debate, he often looked totally bewildered.
To be fair, my partner and I also looked totally bewildered by the things falling out of Trump’s face. I don’t know that he actually answered a single question, but rather spouted the same racist nonsense over and over.
Being a narcissistic, bloviating despot is exactly what everyone expected of Trump. In fact, he came off rather well from the time constraints, muted mics, and the total lack of fact-checking because the format of the debate didn’t expose his weaknesses like it did for Biden.
I am absolutely grieving right now because of how much of the discourse following the debate is “BIDEN OLD”. Both of them are old. I wish I had another option other than Biden, but at this point it’s between him and a 34-time convicted felon that tried to throw a coup as soon as he was going to lose power and STILL will not admit he is wrong about the election results. Nor will he promise to honor the results of this upcoming election. There really isn’t a choice here.
What a fucking failure our political system is.
It’s freaky how much this is mirroring the lead up to Nazi Germany. Right down to a convicted criminal spewing nonsense yet looking poised to take over
I am legitimately scared
Me too.
I couldn’t believe that people were convinced to vote for him the first time. I couldn’t believe that after a term people were even considering voting for him the second time. Now, I’m struggling with how the man is allowed to SPEAK IN PUBLIC.
Any other felon would have been shunned to obscurity.
Felons struggle to find work and housing, yet this man gets another crack at leading a nation.
The man who complimented AMERICAN TERRORISTS after they successfully murdered his constituents gets to try to LEAD A NATION.
Republicans like to scream about CaNCel CuLTure, but fucking where is it now? This man shouldn’t be allowed to own his own clothes just for his financial crimes, and yet he is treated as a viable option for the presidency.
Edit: oh yeah, I forgot that he was impeached twice, refused to leave office, THEN lost the vote and tried to stay in office via violence.
That’s a silver lining.
Biden looks like he’s on the verge of croaking, so maybe, just maybe, we’ll get a black, female fascist enabler instead of an old white male fascist enabler for once.
And so the cycle will continue until rank choice voting gets through. 🫠
It’s unavoidable.
Remember in 2016 when we learned 40,000,000 Americans couldn’t absorb an unexpected $400 expense without going further into debt? That number has almost certainly exploded since then, with the housing crises and massive inflation that America has been forced to endure. I doubt those people are going to forego a badly needed day’s pay to vote for one of these two assholes when the last eight years has reinforced emphatically how little they care about the poor and working class.
In his first presidential primary in 1988, Biden was the front runner despite his youth because he was wildly regarded as one of the best public speakers in the country and he was (at the time) charismatic.
Then he started yelling at reporters about how high his IQ was after they found out he plagiarized speeches plagiarized work in law school, and lied about his grades and class standing.
Because he got over his childhood stutter. In childhood.
What’s happening now isn’t a stutter. It’s 100% normal for an 82 year old.
That doesn’t mean an 82 year old is fit to be president, just that Biden acts how an 82 year old is expected to act. Because he’s 82 years old.
I’m surprised they didn’t leash John Stewart. He must have a bad ass contract that let’s him say what he wants.
That show has a proud tradition of talking shit about politicians. Been this way for 20 years.
Have you ever watched the Daily Show? What you describe has never been the practice there, they shit on everyone, it’s great.
He’s been down on Joe being ready for retirement for a while. I think everyone else is just tuning in to how bad it is.
Shit Show 2024 begins.
deleted by creator
This whole night was so many layers of exhausting, but probably not for the reasons you think… No rational, serious person was expecting Biden to Willy Wonka front somersault into this debate? it was going to be what this was, the only true surprise was probably the volume of his voice (which they chalk up to a cold, okay fine, I guess) and actually how well he did quickly processing and responding to trump’s gish gallop and unchecked stream of consciousness mistruth firehose with little help from the impotent moderators for the majority of the night.
The people in this country, in their immediate reaction to this debate, demonstrate that they just fundamentally lack the focus, empathv and frankly basic intelligence to process the substance of this or any debate. On average, we respond solely to voice pitch, tonality, body language and facial expressions, like a still developing toddler… Or a dog.
I mean, this same topic is in like 10 different threads right now.
Other poster said it basically, but If Lemmy as a platform isn’t disciplined enough to have a Megathead where a given major topic like this is discussed, then I’ll form my original thought, and copy and paste it across the wallet disjointed conversations to get my point across to the relevant audience.
Uh huh, “receipts” man, you liked the pirates… You TOTALLY got me… truth to power, bud. Maybe just move on with your life next time?
Anything substantive to say about the actual point of the post or did you just need to be heard today?
