What sort of things qualify as within the reach of the government to you? I would consider the stock market outside of their reach. Bonds are, of course, very much in their reach. You can buy ETF funds that consist of non-US companies. VXUS comes to mind.
If your main concern is the US currency or just wanting your money to be out of US-based assets, I believe Interactive Brokers provides a lot of flexibility to move your money between assets and currencies. You’re still going to pay taxes and be subject to all US laws.
If your concern is US involvement in your personal financial affairs…good luck. The US has tremendous influence over the global financial system and no legitimate foreign organization is going to work with you unless you have substantial assets. The few countries that do not respect US influence are not particularly trustworthy and trying to do business with them will put you at significant legal risk.
You could also try converting to physical gold, but the US has confiscated gold before, so that’s not a sure bet.
Outside of the immediate reach requires you to open an offshore brokerage account; however thanks to FATCA reporting requirements, most banks don’t want to deal with you unless you have significant assets under management.
Back when FATCA was first introduced I was working in private wealth management for a bank in Luxembourg, and we decided to terminate all but 3 accounts held by US citizens, all of whom had assets above 700k USD. I believe 500k was the internally communicated cutoff.
Banks in Switzerland now typically require 1M CHF to open new accounts for anyone who isn’t onshore (Swiss citizen or resident), Hong Kong, Singapore and Panama also require minimum amounts between 500k to 1M USD. I think Bahamas, Bermudas, Virgin Islands, Caymans and all the other money islands ask for even higher deposits now.
One thing you could consider are the British channel islands (Jersey and Guernsey in particular), since Brexit they’ve had a bit of an offshore renaissance. HSBC Jersey for example only requires 100k GBP to open offshore accounts (though I didn’t check about FATCA requirements since I’m not a US citizen myself).
If all you want is keep smaller amounts outside of the US, you could look into wise.com, revolut and other money transfer services, they allow you to hold different currencies in physical accounts domiciled in other jurisdictions. Read: If you deposit USD and convert it to GBP, AUD or EUR, those funds will be physically stored in UK, Australia and Belgium respectively. Since wise is a British company (revolut as well btw), the US government at least won’t have immediate access.
If there are any online brokers that accept US customers with casual portfolio sizes, no idea.
Crypto of course is also an option, but I don’t trust it enough as long term asset storage solution.
Thank you 🙏
This is a very helpful jumping off point for further research
Anytime! You could also check some blogs like nomad capitalist and others, they offer solutions like incorporating a ltd. company in Georgia (the country) or Belize and stuff, but that also comes with a host of other requirements, reporting and otherwise.
Depending on your assets, there are also some countries like Grenada for example that come with a citizenship by investment program, where you get a passport if you invest either into government bonds or buy a property that you must hold for a certain number of years. If you’d be a citizen from there and casually forget to tick the box for US citizenship when opening your Hong Kong account, you might just get away with it. (Strictly not legal, though).
The Russian oligarchs all seemed to think superyatchts with fabrige eggs on board was a good idea, but then they all got seized when Russia invaded Ukraine 😅
Real Estate in NZ seems to be popular with American oligarchs such as Peter Thiel, didn’t seem to work as well for Kim Dotcom though 😅
No. Absolutely not.
US citizens are tax slaves. No matter where you live in the world, you owe federal tax to the US government every year. You’re required to report all of your assets every year. All of your holdings every year.
In fact, US citizens who have foreign Bank accounts, are required to disclose those bank accounts, and the bank is also required to disclose it to the United states. You will find that there are many banks in the world that will not allow US citizens to open accounts because they simply don’t want the paperwork
But wait! There’s more! If you renounce your citizenship, for tax purposes, you still owe the next 10 years in taxes to the US Federal government. Even though you are no longer a citizen
Good fucking luck on the ten year thing.
I’m personally familiar with the reporting and taxation of foreign banks and even foreign earned income.
Dunno why it didn’t occur to me that it would apply to investment/brokerage account’s as well 🤦♂️
Fun fact: you also need to report any money you got illegally on like 8z of your 1040. The government wants a cut of your crime money.
That is always so funny to me. “Hi IRS. I stole $10k worth of goods in 2023, but before I could sell them in 2024 the police confiscated them. Do I count this as a loss for 2024 or…?”
The U.S. Supreme Court in Tellier reiterated that the purpose of the tax code was to tax net income, not punish unlawful behavior.
So…yes kind of.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_illegal_income_in_the_United_States
Not really. It’s a tool to prosecute people who make their living by breaking the law.
… wait …
AHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAAHAHHHHA
Not sure what you’re getting at, but since you are legally required to pay taxes, and the 5th amendment protects you from self-incrimination, your tax statements are inadmissible in court.
The Revenue Service would much rather you pay your taxes, even if it was from an illegal activity, rather than just avoid paying them at all, to avoid the risk of prosecution.
I was laughing at my own statement:
… prosecute people who make their living by breaking the law.
At least being an US citizen is amazing and everyone respects you and wants to be you, right?! … Right?!!
I mean, better than being stateless and stuck in an airport and no country lets you in… I guess?
I from Krakozhia, I go New York City, now.
Why do you sound angry at Americans? You’ve never met most of them.
Angry? Not at all, most people are not bilionaires.
everyone respects you and wants to be you, right?! … Right?!!
This is why I ask
I got it because you commented on it. But you gotta look as an outsider. You guys voted for this insanity TWICE.
I did? Are you sure?
lol omfg are you high? 🤣
Finland, New Zealand, Spain, Japan, Singapore, all seem like strong options.
The best part of being a US citizen is being able to work in the US, everything else is kind of a downer.
If you renounce your citizenship, for tax purposes, you still owe the next 10 years in taxes to the US
Wow! Crazy.
Combine that with the observation that so many of them are trying to avoid taxes LOL
What about income earned in other countries? While living there? Lol
The US taxes it. There is a foreign earned income exclusion for the first $x though.
You owe federal tax on global income, but you can get a tax credit for local taxes paid on that income; So you pay max(US Federal, Foreign Local), but not the sum.
Unless it’s under what amount? :)
Risky, but cryptocurrency. Never a bad idea to diversify a bit but maybe don’t put your whole savings there.
As the current us government is very pro crypto, I’d say this is not only very risky, but you would also be buying into their narrative and possibly be an even greater part of it as it crashes and burns.
That said, you’re not wrong.
The government is in it for the pump and dump scam (I can’t believe those words fit together now and everyone will know what I mean). I suspect they are indifferent or ignorant about other cryptocurrencies.
I would be worried that when the scammers in charge dump their holdings, the resulting turmoil will affect other currencies as well. Demand-based markets don’t respond well nor rationally to panic.
That said, I also think the whole thing is a ponzi, and my understanding is of course affected by that. But I believe the logic above would apply in either case.
Be a billionaire.
$TRUMP coin, if you can buy up more than the foreign oligarchs you may become a designated domestic oligarch. May the odds be ever in your favor
But seriously please don’t buy any crypto scam this family shits out
you can avoid paying earned income taxes altogether by living outside of the US for more than 330 days out of the fiscal year.
this is called foreign earned income exclusion.
investment income is different; investment income is not excluded by the FEIE, only earned income, so you wouldn’t be able to avoid paying investment income tax to the US unless you immigrated to to another country.
Important note about this (though I don’t know how much you earn): you can only exempt up to 120000 dollar equivalent per year, and you must still file your taxes every year with the American government even if you don’t live there. Non-US bank accounts and investments also must be declared, even if you no longer live there.
I’m not American myself, but a colleague of mine is and she has mentioned having trouble with American agencies because some of these points (specifically the bank account point if I remember correctly).
Edit: corrections to my info in comment below.
i can clarify and correct those points for you up here as well
the max excluded income is variable, so this year it’ll be $126,500. the cap is regulated by the irs and goes up each year.
the FEIE(foreign earned income exclusion) form is form 2555, which you fill out with your regular taxes. it’s a very simple couple of pages that you fill in the blanks with the dates you were out of the country and your total earned income for the year, usually takes me fifteen minutes.
the declaration of foreign investment you mentioned is called the FBAR, an online form that takes less than a minute to fill out If you have more than 10,000 invested overseas.
If you have more than 10,000 USD invested overseas, you have to annually declare how much and which financial institutions your savings are in via the FBAR.
as long as you take the 10 to 15 minutes to fill out the FEIE, you won’t have any problems with the IRS excluding earned income.
Thank you for the corrections! I had no idea it was so simple. I think my colleague had problems because she wasn’t aware of the FBAR for a few years.
oh yeah, that’ll do it.
it’s funny, there’s actually a built-in option in the form for filing the fbar late because you didn’t know about it, I assume because late filings happen so often.
I file late just about every year…
Yeah - I’ve claimed it before. This isn’t really a tax avoidance question though.
It is, in a way. You want a strong 4th amendment, I think.
But there’s not much left of it (1), to “make sure everyone pays it’s fair share” and later to “keep you safe from terrorists”
Yup. I think you’re right.
I was very confused at the responses I was getting here at first, but after reading them and thinking about things a bit more it does basically come down to taxes even if it isn’t explicitly taxes I was trying to avoid.
TIL
All the perceived privacy, constitution weirdos and early crypto enthousiast advocating for privacy laws start to make more sense when you don’t consider your government as a perpetual force of good :)
Whoa whoa whoa - let’s not get tooooo crazy here…
😜
Just experience what you’re feeling. The angst, despair, uncertainty. Imagine it accumulating for decades. All whilst the majority of people at best dismiss your experience, telling you to chill out, proclaiming your feelings aren’t valid. Or worse, call you evil and anti-social :)
That’s the emotional context in which the US was born, and why some people are attracted to it’s constitution. It’s an exceptionally intelligent response to those feelings.
But to people who can’t empathize with those feelings: the colonies ceded from England due to taxes, they just didn’t want to contribute their fair share into the commonwealth. They’re evil and anti-social.
oh, so what did you mean by “outside the reach of the federal government” rather than tax avoidance, just foreign investment opportunities?
Seizing/freezing.
then all you have to do is file the FBAR and pay your taxes every year and you can invest anywhere you want, however much you want.
How so? You think reporting accounts to the IRS keeps the US from seizing/ freezing accounts?
Not following your train of thought
I assume you are afraid of a political act causing this and not because of a debt or criminal act? I don’t think the other poster gets that
⭐️
Yes, reporting foreign income and paying taxes is exactly what keeps the US from seizing and freezing accounts.
you said you don’t want to avoid paying taxes.
If you report your accounts and investment income and pay taxes, then you’re in no danger of the US government seizing or freezing your accounts.
I don’t know if you’ve been following the news but I’d say that’s wishful thinking at this point.
deleted by creator
Just in case: avoid ‘forex trading’ and CFDs, especially with MetaTrader and cTrader terminals.
I’ve also wondered this. Want to move and be vocal but scared of this threat.
Finally - someone who gets me 😊
Similar thoughts, trying to decide where to go
Where to go is tricky. I’m somewhat lucky in that my in laws live abroad. But it’s not a country where I would want to drop retirement funds to grow.
:)
1: Leave America.
2: JP Morgan just moved $4b in gold into its main vaults for a reason.
3: Guns also hold initial value well, though their long term performance isn’t particularly good.
There are, however, certain benefits to them. They are, of course, very specialized tools with intrinsic value and guns that have a particularly interesting and traceable history can increase in value substantially. For example, expect Luigi’s gun to be found at auction at some point.
For example, expect Luigi’s gun to be found at auction at some point.
So what you’re saying is: any gun can be made more valuable in the long term with a bit of careful planning 😂
well, first you would need to set up a brokerage account outside the US, and move your money over to it…
For now, though, you can invest in an Ex-US ETF, Vanguard has one that is essentially the total world stock index minus US companies. https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/etfs/profile/veu
Can a US citizen set up a brokerage outside the U.S.? If so, where?
I’m not talking about investing in foreign companies; I’m talking about where I can keep my money (other than “under the mattress”) that the federal government can’t seize/freeze.
Well, they can seize a lot of things because of reciprocal anti-terrorism money laundering agreements with most of the countries you’d want to trust with your money.
resources aimed at wealthy people offshoring their assets might be useful to you
Swiss banhs used to do this, but not anymore. Cayman islands is said to do this but I don’t know details. Otherwise russia or north korea might help. nothing where you should trust your money to though.
note that even though you might find a place to do this it is still illegal and it is generally not hard to follow money trails so you ard likely to be caught.
it is generally not hard to follow money trails so you ard likely to be caught.
They only do this to pedons, real people do as they please and nothing happens
where I can keep my money (other than “under the mattress”)
Put it around a pretty woman’s neck.
that the federal government can’t seize/freeze.
Look for a decent country’s citizen. 😉
Depends on how out of reach. Stocks exchanged in other, possibly hostile countries? (Edit: Right, needs that account to hold them that others are talking about, duh.) Property in other countries that allow it (eg. most of EU does afaik)?
Invest in a US adversary?
China? 🤔
I mean I doubt China is gonna let the US seize your assets.
(You’d be supporting an authoritarian country tho, but like… its an option 👀)
As opposed to… what?
