That’s the problem, you haven’t shown that at all. You just keep repeating yourself like a broken record and ignoring many holes in your argument. You just keep ignoring the elephant in the room. As far as I can tell, the real reason here is that it doesn’t fit your narrative that Europe doesn’t actually need cheap energy or the current industries that employ people. You see this as an opportunity to transition to renewables, and you apparently don’t care about the suffering involved in doing this transition in the fashion it’s being done. Telling people that their jobs are no longer necessary and that their skills are worthless is precisely what drives them to the right.
The “elephant in the room” that is maybe responsible for 10-15% of the overall problems we see in Europe. I have shown you this multiple times now. It just doesn’t fit the narrative that you are so stuck to, hence you keep ignoring the facts.
The facts are that massive civil unrest coincides with the economic war. You have yet to provide an alternative explanation for why that should happen. There are of course underlying problems that are inherent in capitalism, and the contradictions have been building for many decades now. The pandemic and the economic war on top of it are acting as catalysts triggering the systemic collapse. If you think that the current system will survive mostly as it is and just going to need some light reforms then you’re deluded.
What “mass civil unrest”? Those relatively rich petty bourgeoisie farmers in the Netherlands protesting environmental regulations which has nothing to do with energy prices? Or those few thousand people protesting in Moldova due to being highly effected by the war in Ukraine next door?
If anything, the narrative that the issues are mainly caused by the sanctions and the cut of energy exports from Russia (which they arn’t) is stabilizing the system. Which is precisely why those right-wing tabloids and neo-liberal publications from the UK are not afraid of pushing that narrative.
It’s utter dishonesty to claim that energy prices don’t play a role, especially in an energy intensive industry like framing. And as I’ve repeatedly said, the protests aren’t just happening in Netherlands. The protests are all over Europe. It’s absolutely incredible that you’re able to trivialize this in your head.
If anything, the narrative that the issues are mainly caused by the sanctions and the cut of energy exports from Russia (which they arn’t) is stabilizing the system. Which is precisely why those right-wing tabloids and neo-liberal publications from the UK are not afraid of pushing that narrative.
The UK is one of the biggest backers of the war, and it’s absurd to claim that British neocon media would be pushing a narrative that encourages the end of the war.
It’s obvious that it’s not possible to have a rational and honest discussion on the topic with you. However, we will see who is correct come spring when the current gas reserves run out. Either everything is gonna magically work out, or we’ll see an economic crash that pushes people to the right because the left ignored the problem.
Source? Because as a local I can tell you there aren’t any. Please share all those reports of protests all over Europe /s I wish there were some proper protests against the astonishing levels of bad governance here, but currently it isn’t happening.
absurd to claim that British neocon media would be pushing a narrative that encourages the end of the war.
Its only absurd when you have a total lack of understanding what is really happening. Public opinion polls still show broad support for Ukraine (and high economic anxiety). Thus by blaming the economic issues purely on the “evil Russians” they found a convenient scapegoat knowing full well that this will never result in increased support for leftist ideas.
Source? Because as a local I can tell you they aren’t. Please share all those reports of protests all over Europe /s I wish there were some proper protests against the astonishing levels of bad governance here, but currently it isn’t happening.
I’ve posted lots of sources here over the past couple of months. Literally tends of thousands of people protesting the war and NATO right now.
Its only absurd when you have a total lack of understanding what is really happening
This could only be said by somebody who has no understanding of basic arithmetic. Increased energy prices translate into higher costs for electricity, heating, and anything else that requires energy. Operation costs are going up across the board. Companies that aren’t able to handle the costs are closing down and laying people off. This is putting further stress on the social services system. And now there’s double digit inflation across Eurozone. As you yourself admit economic anxiety is high now, so it’s clear that people feel the problem personally.
Public opinion polls still show broad support for Ukraine (and high economic anxiety)
Public opinion is shaped by the media, and mainstream media in the west doesn’t explain that it’s the west that chose to start the economic war which is responsible for the crisis.
Thus by blaming the economic issues purely on the “evil Russians” they found a convenient scapegoat knowing full well that this will never result in increased support for leftist ideas.
Russia being used as a scapegoat is indeed convenient, yet that doesn’t mean the problems aren’t real. You have yet to explain what you expect to happen in the near future. Under the current capitalist system, what happens to all the people who cannot afford the rising cost of living? What are they meant to do while this alternative energy infrastructure is being built?
I never once said there aren’t economic problems. But they are predominantly caused by effects of the global pandemic and various dysfunctionalities of the late stage capitalism we find ourself in. Obscuring this fact by harping on about the relatively minor effect of the stop of gas exports from Russia and the economic sanctions is just playing into the hands of neo-liberals and right-wing demagogues as I tried to explain to you multiple times now.
There are certainly many challenges ahead of us to transition to a more sustainable economy, but claiming that there is no alternative to fossil fuels in the short term as you have repeatately done (while harping on about the “successful” transition in China the same time) is again just playing into the hands of neo-liberals and right-wing demagogues. But apparently that is too difficult to understand for you.
Oh so this is /r/LateStageCapitalism not the imperial system collapsing bro? Good thing you never looked up what LSC means - nothing! It’s a hook. A dumbfuck slogan.
I never once said there aren’t economic problems. But they are predominantly caused by effects of the global pandemic and various dysfunctionalities of the late stage capitalism we find ourself in.
You just keep stating this as a fact. What exactly is the basis on which you’ve convinced yourself of this. It’s pretty clear that the economic situation in Europe has significantly degraded by pretty much every metric since the start of the war. Why aren’t we seeing similar problems in North America if the pandemic is the root cause?
There are certainly many challenges ahead of us to transition to a more sustainable economy, but claiming that there is no alternative to fossil fuels in the short term as you have repeatately done (while harping on about the “successful” transition in China the same time) is again just playing into the hands of neo-liberals and right-wing demagogues. But apparently that is too difficult to understand for you.
You continue to dodge the question of what happens to all the people whose lives are being ruined right now under the existing capitalist system. China is doing precisely what I would consider rational. China made an actual concrete plan for how it will transition and how fossil fuels will be phased out. Europe has no such plan that I’m aware of. It’s just demagogues telling people that it’s all going to magically work out.
Source? Because as a local I can tell you there aren’t any. Please share all those reports of protests all over Europe /s I wish there were some proper protests against the astonishing levels of bad governance here, but currently it isn’t happening.
As a local, living in the Canary Islands and watching the news every day as the only channel I see on TV or reading the local newspaper or even seeing the posts in semaphores and lamps in street, I can tell you that, at least in Spain and near countries, is happening.
The news also show similarities in Germany. It is true that, sometimes, other news eclipse this a lot.
Edited: take this answer only as a reply to that part of the discussion and not anything else.
Fair enough there do seem to have been some recent demonstrations in Madrid, but they were either pandemic related or some political rallies by the far-right. Any examples of specifically energy-poverty related protests from Spain?
That’s the problem, you haven’t shown that at all. You just keep repeating yourself like a broken record and ignoring many holes in your argument. You just keep ignoring the elephant in the room. As far as I can tell, the real reason here is that it doesn’t fit your narrative that Europe doesn’t actually need cheap energy or the current industries that employ people. You see this as an opportunity to transition to renewables, and you apparently don’t care about the suffering involved in doing this transition in the fashion it’s being done. Telling people that their jobs are no longer necessary and that their skills are worthless is precisely what drives them to the right.
The “elephant in the room” that is maybe responsible for 10-15% of the overall problems we see in Europe. I have shown you this multiple times now. It just doesn’t fit the narrative that you are so stuck to, hence you keep ignoring the facts.
The facts are that massive civil unrest coincides with the economic war. You have yet to provide an alternative explanation for why that should happen. There are of course underlying problems that are inherent in capitalism, and the contradictions have been building for many decades now. The pandemic and the economic war on top of it are acting as catalysts triggering the systemic collapse. If you think that the current system will survive mostly as it is and just going to need some light reforms then you’re deluded.
What “mass civil unrest”? Those relatively rich petty bourgeoisie farmers in the Netherlands protesting environmental regulations which has nothing to do with energy prices? Or those few thousand people protesting in Moldova due to being highly effected by the war in Ukraine next door?
If anything, the narrative that the issues are mainly caused by the sanctions and the cut of energy exports from Russia (which they arn’t) is stabilizing the system. Which is precisely why those right-wing tabloids and neo-liberal publications from the UK are not afraid of pushing that narrative.
It’s utter dishonesty to claim that energy prices don’t play a role, especially in an energy intensive industry like framing. And as I’ve repeatedly said, the protests aren’t just happening in Netherlands. The protests are all over Europe. It’s absolutely incredible that you’re able to trivialize this in your head.
The UK is one of the biggest backers of the war, and it’s absurd to claim that British neocon media would be pushing a narrative that encourages the end of the war.
It’s obvious that it’s not possible to have a rational and honest discussion on the topic with you. However, we will see who is correct come spring when the current gas reserves run out. Either everything is gonna magically work out, or we’ll see an economic crash that pushes people to the right because the left ignored the problem.
Source? Because as a local I can tell you there aren’t any. Please share all those reports of protests all over Europe /s I wish there were some proper protests against the astonishing levels of bad governance here, but currently it isn’t happening.
Its only absurd when you have a total lack of understanding what is really happening. Public opinion polls still show broad support for Ukraine (and high economic anxiety). Thus by blaming the economic issues purely on the “evil Russians” they found a convenient scapegoat knowing full well that this will never result in increased support for leftist ideas.
I’ve posted lots of sources here over the past couple of months. Literally tends of thousands of people protesting the war and NATO right now.
This could only be said by somebody who has no understanding of basic arithmetic. Increased energy prices translate into higher costs for electricity, heating, and anything else that requires energy. Operation costs are going up across the board. Companies that aren’t able to handle the costs are closing down and laying people off. This is putting further stress on the social services system. And now there’s double digit inflation across Eurozone. As you yourself admit economic anxiety is high now, so it’s clear that people feel the problem personally.
Public opinion is shaped by the media, and mainstream media in the west doesn’t explain that it’s the west that chose to start the economic war which is responsible for the crisis.
Russia being used as a scapegoat is indeed convenient, yet that doesn’t mean the problems aren’t real. You have yet to explain what you expect to happen in the near future. Under the current capitalist system, what happens to all the people who cannot afford the rising cost of living? What are they meant to do while this alternative energy infrastructure is being built?
I never once said there aren’t economic problems. But they are predominantly caused by effects of the global pandemic and various dysfunctionalities of the late stage capitalism we find ourself in. Obscuring this fact by harping on about the relatively minor effect of the stop of gas exports from Russia and the economic sanctions is just playing into the hands of neo-liberals and right-wing demagogues as I tried to explain to you multiple times now.
There are certainly many challenges ahead of us to transition to a more sustainable economy, but claiming that there is no alternative to fossil fuels in the short term as you have repeatately done (while harping on about the “successful” transition in China the same time) is again just playing into the hands of neo-liberals and right-wing demagogues. But apparently that is too difficult to understand for you.
Oh so this is /r/LateStageCapitalism not the imperial system collapsing bro? Good thing you never looked up what LSC means - nothing! It’s a hook. A dumbfuck slogan.
You just keep stating this as a fact. What exactly is the basis on which you’ve convinced yourself of this. It’s pretty clear that the economic situation in Europe has significantly degraded by pretty much every metric since the start of the war. Why aren’t we seeing similar problems in North America if the pandemic is the root cause?
You continue to dodge the question of what happens to all the people whose lives are being ruined right now under the existing capitalist system. China is doing precisely what I would consider rational. China made an actual concrete plan for how it will transition and how fossil fuels will be phased out. Europe has no such plan that I’m aware of. It’s just demagogues telling people that it’s all going to magically work out.
As a local, living in the Canary Islands and watching the news every day as the only channel I see on TV or reading the local newspaper or even seeing the posts in semaphores and lamps in street, I can tell you that, at least in Spain and near countries, is happening.
The news also show similarities in Germany. It is true that, sometimes, other news eclipse this a lot.
Edited: take this answer only as a reply to that part of the discussion and not anything else.
Fair enough there do seem to have been some recent demonstrations in Madrid, but they were either pandemic related or some political rallies by the far-right. Any examples of specifically energy-poverty related protests from Spain?