I have no issue with oral sex between consenting adults. But this meme would not be as well received if the genders were reversed. It’s hard to even imagine someone posting “always be there for your man in a time of crisis” with the woman going down on the guy.
The reason why it’s taboo if the genders were reversed is because there is a long and well documented history of non-consent when genders are reversed.
Was there non-consent where gals are forcing guys? Very likely. However what evidence I’ve seen suggests this is dwarfed by guys forcing gals.
Fair enough, I admit that norms change depending on where you’re posting online. Norms on 4chan vs Reddit will differ wildly. But I don’t think that a post with the genders reversed would do so well here on Lemmy in a general sub like !memes. So maybe I’ve overstated the point but my main criticism remains the same.
Yes, I suppose if you ignore every single bit of the last few hundred years worth of context, it would be hard to understand why people might be ok with this, but not necessarily the reverse.
Fortunately that context is available to you, so what I have trouble understanding is why you’re not accounting for that. Maybe you could elaborate, or perhaps do some perspective taking on why historically oppressed groups have certain sensitivities that privileged groups do not have. You might even come to realize that treating everyone exactly the same after not doing so for a very long time doesn’t come across as terribly fair. Because, you know, it isn’t.
You’ve conceded my point that it would be insensitive if we reversed the genders. So now the question is whether it is okay for us to show women doing something to men in cases where we are not comfortable with men doing that same action to women.
And here I’m going to respectfully disagree. I do not agree with your claim that being a part of a more historically oppressed group comes with a different set of standards for behavior. This is like saying its fine for obese people to make fun of skinny people–but not vice versa–because the obese people have more often been marginalized in society. We wouldn’t accept that reasoning in the case of body type and we also shouldn’t accept it in the case of gender.
So now the question is whether it is okay for us to show women doing something to men in cases where we are not comfortable with men doing that same action to women.
I think what you actually are aiming at is the question: Why is this meme upvoted? And why do you think the meme with reversed genders wouldn’t be?
The implication is that, yes, the same parity of standards should hold across groups. I myself am both religious and a racial minority (in the US) and I would not do anything to a white atheist that I wouldn’t want them to do to me.
Note that I’m not saying that everyone should behave the exact same no matter what their background. I’m saying that behavior that is judged to be good or bad for one group should also be judged the same way for another group. There are some philosophical reasons behind this claim (I’m essentially denying moral relativism) but I don’t want to derail the conversation.
I agree that it would look quite different with the genders reversed. However, gender equality is not like mathematical equality, where every situation needs to be reversible.
Women have traditionally been less sex-positive and less dominant, which many consider indicators of a lack of true gender equality, so a progressive community will celebrate a reversal of that.
Bad behavior is still bad behavior, regardless of who’s doing it. The oppressed engaging in the same behavior as their former oppressors is not equality, it’s just more oppression.
Well, consent is non-negotiable. I understood the comic as depicting a consenting couple.
As for power dynamics, I’m certainly not on board with her having communicated, she had an emergency. That is just disrespectful. But that one looks bad on both genders.
The existence of power dynamics in a relationship in general always looks bad, for both sides, in my opinion.
I guess the problem is the assumption that the man is consenting. A meme is not a place to go for realistic depictions of sex, though. I think this one is playing off that to create conflict/engagement.
Everyone here will pretend they would be fine with it now that you called out the hypocrisy. Or they’ll argue men deserve it as some kind of “payback”, in which case it’s really not about equality of course.
I’m sorry, they’ll argue that men deserve what as a form of payback? Cause you’re phrasing it like there’s some kind of discrmination or persecution against men going on here and I fail to see it.
It doesn’t have to be persecution to be sexist and therefore hypocritical in a culture that claims to be opposed to sexism. I’m personally fine with a joke like this, I just also happen to think that if the characters in this one were reversed there would be all sorts of outrage and accusations of toxic masculinity.
That context matters, though. We live in a world where women are historically predated on by men, which would make the gender-swapped version insensitive. Absent that context, I think this works he fine in either gender position, but because of that context, showing it this way isn’t as bad as showing it with the genders reversed. With that in mind the difference isn’t hypocritical.
That’s a roundabout way of saying that all men should be okay with it because some men have historically done the same thing to women, which is what I meant by the word “payback”. I disagree with the premise that one is acceptable but not both. Either both are or both aren’t, that’s the only position that actually describes equality.
This image illustrates why pure “equality” isn’t the right goal pretty well I think. I’m not saying all men or any men need to be OK with anything. It’s not payback, it’s that each has a different impact based on context of the reality that we live in.
So we want people to have an equal outcome. That’s perfectly fine, and something I fully support. The difference is that no one in the right image has to be treated badly for everyone to be happy. If we accept that, in the abstract and lacking full context of possible consensual behavior between adults, objectifying people sexually is treating people badly, then we shouldn’t want it for anyone, nor find it amusing.
I didn’t understand your comment at first because I thought the cartoons were both women. (I guess the one on the right had a bit of facial hair and masculine features.)
Switching it to two guys wouldn’t make a difference but I can see how male-left, female-right might look worse. But it really shouldn’t.
It’s a short cartoon. I read it as a playful, consenting couple having fun with each other. I don’t think it’s one partner luring the other in on false pretenses of an emergency and forcing them to perform oral sex. The gender arrangement shouldn’t affect that.
Have you been in a relationship before, when its stressful you help each other, if she wants an orgasm you give it, the street flows both ways. Its not always about sex either, fuck some times im the one that wants to cuddle. You seem to be quite the prude, and reading way too much into this, for the sake of your soul go get laid.
Go get laid? Damn, you sure got me. I’m going to go sit in a corner and think about how not to get owned. If only I had said something in my comment to indicate to anyone who can read that I had no problem with oral sex. I have realized the error of my ways and bow down to a sexually enlightened individual, such as yourself. Thank you @Thcgrasscity for your well thought out response.
Unless you have proof, this claim of yours is simply a fantasy.
In fact, you can find plenty of spaces online where memes like this one, but with the genders reversed, are shared and well liked and sometimes they even mean what they depict unironically.
Actually, this very posts proofs you wrong, since yours and the comment “Bonk” (which just means “too horny”) are the top liked comments.
It really does seem like you just want to soapbox an opinion.
You can find spaces online for literally any position you like.
I concede your point that my comment got upvoted but 1) I didn’t know how many upvotes it would get before I commented and 2) The post itself is still heavily upvoted. I’m just offering a dissenting opinion to the post’s popularity; I’m not on a soapbox.
I don’t want to sound like an incel, and I like eating vag/salad as much as the next guy, but imagine this image with the genders reversed
IMO either party doing this is fine as long as it’s discussed and within the comfort bounds of the people in the relationship.
I think the problem is an expectation when there has been no discussion about whether or not it’s within someone’s limits.
I have no issue with oral sex between consenting adults. But this meme would not be as well received if the genders were reversed. It’s hard to even imagine someone posting “always be there for your man in a time of crisis” with the woman going down on the guy.
I can only speak for myself but I wouldn’t really mind it the other way around as long as there’s no implied use of force or manipulation.
Feel free to reverse the genders & post this on twitter then. Getting banned from the internet speedrun any%
Twitter = the internet
You can try on any platform. The result will be the same outside of probably incel simp imageboard chans.
I believe “consenting” is key here.
The reason why it’s taboo if the genders were reversed is because there is a long and well documented history of non-consent when genders are reversed.
Was there non-consent where gals are forcing guys? Very likely. However what evidence I’ve seen suggests this is dwarfed by guys forcing gals.
im gonna post a reversed version of this im really curious what’ll happen
Removed by mod
Fair enough, I admit that norms change depending on where you’re posting online. Norms on 4chan vs Reddit will differ wildly. But I don’t think that a post with the genders reversed would do so well here on Lemmy in a general sub like !memes. So maybe I’ve overstated the point but my main criticism remains the same.
Well that’s just because you don’t checks notes come from a heavy kink community background
Different “strokes” for different folks, my friend.
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Yes, I suppose if you ignore every single bit of the last few hundred years worth of context, it would be hard to understand why people might be ok with this, but not necessarily the reverse.
Fortunately that context is available to you, so what I have trouble understanding is why you’re not accounting for that. Maybe you could elaborate, or perhaps do some perspective taking on why historically oppressed groups have certain sensitivities that privileged groups do not have. You might even come to realize that treating everyone exactly the same after not doing so for a very long time doesn’t come across as terribly fair. Because, you know, it isn’t.
You’ve conceded my point that it would be insensitive if we reversed the genders. So now the question is whether it is okay for us to show women doing something to men in cases where we are not comfortable with men doing that same action to women.
And here I’m going to respectfully disagree. I do not agree with your claim that being a part of a more historically oppressed group comes with a different set of standards for behavior. This is like saying its fine for obese people to make fun of skinny people–but not vice versa–because the obese people have more often been marginalized in society. We wouldn’t accept that reasoning in the case of body type and we also shouldn’t accept it in the case of gender.
I think what you actually are aiming at is the question: Why is this meme upvoted? And why do you think the meme with reversed genders wouldn’t be?
I bet you want to tell us.
Would you say the same if we were talking about religions or races instead of genders?
The implication is that, yes, the same parity of standards should hold across groups. I myself am both religious and a racial minority (in the US) and I would not do anything to a white atheist that I wouldn’t want them to do to me.
Note that I’m not saying that everyone should behave the exact same no matter what their background. I’m saying that behavior that is judged to be good or bad for one group should also be judged the same way for another group. There are some philosophical reasons behind this claim (I’m essentially denying moral relativism) but I don’t want to derail the conversation.
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Yes i imagined it, very nice. Whats the next step?
I love you and I’m saving this.
I agree that it would look quite different with the genders reversed. However, gender equality is not like mathematical equality, where every situation needs to be reversible.
Women have traditionally been less sex-positive and less dominant, which many consider indicators of a lack of true gender equality, so a progressive community will celebrate a reversal of that.
Bad behavior is still bad behavior, regardless of who’s doing it. The oppressed engaging in the same behavior as their former oppressors is not equality, it’s just more oppression.
But situations regarding the handling of power dynamics and standards of consent/coercion absolutely should be reversible.
Well, consent is non-negotiable. I understood the comic as depicting a consenting couple.
As for power dynamics, I’m certainly not on board with her having communicated, she had an emergency. That is just disrespectful. But that one looks bad on both genders.
The existence of power dynamics in a relationship in general always looks bad, for both sides, in my opinion.
TIL feminism is not a progressive movement, and they only like one sided patriarchal benefits when convenient.
Nothing wrong with a consenting partner
Yes, but not quite the point I was making
I guess the problem is the assumption that the man is consenting. A meme is not a place to go for realistic depictions of sex, though. I think this one is playing off that to create conflict/engagement.
It’s a joke. People lost their sense of humor
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Man, it’s not a great message. But as far as jokes/memes go, this is funny as hell
It’s a joke.
What happened in the past decade that people stopped laughing at jokes?
If anyone takes this seriously them that’s their problem.
I mean, yours is objectively funnier aswell. This one falls pretty flat.
The real tragedy is that either of these pass as comedy these days. The bar couldn’t be lower.
Oh boy I’m sorry I’m the one to have to break it to you, but the bar could be a lot lower
Everyone here will pretend they would be fine with it now that you called out the hypocrisy. Or they’ll argue men deserve it as some kind of “payback”, in which case it’s really not about equality of course.
I’m sorry, they’ll argue that men deserve what as a form of payback? Cause you’re phrasing it like there’s some kind of discrmination or persecution against men going on here and I fail to see it.
It doesn’t have to be persecution to be sexist and therefore hypocritical in a culture that claims to be opposed to sexism. I’m personally fine with a joke like this, I just also happen to think that if the characters in this one were reversed there would be all sorts of outrage and accusations of toxic masculinity.
That context matters, though. We live in a world where women are historically predated on by men, which would make the gender-swapped version insensitive. Absent that context, I think this works he fine in either gender position, but because of that context, showing it this way isn’t as bad as showing it with the genders reversed. With that in mind the difference isn’t hypocritical.
That’s a roundabout way of saying that all men should be okay with it because some men have historically done the same thing to women, which is what I meant by the word “payback”. I disagree with the premise that one is acceptable but not both. Either both are or both aren’t, that’s the only position that actually describes equality.
This image illustrates why pure “equality” isn’t the right goal pretty well I think. I’m not saying all men or any men need to be OK with anything. It’s not payback, it’s that each has a different impact based on context of the reality that we live in.
So we want people to have an equal outcome. That’s perfectly fine, and something I fully support. The difference is that no one in the right image has to be treated badly for everyone to be happy. If we accept that, in the abstract and lacking full context of possible consensual behavior between adults, objectifying people sexually is treating people badly, then we shouldn’t want it for anyone, nor find it amusing.
OK well if you find objection in the depiction regardless of gender I respect that
What would be the issue then? 2 consenting people can show each other what they want sexually, no matter the gender
It would be fine in a porn comic, but provoke a scandal in a “regular” memes community
There are plenty of memes which are sexist towards women. They just aren’t perceived as sexist but simply as “funny”.
In my mind she has a cock. She also is built like an amazon, so she can just lift me up and flip me round for some standing 69. Nice
Its the internet. No imagination needed
My guess is that this was made by a dude who believes men and women can’t just be friends. I’m not sure if that’s an incel or not.
I didn’t understand your comment at first because I thought the cartoons were both women. (I guess the one on the right had a bit of facial hair and masculine features.)
Switching it to two guys wouldn’t make a difference but I can see how male-left, female-right might look worse. But it really shouldn’t.
It’s a short cartoon. I read it as a playful, consenting couple having fun with each other. I don’t think it’s one partner luring the other in on false pretenses of an emergency and forcing them to perform oral sex. The gender arrangement shouldn’t affect that.
But it would. That’s the whole point.
If the genders were reversed it would be seen completely differently.
It shouldn’t but it will.
And yet
I ain’t never dined at the Y, I am by any reasonable definition an incel…
But geez dude, lighten up.
Yeah! And that’s why men are actually the ones being discriminated against! /s
You’re not wrong but you’re completely missing the point
And what is that point exactly? Women get horny too some times? Men need to do oral sex more often? Please enlighten me.
Have you been in a relationship before, when its stressful you help each other, if she wants an orgasm you give it, the street flows both ways. Its not always about sex either, fuck some times im the one that wants to cuddle. You seem to be quite the prude, and reading way too much into this, for the sake of your soul go get laid.
Go get laid? Damn, you sure got me. I’m going to go sit in a corner and think about how not to get owned. If only I had said something in my comment to indicate to anyone who can read that I had no problem with oral sex. I have realized the error of my ways and bow down to a sexually enlightened individual, such as yourself. Thank you @Thcgrasscity for your well thought out response.
You know OP is the kind of guy who’s just itching to say his IQ.
Thank you.
Unless you have proof, this claim of yours is simply a fantasy. In fact, you can find plenty of spaces online where memes like this one, but with the genders reversed, are shared and well liked and sometimes they even mean what they depict unironically.
Actually, this very posts proofs you wrong, since yours and the comment “Bonk” (which just means “too horny”) are the top liked comments.
It really does seem like you just want to soapbox an opinion.
You can find spaces online for literally any position you like.
I concede your point that my comment got upvoted but 1) I didn’t know how many upvotes it would get before I commented and 2) The post itself is still heavily upvoted. I’m just offering a dissenting opinion to the post’s popularity; I’m not on a soapbox.
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