We don’t know what Biden is saying behind closed doors, but I’d be willing to bet my left nut that he’s really angry at Netanyahu.
Bibi knows he would get full support to wipe out Gaza from Trump.
Biden is still trying to help within a certain frame by sending aid and asking Netanyahu to stop killing civilians. But that’s only as much as he can do without completely pulling all funding, weapons and ammo. But there’s risks associated to that. Especially with the threat of Iran in the middle East. He doesn’t want to lose the support of one of the only allies, if not the only one, in the region.
The whole thing is very complex. There’s lots of things at play here and it’s all a bunch of shades of gray. Nothing is black and white.
However, there’s only one thing that’s really important here. Trump must lose. A Trump win would be devastating for world peace. I don’t think Americans understand enough how much their country is a central pillar for world peace. The Gaza genocide could be nothing compared to the world wide cluster fuck we could be in if Trump wins.
So get your heads out of your asses, swallow your fucking pride and do the world a fucking favor by voting for the only candidate who still has a chance at not bringing a third, and possibly ultimate, world war.
For real - Trump would have sent whole squadrons of B-52s to carpet bomb Gaza without warning or allowance for any civilian evacuation.
I voted uncommitted in my primary on Tuesday. But I am sure as shit voting for the Democratic nominee, whoever it turns out to be, but realistically, it’s going to be Biden.
I understand precisely how central the US is to world stability at large. I’m not trying to claim the US is perfect, or unambiguously good - we have absolutely done a lot of shitty things over the years. I will assert that the world would likely be a lot more dangerous in a holistic sense if it weren’t for the US’s post-WW2 leadership in the western hemisphere.
The US has deliberately destabilized the Middle East, South and Central America and Southern Asia. What you describe as holistic sense, is in fact the opposite. It is limited to a western perspective, that was culturally formed by almost a century of American supremacism, denial of non western perspectives in media and manufacturing consent propaganda in all levels of society…
The Vietnam war was largely an effort to destabilize the region and prevent economic development by defending a brutal post colonial regime against its own people. It wasn even about communism, as the US was happy to help the genocidal Red Khmer in Cambodia.
The US has toppled something like a dozen democratically elected governments in South and Central America and installed brutal, often fascist regimes, to maximise US company profits.
The US destroyed Iraq, leading to the Insurgency and subsequently ISIS, to keep the Middle East at perpetual destablization after it started to become more stable in the early 2000s. The momentum was then used to destabilize Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. While claiming it was about “democracy” the US was happy to support the coup in Egypt after they kicked out Mubarak and held elections. The now installed Sisi is even worse than Mubarak.
The final example should be Afghanistan, where 20 years of US occupation created nothing tangible and had the country fall back under Taliban control before the last US troops were out.
Yes all of this. And also, even if Palestine was in no way on the ballot in November, that doesn’t mean it’s not worth it to vote for the guy who is much better in all the ways that are on the ballot
I wish more people understood you some deescalate by screaming we’re going to kick your ass and force you to stop. That is unless you all want the US fighting on a third front and are willing to eat that cost.
I think a Trump win could mean at least soldiers being sent to Gaza and Ukraine being handed over to Putin in the name of “peace”, which would fuel the territorial ambitions of other dictators. A lot of Hungarians are still mad about Treaty of Trianon, see Slovaks as a “fake nation created by the Habsburgs/Jews/communists”, and this is only my country. China has it’s own territorial ambitions, so are most other regimes.
Oh I’m not trying to convince Trump supporters. I’m trying to convince liberals who won’t vote for Biden over one issue: the Israel-Gaza conflict. Effectively handing over the presidential election to Trump.
for the only candidate who still has a chance at not bringing a third, and possibly ultimate, world war.
Trump hast pulled out US troops from the Middle East. The US strategy for the Middle East and in particular the strategy of supporting Israel no matter what, revolves around perpetual destabilization of the Middle East to prevent the formation of a unified Arab bloc, that would become another global power.
I believe this to be highly implausible. The current US strategy is a danger to peace. Also both Saudi Arabia and Iran are now in the BRICS, so without US divisive interference diplomacy is actually possible in the region.
The whole “Trump will cause WW3” seems to me like a great consipiracy theory peddled to get some of the anti war vote, when the Democrats have been War Hawks since decades. Hillary Clinton campaigned in 2016 on the idea of going to war with Iran. There is many problems with Trump, but on the issue of global war i do not see, why he would be a bigger danger than the Democrats or other Republicans.
Like someone else said, Trump would likely carpet bomb Gaza indiscriminately. This world increase hate against the US from the Middle East. And would probably encourage certain nations to act against the US.
Trump is also pro Putin. He would let Putin run rampant and he would invade and take over all the old Soviet bloc nations and rule with an iron fist over them. This would put Europe at risk of war. And could potentially drag in NATO members. And have you forgotten that Putin is staunchly against LGBTQ and trans people? This would cause complete chaos.
Why would Trump have to carpet bomb Gaza? Israel is literally already doing that with American bombs. What benefit would it be to Trump to spend billions of dollars deploying US military forces to take military action Israel is already taking? Trump would just continue letting Israel do whatever they want with no international repercussions. The genocide of Palestine is not popular with the extreme right, which is virulently anti-Semitic and has seized on the genocide as an excuse to promote anti semitism. Not to mention, Trump has territorial goals in mind. He wouldn’t commit military forces to a place far from the Americas (and away from his territorial ambitions) to ethically cleanse a group of people who mean nothing to him.
Where did Trump expand US military presence during his presidency? I only have the examples in mind where he pulled troops out. Also the brief escalation with Iran was, well brief. Torpedising the JCPOA was a destabilizing act, but the war hawks amongs Dems are also fiercly opposing any diplomatic efforts with Iran.
Meanwhile while Biden is talking about “please Israel don’t kill so many Palestinians, what are you doing this is bad press for me” he also keeps sending arms to Israel and backing them against every UN measure to demand a ceasefire and humanitarian access to Gaza.
Judging by actions instead of words, i don’t see why Trump would be more of a danger to the Middle East than the Democrats are.
I share the criticism of lacking Ukraine support and Putin apologism by the republicans. I am skeptical that this would lead to WW3 in Europe though. Russia did not escalate to nuclear war, like they threatened, for European countries and the US to send more and more and better equipment to Ukraine. Russia having switched to war economy is dangerous as it might necesitate an even stronger focus on war efforts, but i remain sceptical that they would push into an all out war with European NATO countries. Putin is struggling internally to keep power, as we see by both Putin allies and enemys to keep “falling” out of windows. And the russian elites like money, but they don’t like getting nuked. Also Russia is more and more dependant on countries like China and India to cover the sanctioned parts and products. Neither country is excited about the economic fallout of a full blown war in Europe.
Finally Putin being staunchly against LGBT people is unfortunate, but i don’t see how this would make the prospect of WW3 more likely. We see a recession of pro LGBT stances in the growing fascism and right wing populism in Europe too. These countries will not go to war over LGBT rights. And the growth of these political leanings is aided by Russia, no doubt about it. But the land for these “plants” to grow is kept fertile by neoliberal politics, that are in line with the US Dems economic positions.
This is where the circle closes. We cannot solve Trump, growing fascism in Europe, Putins expansionism and create peace in the Middle East without changing the political direction of US Democrats and similiar political groups in Europe. By saying “ohh this election again we must get the Democrats to win as they are the lesser of two evil” all we do is grow both evils stronger.
Trump didn’t have the conflicts we have now during his presidency. Actions instead of words??? You’re kidding? You can’t compare him to Biden in that regard.
Trump pulling troops out of the Middle-East was him pulling troops out of Afghanistan. And look what happened. The Taliban just walked back in with practically zero resistance and now every woman in the country lost their rights. The decades long work of trying to stabilize that country, dead soldiers from so many countries who tried to bring stability and peace in the region. All lost in a few weeks because of his stupidity.
Trump also pulled US soldiers out of Syria, Iraq and Somalia.
Also as much as i love to blame stuff on Trump, Afghanistan failing was not his work alone, or even mainly his work. And Biden was happy to fully pull out of Afghanistan, instead of reversing Trump decision. But the USs proclaimed goal of stabilising and democratising Afghanistan was a sham from the very beginning under Bush. Heck even the “war on terror” angle was a lie, as all the US did was make insurgent groups stronger wherever they went.
Alright then. Go vote for Trump if you hate Biden so much. Let’s see where a second Trump presidency leads world peace and social progress. Because according to you, he’s so much better at doing this job than Biden who, outside of the whole Gaza conflict, has been praised for his work on so many levels.
And here you fall victim to the problem i was talking about in the first place. The US politics are so entrenched, that each election you rather want to chose the party that will fuck you over less badly this time, but by this enable both parties to fuck you over every time.
I’m not an US citizen so my perspective of course is different, but how the fuck can the majority of the voters in the US be fine with the choice being between two geriatrics with visible mental decline and think “yep this is as good as it gets”? How can the voters of the democrats let the party elites get away with another Biden candidacy?
But like a badly managed company only thinks about the next quarter, the US seems to only think about just the next term and never further.
I understand your point. But that’s absolutely not what we were talking about.
The arguments you made were basically in favor of Trump and voting for Trump over Biden because he wasn’t involved in any conflicts and reduced American military presence in the Middle East. You even hinted at saying he wasn’t a war monger and painted him like he’s working towards world peace when his actions are actually going to create more problems for world peace and more suffering worldwide instead of actively trying to prevent them.
We don’t know what Biden is saying behind closed doors, but I’d be willing to bet my left nut that he’s really angry at Netanyahu.
Bibi knows he would get full support to wipe out Gaza from Trump.
Biden is still trying to help within a certain frame by sending aid and asking Netanyahu to stop killing civilians. But that’s only as much as he can do without completely pulling all funding, weapons and ammo. But there’s risks associated to that. Especially with the threat of Iran in the middle East. He doesn’t want to lose the support of one of the only allies, if not the only one, in the region.
The whole thing is very complex. There’s lots of things at play here and it’s all a bunch of shades of gray. Nothing is black and white.
However, there’s only one thing that’s really important here. Trump must lose. A Trump win would be devastating for world peace. I don’t think Americans understand enough how much their country is a central pillar for world peace. The Gaza genocide could be nothing compared to the world wide cluster fuck we could be in if Trump wins.
So get your heads out of your asses, swallow your fucking pride and do the world a fucking favor by voting for the only candidate who still has a chance at not bringing a third, and possibly ultimate, world war.
For real - Trump would have sent whole squadrons of B-52s to carpet bomb Gaza without warning or allowance for any civilian evacuation.
I voted uncommitted in my primary on Tuesday. But I am sure as shit voting for the Democratic nominee, whoever it turns out to be, but realistically, it’s going to be Biden.
I understand precisely how central the US is to world stability at large. I’m not trying to claim the US is perfect, or unambiguously good - we have absolutely done a lot of shitty things over the years. I will assert that the world would likely be a lot more dangerous in a holistic sense if it weren’t for the US’s post-WW2 leadership in the western hemisphere.
The US has deliberately destabilized the Middle East, South and Central America and Southern Asia. What you describe as holistic sense, is in fact the opposite. It is limited to a western perspective, that was culturally formed by almost a century of American supremacism, denial of non western perspectives in media and manufacturing consent propaganda in all levels of society…
The Vietnam war was largely an effort to destabilize the region and prevent economic development by defending a brutal post colonial regime against its own people. It wasn even about communism, as the US was happy to help the genocidal Red Khmer in Cambodia.
The US has toppled something like a dozen democratically elected governments in South and Central America and installed brutal, often fascist regimes, to maximise US company profits.
The US destroyed Iraq, leading to the Insurgency and subsequently ISIS, to keep the Middle East at perpetual destablization after it started to become more stable in the early 2000s. The momentum was then used to destabilize Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. While claiming it was about “democracy” the US was happy to support the coup in Egypt after they kicked out Mubarak and held elections. The now installed Sisi is even worse than Mubarak.
The final example should be Afghanistan, where 20 years of US occupation created nothing tangible and had the country fall back under Taliban control before the last US troops were out.
First thing trump would do is stop all Ukraine aid and give Putin the green light, second thing he’d do is withdraw from NATO.
Exactly.
Yes all of this. And also, even if Palestine was in no way on the ballot in November, that doesn’t mean it’s not worth it to vote for the guy who is much better in all the ways that are on the ballot
Why are you labeled as a bot?
I have no idea, Is there anything I can do about that? I thought it just assigned me a cheeky avatar
He literally said today that he will never stop supporting and arming Israel.
I wish more people understood you some deescalate by screaming we’re going to kick your ass and force you to stop. That is unless you all want the US fighting on a third front and are willing to eat that cost.
I think a Trump win could mean at least soldiers being sent to Gaza and Ukraine being handed over to Putin in the name of “peace”, which would fuel the territorial ambitions of other dictators. A lot of Hungarians are still mad about Treaty of Trianon, see Slovaks as a “fake nation created by the Habsburgs/Jews/communists”, and this is only my country. China has it’s own territorial ambitions, so are most other regimes.
Removed by mod
Oh I’m not trying to convince Trump supporters. I’m trying to convince liberals who won’t vote for Biden over one issue: the Israel-Gaza conflict. Effectively handing over the presidential election to Trump.
Trump hast pulled out US troops from the Middle East. The US strategy for the Middle East and in particular the strategy of supporting Israel no matter what, revolves around perpetual destabilization of the Middle East to prevent the formation of a unified Arab bloc, that would become another global power.
I believe this to be highly implausible. The current US strategy is a danger to peace. Also both Saudi Arabia and Iran are now in the BRICS, so without US divisive interference diplomacy is actually possible in the region.
The whole “Trump will cause WW3” seems to me like a great consipiracy theory peddled to get some of the anti war vote, when the Democrats have been War Hawks since decades. Hillary Clinton campaigned in 2016 on the idea of going to war with Iran. There is many problems with Trump, but on the issue of global war i do not see, why he would be a bigger danger than the Democrats or other Republicans.
Are you serious?
Like someone else said, Trump would likely carpet bomb Gaza indiscriminately. This world increase hate against the US from the Middle East. And would probably encourage certain nations to act against the US.
Trump is also pro Putin. He would let Putin run rampant and he would invade and take over all the old Soviet bloc nations and rule with an iron fist over them. This would put Europe at risk of war. And could potentially drag in NATO members. And have you forgotten that Putin is staunchly against LGBTQ and trans people? This would cause complete chaos.
Why would Trump have to carpet bomb Gaza? Israel is literally already doing that with American bombs. What benefit would it be to Trump to spend billions of dollars deploying US military forces to take military action Israel is already taking? Trump would just continue letting Israel do whatever they want with no international repercussions. The genocide of Palestine is not popular with the extreme right, which is virulently anti-Semitic and has seized on the genocide as an excuse to promote anti semitism. Not to mention, Trump has territorial goals in mind. He wouldn’t commit military forces to a place far from the Americas (and away from his territorial ambitions) to ethically cleanse a group of people who mean nothing to him.
Where did Trump expand US military presence during his presidency? I only have the examples in mind where he pulled troops out. Also the brief escalation with Iran was, well brief. Torpedising the JCPOA was a destabilizing act, but the war hawks amongs Dems are also fiercly opposing any diplomatic efforts with Iran.
Meanwhile while Biden is talking about “please Israel don’t kill so many Palestinians, what are you doing this is bad press for me” he also keeps sending arms to Israel and backing them against every UN measure to demand a ceasefire and humanitarian access to Gaza.
Judging by actions instead of words, i don’t see why Trump would be more of a danger to the Middle East than the Democrats are.
I share the criticism of lacking Ukraine support and Putin apologism by the republicans. I am skeptical that this would lead to WW3 in Europe though. Russia did not escalate to nuclear war, like they threatened, for European countries and the US to send more and more and better equipment to Ukraine. Russia having switched to war economy is dangerous as it might necesitate an even stronger focus on war efforts, but i remain sceptical that they would push into an all out war with European NATO countries. Putin is struggling internally to keep power, as we see by both Putin allies and enemys to keep “falling” out of windows. And the russian elites like money, but they don’t like getting nuked. Also Russia is more and more dependant on countries like China and India to cover the sanctioned parts and products. Neither country is excited about the economic fallout of a full blown war in Europe.
Finally Putin being staunchly against LGBT people is unfortunate, but i don’t see how this would make the prospect of WW3 more likely. We see a recession of pro LGBT stances in the growing fascism and right wing populism in Europe too. These countries will not go to war over LGBT rights. And the growth of these political leanings is aided by Russia, no doubt about it. But the land for these “plants” to grow is kept fertile by neoliberal politics, that are in line with the US Dems economic positions.
This is where the circle closes. We cannot solve Trump, growing fascism in Europe, Putins expansionism and create peace in the Middle East without changing the political direction of US Democrats and similiar political groups in Europe. By saying “ohh this election again we must get the Democrats to win as they are the lesser of two evil” all we do is grow both evils stronger.
Trump didn’t have the conflicts we have now during his presidency. Actions instead of words??? You’re kidding? You can’t compare him to Biden in that regard.
Trump pulling troops out of the Middle-East was him pulling troops out of Afghanistan. And look what happened. The Taliban just walked back in with practically zero resistance and now every woman in the country lost their rights. The decades long work of trying to stabilize that country, dead soldiers from so many countries who tried to bring stability and peace in the region. All lost in a few weeks because of his stupidity.
Trump also pulled US soldiers out of Syria, Iraq and Somalia.
Also as much as i love to blame stuff on Trump, Afghanistan failing was not his work alone, or even mainly his work. And Biden was happy to fully pull out of Afghanistan, instead of reversing Trump decision. But the USs proclaimed goal of stabilising and democratising Afghanistan was a sham from the very beginning under Bush. Heck even the “war on terror” angle was a lie, as all the US did was make insurgent groups stronger wherever they went.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/23/politics/how-four-presidents-created-afghanistan-mess/index.html
Alright then. Go vote for Trump if you hate Biden so much. Let’s see where a second Trump presidency leads world peace and social progress. Because according to you, he’s so much better at doing this job than Biden who, outside of the whole Gaza conflict, has been praised for his work on so many levels.
And here you fall victim to the problem i was talking about in the first place. The US politics are so entrenched, that each election you rather want to chose the party that will fuck you over less badly this time, but by this enable both parties to fuck you over every time.
I’m not an US citizen so my perspective of course is different, but how the fuck can the majority of the voters in the US be fine with the choice being between two geriatrics with visible mental decline and think “yep this is as good as it gets”? How can the voters of the democrats let the party elites get away with another Biden candidacy?
But like a badly managed company only thinks about the next quarter, the US seems to only think about just the next term and never further.
I understand your point. But that’s absolutely not what we were talking about.
The arguments you made were basically in favor of Trump and voting for Trump over Biden because he wasn’t involved in any conflicts and reduced American military presence in the Middle East. You even hinted at saying he wasn’t a war monger and painted him like he’s working towards world peace when his actions are actually going to create more problems for world peace and more suffering worldwide instead of actively trying to prevent them.