I applaud you, I really do. You’ve shown an awareness of the world as it is that many young people don’t seem to have; even as they’ve been inundated with information that might inform them that THIS IS A TRAP!
I don’t fault them, though, because much of that inundation also tells them that if they just ‘apply here for $$’ they’ll be fine and as a kid I know which truth I’d like to believe. My own husband, who is frighteningly bright at all matters other than finance, fell for those same lies.
The truth is that a parent needs to help their kids navigate the “D&D full of monsters dungeon” to take advantage of the build that makes one successful… and while it can be done it’s just ‘nightmare difficulty’. If you can play through this, the rest of life gets a hell of a lot easier.
If you can’t, you’re gonna have to rely on politicians to ‘make things right’. What’s the likelihood of that in this day and age?
@Gingeybook I’d like to posit that you could profit from educating others. Just throwing that out there.
It’s not a rule though, it’s working through the degree and being smart about your choices. My parents funded none of my college except meals because I ate at home
My boyfriend literally worked full time through his entire time in college which only covered rent, food, bare necessities, nothing leftover to cover books or tuition. He graduated magna cum laude, straight A student but he didn’t get any scholarships. Stayed up till 1 or 2 working at restaurants all week, woke up for 9am classes, both of which he had to bike to because he didn’t live on campus or at home like you.
You did experience the exception. Plenty of people make just as many and * way more* sacrifices than you and it doesn’t get them nearly as far.
We can’t all be doctors, lawyers, engineers, and programmers. And if we all got those degrees companies would start lowering their wages because of the increased competition.
We need people to teach English, manage the environment, contribute to the arts, etc. Makes us a more well-rounded society.
Partner has a STEM master’s degree from a good university. I make the same amount in desktop support with no degree.
Dad has an MBA. Works on databases for a living.
Sister has Bachelor’s in Industrial Design from a top design school in the US. Has worked for big name industry players. She make more money from her 1 year self-paced coding boot camp.
Most degrees are worthless these days, and it’s high time we start demanding refunds. Cancel student debt. The promises made to us in highschool about career paths were blatantly false. Also, tax billionaires.
The number from your aggregated average list is definitely not the norm from my personal job search over the last 6 months. The positions in the 50 and 60ks are for senior positions or American companies with Canada offices (with the exception of course for the CSPS, which is impossible to get into unless you know someone that can pull favours or you win a multiple years long lottery to qualify for an IT-01 pool).
I really wish it was bollocks because it’s been feeling like a whole bucket full of bollocks for a long time.
35-45k is the norm I’m seeing on Indeed and LinkedIn applications for my line of work. If I’m feeling particularly suicidal I’ll look at the same job applications for US residence and dream about buying the groceries I want, instead of the minimum I need to have enough for housing.
could you be more specific about what tech field you are talking about?
I too am a tech worker in Canada, but most of the jobs in my field (Kernel programmer) are starting at about 75K or so (or at least they were in 2018 when I was new), and compared to most of my peers I’m taking the passion route that pays a bit less. My wife went the dev ops route and found a similar starting salary and had I sold my soul to app dev (and the type of shop that hires only university grads) I would be looking at around 90K or so starting salary. 5 years on we are both making 115KCAD or so.
If I look at my alma maters’ coop statistics, I can see that even first year coop positions are going for an average of 20CAD/hr (so equivalent to ~40K a year) (and those numbers tend be skewed down since they include general math degrees, which have less market value).
So Either a lot has changed in the last 5 years (Job market seems to have cooled off a fair amount, but judging by my linkedin tech jobs are still very much in demand), you are talking about a tech job that doesn’t require a university degree, or their are extenuating circumstances that are making you less desirable. If it is the third there are generally quite a lot you can do to mitigate that, biggest among them being to build your portfolio (protip, small finished and/or published projects are much more impressive than large half done ones).
Without doxxing myself or giving away too much info, I am in UX and business analysis. I’m not coding (sometimes but sparingly). Maybe that’s where I’m going wrong.
My field is basically the bridge between devs and the client. Need enough technical knowledge to come up with software features to implement and enough people/business/process knowledge to make it work and temper expectations with all parties.
Feels like I should have just specialized in one thing instead of combining as that’s where all the money is.
Ah, I think most of this thread is using STEM and “Tech” a bit too interchangeably unfortunately. This makes a lot more sense I think unfortunately.
I think your career seems very skewed towards experience unfortunately, those sorts of dev/client relations positions can be extremely well paying but only late in your career. You might find it easier to start if you try the Project Manager route and then side grade into the analyst role you want. I’m no expert here, but I think there are some PM certs you can get to get over the no experience hump there.
I’d argue I work in tech as my role is very technical and deals with agile software development. I run scrums with developers and meet with non-tech savvy clients to translate their demands into actual workable software features (along with the overall experience and UI elements+testing).
Not really a PM role as my strengths are more technical than people/project managing. Thanks for the kind words!
I’ve had some really miserable jobs that barely put me through school and many of those jobs were less work/demoralizing than my job search. Feels just hopeless.
Expensive too. I don’t think I’ve ever jumped ship at the wrong time, but the consequences when there’s no other work free is terrible. Current customer service job is low pay but much easier to show up and do extra hours, nice staff and nice customers - a first!
Again these averages are skewed by the few exclusive jobs with high salaries (like the CRA and being an RBC IT exec for example from your link).
Is it possible to make $60k+ in Canada in IT? Sure. Is it likely? No.
For those that aren’t in the top 10% of the batch, there’s 100 $35k-45kish jobs for every 1 high level $60k+ job. If you aren’t a wizard or considered an SME then it’s the choice between having enough for rent to waiting for luck to be in your favour. The majority of those I graduated with are in similar positions.
The overachieving burnout-types are either starting business with limited success or have decent paying jobs. The rest I know (me included) are stuck looking for greener pastures.
So, my advice would be to either get some qualifications or certification on what you know to be desired skill sets that pay well.
Or find a startup and get some equity in return for a lesser wage. Risky but if it blows up you’ll be set for life.
I’ve been dirt poor twice, once when I left school and once when I couldn’t work because of health issues.
I’ve had over 30 different jobs in 30 years, I never stay if they don’t promote me, and retired at 40, got bored and now have 4 different income streams from storage units I bought cheap, and 3 part time gigs in agtech that I take no wages for, just % of revenue
Just saying, it’s never too late to pivot. Net zero is going to cost 100 trillion and most of that will be private investment in tech to mitigate climate change.
I love working in an industry that’s trying to mitigate it, releaves me of existential dread and pays great.
I’m very intrigued by your comment because if I am reading it as you have written it, you retired at 40 and have worked for 30 years. I wonder what countries have 10 year olds as active parts of the workforce?
I’ll try your highly relatable advice on having multiple property investments and getting useful certifications instead of the useless ITIL, UX, Scrum Master, and WAS/WCAG certs I’ve got.
Most junior/entry level positions that I’ve seen in my job search are situated in the $35-45k salary range (some in mid 60s but these were very few when I checked).
They required 3-5 years experience and described multiple roles at once (QA, testing, front end with back end as a strong candidate asset, UI/UX (as if it wasn’t it’s own profession as is).
Those are Canadian jobs. If I was to look at American companies with Canada offices, compensation gets better but the talent pool is super saturated since lots of people are competing for those jobs.
I’ve been looking for the better half of 2023 after remote work was ended for my position. The job search has been pretty demotivating as it looks like there’s a race to the bottom to cram as many qualifications into positions that pay the absolute least.
From the academic studies I had to research to inform my workplace on pros/cons of remote work, that wasn’t the conclusion. I’m paraphrasing but the majority of those that self reported their own productivity highlighted an overwhelming increase in productivity.
When it came down to aggregate productivity (in jobs with quantifiable KPIs), they found moderate to significant increases in productivity as long as management adjusted their managing style to accommodate remote. This opinion differed the higher up in management that studies polled.
For my workplace specifically, they had invested multiple billions throughout the entire portfolio into longterm building leases (10+ years) and could not leave these agreements so it was easier for upper management to justify the sunken cost of leases than employee opinion or perceived/measured increases in productivity.
I’m sorry but your conclusions you drew aren’t in line with reality, specifically at my organization.
Ego and sunken cost were the main reasons at least at my workplace to reimplement back to work orders.
The majority of higher level management were not able to pivot to a remote scenario and were not willing to invest in the training and additional tech infrastructure necessary to convert to remote by design. It would have required deep restructuring and loss of middle management positions.
Our organization had multiple decades long leases that were signed in 2018. The employer also received heavy lobbying from municipal businesses and government to return to office. A big reason for that was the calculation that a lack of in office presence would cause financial damage to the downtown sector of my city.
There are many facets to this issue and none of them have to do with actual employee productivity.
Going to a good university and getting a degree in STEM means you get a good paying job.
I graduated college in 2022 with an electrical engineering degree and $0 in debt as I worked through it.
I applaud you, I really do. You’ve shown an awareness of the world as it is that many young people don’t seem to have; even as they’ve been inundated with information that might inform them that THIS IS A TRAP!
I don’t fault them, though, because much of that inundation also tells them that if they just ‘apply here for $$’ they’ll be fine and as a kid I know which truth I’d like to believe. My own husband, who is frighteningly bright at all matters other than finance, fell for those same lies.
The truth is that a parent needs to help their kids navigate the “D&D full of monsters dungeon” to take advantage of the build that makes one successful… and while it can be done it’s just ‘nightmare difficulty’. If you can play through this, the rest of life gets a hell of a lot easier.
If you can’t, you’re gonna have to rely on politicians to ‘make things right’. What’s the likelihood of that in this day and age?
@Gingeybook I’d like to posit that you could profit from educating others. Just throwing that out there.
You experiencing the exception to the rule doesn’t mean the rule doesn’t apply to most everyone else.
It’s not a rule though, it’s working through the degree and being smart about your choices. My parents funded none of my college except meals because I ate at home
Lots of jobs will pay for a degree.
I didn’t “experience” the exception, I worked to be the exception.
I’ll be the first to admit that I did have some privilege in the fact that I lived with my parents the first 2 years.
But I worked hard to maintain grades so I could maintain scholarships that covered tuition.
I worked most nights during the week so that I could afford to pay for any other expense I had. Books, fees, transportation.
This isn’t just a matter of experiencing this situation, I made sacrifices to make it work
My boyfriend literally worked full time through his entire time in college which only covered rent, food, bare necessities, nothing leftover to cover books or tuition. He graduated magna cum laude, straight A student but he didn’t get any scholarships. Stayed up till 1 or 2 working at restaurants all week, woke up for 9am classes, both of which he had to bike to because he didn’t live on campus or at home like you.
You did experience the exception. Plenty of people make just as many and * way more* sacrifices than you and it doesn’t get them nearly as far.
We can’t all be doctors, lawyers, engineers, and programmers. And if we all got those degrees companies would start lowering their wages because of the increased competition.
We need people to teach English, manage the environment, contribute to the arts, etc. Makes us a more well-rounded society.
Partner has a STEM master’s degree from a good university. I make the same amount in desktop support with no degree.
Dad has an MBA. Works on databases for a living.
Sister has Bachelor’s in Industrial Design from a top design school in the US. Has worked for big name industry players. She make more money from her 1 year self-paced coding boot camp.
Most degrees are worthless these days, and it’s high time we start demanding refunds. Cancel student debt. The promises made to us in highschool about career paths were blatantly false. Also, tax billionaires.
Not even close. Tech jobs in Canada are often only a few dollars an hour more than min wage.
Bollocks, unless min is 30 bucks an hour?
United States. $110,140.
Switzerland. $97,518.
Israel. $71,559.
Denmark. $63,680.
Canada. $61,680.
Norway. $57,013.
Australia. $55,640.
United Kingdom. $55,275.
https://codesubmit.io/blog/software-engineer-salary-by-country/
The number from your aggregated average list is definitely not the norm from my personal job search over the last 6 months. The positions in the 50 and 60ks are for senior positions or American companies with Canada offices (with the exception of course for the CSPS, which is impossible to get into unless you know someone that can pull favours or you win a multiple years long lottery to qualify for an IT-01 pool).
I really wish it was bollocks because it’s been feeling like a whole bucket full of bollocks for a long time.
35-45k is the norm I’m seeing on Indeed and LinkedIn applications for my line of work. If I’m feeling particularly suicidal I’ll look at the same job applications for US residence and dream about buying the groceries I want, instead of the minimum I need to have enough for housing.
could you be more specific about what tech field you are talking about?
I too am a tech worker in Canada, but most of the jobs in my field (Kernel programmer) are starting at about 75K or so (or at least they were in 2018 when I was new), and compared to most of my peers I’m taking the passion route that pays a bit less. My wife went the dev ops route and found a similar starting salary and had I sold my soul to app dev (and the type of shop that hires only university grads) I would be looking at around 90K or so starting salary. 5 years on we are both making 115KCAD or so.
If I look at my alma maters’ coop statistics, I can see that even first year coop positions are going for an average of 20CAD/hr (so equivalent to ~40K a year) (and those numbers tend be skewed down since they include general math degrees, which have less market value).
So Either a lot has changed in the last 5 years (Job market seems to have cooled off a fair amount, but judging by my linkedin tech jobs are still very much in demand), you are talking about a tech job that doesn’t require a university degree, or their are extenuating circumstances that are making you less desirable. If it is the third there are generally quite a lot you can do to mitigate that, biggest among them being to build your portfolio (protip, small finished and/or published projects are much more impressive than large half done ones).
Without doxxing myself or giving away too much info, I am in UX and business analysis. I’m not coding (sometimes but sparingly). Maybe that’s where I’m going wrong.
My field is basically the bridge between devs and the client. Need enough technical knowledge to come up with software features to implement and enough people/business/process knowledge to make it work and temper expectations with all parties.
Feels like I should have just specialized in one thing instead of combining as that’s where all the money is.
Ah, I think most of this thread is using STEM and “Tech” a bit too interchangeably unfortunately. This makes a lot more sense I think unfortunately.
I think your career seems very skewed towards experience unfortunately, those sorts of dev/client relations positions can be extremely well paying but only late in your career. You might find it easier to start if you try the Project Manager route and then side grade into the analyst role you want. I’m no expert here, but I think there are some PM certs you can get to get over the no experience hump there.
Keep your chin up and good luck!
I’d argue I work in tech as my role is very technical and deals with agile software development. I run scrums with developers and meet with non-tech savvy clients to translate their demands into actual workable software features (along with the overall experience and UI elements+testing).
Not really a PM role as my strengths are more technical than people/project managing. Thanks for the kind words!
Looking for a job is a job far more punishing than many of the paid jobs I’ve had :(
I’ve had some really miserable jobs that barely put me through school and many of those jobs were less work/demoralizing than my job search. Feels just hopeless.
Expensive too. I don’t think I’ve ever jumped ship at the wrong time, but the consequences when there’s no other work free is terrible. Current customer service job is low pay but much easier to show up and do extra hours, nice staff and nice customers - a first!
Tech jobs on indeed show it even higher at 72k
https://ca.indeed.com/career/it-technician/salaries
If you’re talking entry level, then sure, but if you pick a fast growing company there will be opportunities to progress
Again these averages are skewed by the few exclusive jobs with high salaries (like the CRA and being an RBC IT exec for example from your link).
Is it possible to make $60k+ in Canada in IT? Sure. Is it likely? No.
For those that aren’t in the top 10% of the batch, there’s 100 $35k-45kish jobs for every 1 high level $60k+ job. If you aren’t a wizard or considered an SME then it’s the choice between having enough for rent to waiting for luck to be in your favour. The majority of those I graduated with are in similar positions.
The overachieving burnout-types are either starting business with limited success or have decent paying jobs. The rest I know (me included) are stuck looking for greener pastures.
So, my advice would be to either get some qualifications or certification on what you know to be desired skill sets that pay well.
Or find a startup and get some equity in return for a lesser wage. Risky but if it blows up you’ll be set for life.
I’ve been dirt poor twice, once when I left school and once when I couldn’t work because of health issues.
I’ve had over 30 different jobs in 30 years, I never stay if they don’t promote me, and retired at 40, got bored and now have 4 different income streams from storage units I bought cheap, and 3 part time gigs in agtech that I take no wages for, just % of revenue
Just saying, it’s never too late to pivot. Net zero is going to cost 100 trillion and most of that will be private investment in tech to mitigate climate change.
I love working in an industry that’s trying to mitigate it, releaves me of existential dread and pays great.
I’m very intrigued by your comment because if I am reading it as you have written it, you retired at 40 and have worked for 30 years. I wonder what countries have 10 year olds as active parts of the workforce?
I’ll try your highly relatable advice on having multiple property investments and getting useful certifications instead of the useless ITIL, UX, Scrum Master, and WAS/WCAG certs I’ve got.
Take care!
Tech as in STEM and CS? No possible way engineer gigs of any stripe are that low
Nah UX and business analyst. One needs to be very technical while also very aware of business process and human factors.
Wtf…why? Is there just too many of them?
Most junior/entry level positions that I’ve seen in my job search are situated in the $35-45k salary range (some in mid 60s but these were very few when I checked).
They required 3-5 years experience and described multiple roles at once (QA, testing, front end with back end as a strong candidate asset, UI/UX (as if it wasn’t it’s own profession as is).
Those are Canadian jobs. If I was to look at American companies with Canada offices, compensation gets better but the talent pool is super saturated since lots of people are competing for those jobs.
Yo, if your in tach getting paid this shit, you need to find a new company.
I’ve been looking for the better half of 2023 after remote work was ended for my position. The job search has been pretty demotivating as it looks like there’s a race to the bottom to cram as many qualifications into positions that pay the absolute least.
deleted by creator
From the academic studies I had to research to inform my workplace on pros/cons of remote work, that wasn’t the conclusion. I’m paraphrasing but the majority of those that self reported their own productivity highlighted an overwhelming increase in productivity.
When it came down to aggregate productivity (in jobs with quantifiable KPIs), they found moderate to significant increases in productivity as long as management adjusted their managing style to accommodate remote. This opinion differed the higher up in management that studies polled.
For my workplace specifically, they had invested multiple billions throughout the entire portfolio into longterm building leases (10+ years) and could not leave these agreements so it was easier for upper management to justify the sunken cost of leases than employee opinion or perceived/measured increases in productivity.
deleted by creator
I’m sorry but your conclusions you drew aren’t in line with reality, specifically at my organization.
Ego and sunken cost were the main reasons at least at my workplace to reimplement back to work orders.
The majority of higher level management were not able to pivot to a remote scenario and were not willing to invest in the training and additional tech infrastructure necessary to convert to remote by design. It would have required deep restructuring and loss of middle management positions.
Our organization had multiple decades long leases that were signed in 2018. The employer also received heavy lobbying from municipal businesses and government to return to office. A big reason for that was the calculation that a lack of in office presence would cause financial damage to the downtown sector of my city.
There are many facets to this issue and none of them have to do with actual employee productivity.