It’s utter dishonesty to claim that energy prices don’t play a role, especially in an energy intensive industry like framing. And as I’ve repeatedly said, the protests aren’t just happening in Netherlands. The protests are all over Europe. It’s absolutely incredible that you’re able to trivialize this in your head.
If anything, the narrative that the issues are mainly caused by the sanctions and the cut of energy exports from Russia (which they arn’t) is stabilizing the system. Which is precisely why those right-wing tabloids and neo-liberal publications from the UK are not afraid of pushing that narrative.
The UK is one of the biggest backers of the war, and it’s absurd to claim that British neocon media would be pushing a narrative that encourages the end of the war.
It’s obvious that it’s not possible to have a rational and honest discussion on the topic with you. However, we will see who is correct come spring when the current gas reserves run out. Either everything is gonna magically work out, or we’ll see an economic crash that pushes people to the right because the left ignored the problem.
Source? Because as a local I can tell you there aren’t any. Please share all those reports of protests all over Europe /s I wish there were some proper protests against the astonishing levels of bad governance here, but currently it isn’t happening.
absurd to claim that British neocon media would be pushing a narrative that encourages the end of the war.
Its only absurd when you have a total lack of understanding what is really happening. Public opinion polls still show broad support for Ukraine (and high economic anxiety). Thus by blaming the economic issues purely on the “evil Russians” they found a convenient scapegoat knowing full well that this will never result in increased support for leftist ideas.
Source? Because as a local I can tell you they aren’t. Please share all those reports of protests all over Europe /s I wish there were some proper protests against the astonishing levels of bad governance here, but currently it isn’t happening.
I’ve posted lots of sources here over the past couple of months. Literally tends of thousands of people protesting the war and NATO right now.
Its only absurd when you have a total lack of understanding what is really happening
This could only be said by somebody who has no understanding of basic arithmetic. Increased energy prices translate into higher costs for electricity, heating, and anything else that requires energy. Operation costs are going up across the board. Companies that aren’t able to handle the costs are closing down and laying people off. This is putting further stress on the social services system. And now there’s double digit inflation across Eurozone. As you yourself admit economic anxiety is high now, so it’s clear that people feel the problem personally.
Public opinion polls still show broad support for Ukraine (and high economic anxiety)
Public opinion is shaped by the media, and mainstream media in the west doesn’t explain that it’s the west that chose to start the economic war which is responsible for the crisis.
Thus by blaming the economic issues purely on the “evil Russians” they found a convenient scapegoat knowing full well that this will never result in increased support for leftist ideas.
Russia being used as a scapegoat is indeed convenient, yet that doesn’t mean the problems aren’t real. You have yet to explain what you expect to happen in the near future. Under the current capitalist system, what happens to all the people who cannot afford the rising cost of living? What are they meant to do while this alternative energy infrastructure is being built?
I never once said there aren’t economic problems. But they are predominantly caused by effects of the global pandemic and various dysfunctionalities of the late stage capitalism we find ourself in. Obscuring this fact by harping on about the relatively minor effect of the stop of gas exports from Russia and the economic sanctions is just playing into the hands of neo-liberals and right-wing demagogues as I tried to explain to you multiple times now.
There are certainly many challenges ahead of us to transition to a more sustainable economy, but claiming that there is no alternative to fossil fuels in the short term as you have repeatately done (while harping on about the “successful” transition in China the same time) is again just playing into the hands of neo-liberals and right-wing demagogues. But apparently that is too difficult to understand for you.
Oh so this is /r/LateStageCapitalism not the imperial system collapsing bro? Good thing you never looked up what LSC means - nothing! It’s a hook. A dumbfuck slogan.
I never once said there aren’t economic problems. But they are predominantly caused by effects of the global pandemic and various dysfunctionalities of the late stage capitalism we find ourself in.
You just keep stating this as a fact. What exactly is the basis on which you’ve convinced yourself of this. It’s pretty clear that the economic situation in Europe has significantly degraded by pretty much every metric since the start of the war. Why aren’t we seeing similar problems in North America if the pandemic is the root cause?
There are certainly many challenges ahead of us to transition to a more sustainable economy, but claiming that there is no alternative to fossil fuels in the short term as you have repeatately done (while harping on about the “successful” transition in China the same time) is again just playing into the hands of neo-liberals and right-wing demagogues. But apparently that is too difficult to understand for you.
You continue to dodge the question of what happens to all the people whose lives are being ruined right now under the existing capitalist system. China is doing precisely what I would consider rational. China made an actual concrete plan for how it will transition and how fossil fuels will be phased out. Europe has no such plan that I’m aware of. It’s just demagogues telling people that it’s all going to magically work out.
Why do you think the US has just launched one of the biggest rescue plans ever for their economy via the “Inflation Reduction Act” that is all over the news? The issues are real and global. China is also seeing extreme economic difficulties ahead by all measures even their own manipulated data. Europe is not uniquely effected, it is just that the local neo-liberal elites see it in their interest to blame the issues on the war in Ukraine, or rather what is (rightly) widely perceived as the cause of that, i.e. the Russians.
Indeed the Chinese have a better plan for the transition to renewable energy (despite still being deeply dependant on fossil fuel, more so then Europe)… but the main reason why Europe doesn’t have a good plan is precisely because they got all that cheap gas from Russia. Germany even reduced their renewable energy production and replace it with natural gas plants in recent years. But you are again just trying to change the topic…
Why do you think the US has just launched one of the biggest rescue plans ever for their economy via the “Inflation Reduction Act” that is all over the news? The issues are real and global.
US has economic problems, but it’s not even remotely comparable to what Europe is currently experiencing. Meanwhile, US companies are charging Europe for LNG something like six times what they charge domestically. This is compounding the problem for Europe by enticing business to go to US.
China is also seeing extreme economic difficulties ahead by all measures even their own manipulated data.
Ah yes, China’s ManIpUlAtInG DaTa. 🤣 Also, not sure what these extreme difficulties you’re referring to are. You’ll have to be more specific about that.
Europe is not uniquely effected, it is just that the local neo-liberal elites see it in their interest to blame the issues on the war in Ukraine, or rather what is (rightly) widely perceived as the cause of that, i.e. the Russians.
Except that it is uniquely affected, and it will become more and more obvious in the coming months. The cause of that is European decision to cut itself off from Russia economically.
Indeed the Chinese have a better plan for the transition to renewable energy (despite still being deeply dependant on fossil fuel, more so then Europe)… but the main reason why Europe doesn’t have a good plan is precisely because they got all that cheap gas from Russia. Germany even reduced their renewable energy production and replace it with natural gas plants in recent years. But you are again just trying to change the topic…
Weird argument given that China gets the same cheap energy from Russia that Europe does. You’re once again making a nonsensical argument that lacks any consistency.
Meanwhile, renewable energy simply can’t provide replacement for fossil fuels. The only way to do it is to use nuclear energy as a backbone and supplement it with renewables. Germany has been shutting down nuclear energy because it’s run by ideologues who have no understanding of what they’re doing.
Please back that up with real sources, because you are extremely misinformed as I have already proven to you multiple times based on data you shared yourself.
And in a similar vein, you recently shared data about the energy sources China is using and they clearly showed that China is getting hardly any energy from Russia right now or in the past. Its mostly coal mined in China, plus an increasing percentage of nuclear and renewables.
I honestly don’t know any more what else to say… data from sources you shared yourself clearly proof you wrong and yet you continue to claim the same falsehoods. I think you need to sleep over this as you are not being rational any more.
Good news is that we’ll see who’s right soon enough. When spring rolls around then we’ll definitively see who was rational here and who’s been blowing smoke.
Source? Because as a local I can tell you there aren’t any. Please share all those reports of protests all over Europe /s I wish there were some proper protests against the astonishing levels of bad governance here, but currently it isn’t happening.
As a local, living in the Canary Islands and watching the news every day as the only channel I see on TV or reading the local newspaper or even seeing the posts in semaphores and lamps in street, I can tell you that, at least in Spain and near countries, is happening.
The news also show similarities in Germany. It is true that, sometimes, other news eclipse this a lot.
Edited: take this answer only as a reply to that part of the discussion and not anything else.
Fair enough there do seem to have been some recent demonstrations in Madrid, but they were either pandemic related or some political rallies by the far-right. Any examples of specifically energy-poverty related protests from Spain?
It’s utter dishonesty to claim that energy prices don’t play a role, especially in an energy intensive industry like framing. And as I’ve repeatedly said, the protests aren’t just happening in Netherlands. The protests are all over Europe. It’s absolutely incredible that you’re able to trivialize this in your head.
The UK is one of the biggest backers of the war, and it’s absurd to claim that British neocon media would be pushing a narrative that encourages the end of the war.
It’s obvious that it’s not possible to have a rational and honest discussion on the topic with you. However, we will see who is correct come spring when the current gas reserves run out. Either everything is gonna magically work out, or we’ll see an economic crash that pushes people to the right because the left ignored the problem.
Source? Because as a local I can tell you there aren’t any. Please share all those reports of protests all over Europe /s I wish there were some proper protests against the astonishing levels of bad governance here, but currently it isn’t happening.
Its only absurd when you have a total lack of understanding what is really happening. Public opinion polls still show broad support for Ukraine (and high economic anxiety). Thus by blaming the economic issues purely on the “evil Russians” they found a convenient scapegoat knowing full well that this will never result in increased support for leftist ideas.
I’ve posted lots of sources here over the past couple of months. Literally tends of thousands of people protesting the war and NATO right now.
This could only be said by somebody who has no understanding of basic arithmetic. Increased energy prices translate into higher costs for electricity, heating, and anything else that requires energy. Operation costs are going up across the board. Companies that aren’t able to handle the costs are closing down and laying people off. This is putting further stress on the social services system. And now there’s double digit inflation across Eurozone. As you yourself admit economic anxiety is high now, so it’s clear that people feel the problem personally.
Public opinion is shaped by the media, and mainstream media in the west doesn’t explain that it’s the west that chose to start the economic war which is responsible for the crisis.
Russia being used as a scapegoat is indeed convenient, yet that doesn’t mean the problems aren’t real. You have yet to explain what you expect to happen in the near future. Under the current capitalist system, what happens to all the people who cannot afford the rising cost of living? What are they meant to do while this alternative energy infrastructure is being built?
I never once said there aren’t economic problems. But they are predominantly caused by effects of the global pandemic and various dysfunctionalities of the late stage capitalism we find ourself in. Obscuring this fact by harping on about the relatively minor effect of the stop of gas exports from Russia and the economic sanctions is just playing into the hands of neo-liberals and right-wing demagogues as I tried to explain to you multiple times now.
There are certainly many challenges ahead of us to transition to a more sustainable economy, but claiming that there is no alternative to fossil fuels in the short term as you have repeatately done (while harping on about the “successful” transition in China the same time) is again just playing into the hands of neo-liberals and right-wing demagogues. But apparently that is too difficult to understand for you.
Oh so this is /r/LateStageCapitalism not the imperial system collapsing bro? Good thing you never looked up what LSC means - nothing! It’s a hook. A dumbfuck slogan.
Or you know… there are terms pre-dating the Reddit circle jerk and have been used by Marxists for more than 100 years.
I don’t mean it was invented BY reddit. You should read that article!
Like are you gonna start quoting Mark Fisher at me or something. Am I gonna hear about the professional managerial class.
You just keep stating this as a fact. What exactly is the basis on which you’ve convinced yourself of this. It’s pretty clear that the economic situation in Europe has significantly degraded by pretty much every metric since the start of the war. Why aren’t we seeing similar problems in North America if the pandemic is the root cause?
You continue to dodge the question of what happens to all the people whose lives are being ruined right now under the existing capitalist system. China is doing precisely what I would consider rational. China made an actual concrete plan for how it will transition and how fossil fuels will be phased out. Europe has no such plan that I’m aware of. It’s just demagogues telling people that it’s all going to magically work out.
Why do you think the US has just launched one of the biggest rescue plans ever for their economy via the “Inflation Reduction Act” that is all over the news? The issues are real and global. China is also seeing extreme economic difficulties ahead by all measures even their own manipulated data. Europe is not uniquely effected, it is just that the local neo-liberal elites see it in their interest to blame the issues on the war in Ukraine, or rather what is (rightly) widely perceived as the cause of that, i.e. the Russians.
Indeed the Chinese have a better plan for the transition to renewable energy (despite still being deeply dependant on fossil fuel, more so then Europe)… but the main reason why Europe doesn’t have a good plan is precisely because they got all that cheap gas from Russia. Germany even reduced their renewable energy production and replace it with natural gas plants in recent years. But you are again just trying to change the topic…
US has economic problems, but it’s not even remotely comparable to what Europe is currently experiencing. Meanwhile, US companies are charging Europe for LNG something like six times what they charge domestically. This is compounding the problem for Europe by enticing business to go to US.
Ah yes, China’s ManIpUlAtInG DaTa. 🤣 Also, not sure what these extreme difficulties you’re referring to are. You’ll have to be more specific about that.
Except that it is uniquely affected, and it will become more and more obvious in the coming months. The cause of that is European decision to cut itself off from Russia economically.
Weird argument given that China gets the same cheap energy from Russia that Europe does. You’re once again making a nonsensical argument that lacks any consistency.
Meanwhile, renewable energy simply can’t provide replacement for fossil fuels. The only way to do it is to use nuclear energy as a backbone and supplement it with renewables. Germany has been shutting down nuclear energy because it’s run by ideologues who have no understanding of what they’re doing.
Please back that up with real sources, because you are extremely misinformed as I have already proven to you multiple times based on data you shared yourself.
And in a similar vein, you recently shared data about the energy sources China is using and they clearly showed that China is getting hardly any energy from Russia right now or in the past. Its mostly coal mined in China, plus an increasing percentage of nuclear and renewables.
I honestly don’t know any more what else to say… data from sources you shared yourself clearly proof you wrong and yet you continue to claim the same falsehoods. I think you need to sleep over this as you are not being rational any more.
Good news is that we’ll see who’s right soon enough. When spring rolls around then we’ll definitively see who was rational here and who’s been blowing smoke.
As a local, living in the Canary Islands and watching the news every day as the only channel I see on TV or reading the local newspaper or even seeing the posts in semaphores and lamps in street, I can tell you that, at least in Spain and near countries, is happening.
The news also show similarities in Germany. It is true that, sometimes, other news eclipse this a lot.
Edited: take this answer only as a reply to that part of the discussion and not anything else.
Fair enough there do seem to have been some recent demonstrations in Madrid, but they were either pandemic related or some political rallies by the far-right. Any examples of specifically energy-poverty related protests from Spain?