Minnesota’s ban on 18- to 20-year-olds obtaining a permit to publicly carry a handgun violates the US Constitution, a federal appeals court ruled Tuesday.
unless black people are owning guns then they’ll be all for gun control
Red states tend to have some of the most free firearms laws in the country. And many of those states, particularly in the south, have large black populations. In fact, many of them have explicitly killed policies that were used to discriminate based on race, namely may-issue permitting laws.
SCOTUS pretty much shit canned the first half on the 2A a long time ago. Can’t remember the case, but they basically said a “well regulated militia” could be anyone.
ETA: as someone else pointed out, the case was DC v Heller.
Any way you cut it, the point was to have an armed citizenry capable of defending the country, and the 2nd was plainly defined in that context, so it makes perfect sense that the minimum requirement for bearing arms is being able to do so effectively: so where’s the training? Where’s the free gun after you prove yourself capable enough to be part of the national defense?
As it turns out, we have all that, it’s called the U.S. Military, an all volunteer force for the defence of the nation. (They don’t let you keep your gun anymore).
Want to do it part time, on an on-call basis? National Guard.
Id love it if we moved to the swiss model of mandatory training for everyone when they’re old enough, issuing them a firearm, and telling them to stay trained just in case, that would be awesome. Instead we have “buy it at Walmart, figure it out”, and zero part of that is run well.
For civilians? Hunter safety, otherwise you’re paying for a private tutor.
I’m all down for more training, so long as it’s free. We should not gatekeep civil liberties behind fees.
Would you be okay with people having to pay $200 for a training class on how to vote before you were allowed to vote? Of course not. The same is true for the right to own a firearm.
Funny because you do have to pay for documents like a birth certificate and ID in order to vote in some places. When I got my ID renewed years ago my original birth certificate from the '80s was somehow no longer valid so I had to buy a new one for $60 from some government records company.
Both the Federalist papers, the militia acts, and current government code confirm that everyone not part of the standing military or national guard as the militia. The militia doesn’t get free guns, they were expected to bring their own privately owned guns and ammunition when called upon. I would not mind free guns though.
Training should be part of the public education system, but gun/hunters safety and shooting sports have been removed because it’s not kosher to expose kids/teens to guns. Due to the prevalence of guns in the US it just makes sense, because treating guns like abstinence only sex ed will have the same shitty results.
The “buy it at Walmart and figure it out” is because you can’t lock rights behind hoops to jump through, so adopting a Swiss model and making fun education/training part of compulsory education is definitely a good minimum.
There are Indeed Walmarts that sell handguns (Alaska). And while there are no Walmarts that will sell a handgun to an 18yo, there are legal ways for an 18yo to both purchase and possess a handgun.
I agree. Schools need to teach kids practical skills. Firearms handling and use among them. Other good ones would be how to file taxes, how credit cards/loans work, how to repair basic items around the house, how to cook basic meals, etc. It doesn’t need to dominate schooling, a class or two covering the above in highschool would be plenty. Most of those topics are pretty short, but very important for life.
a militia in the constitution was similar to firefighters - you were expected to come help people and the failure to do so could result in losing your 2nd amendment rights.
The idea that a militia = a consumer is a modern rewrite.
It’s not modern. Or at least 1792 English was a lot more modern than the gun lobby wants people to think. It absolutely included rules and regulations.
Also, which state isn’t a republic? Point it out. Or are you trying to threaten us with twisting language even further to benefit a political party?
It is decidedly not the one used in that context given the history of America under the articles of confederation and the revolution.
I don’t know who “us” is but I decidedly not threatening anyone. My point was that taking law to mean anything but what it meant is lunacy and will simply lead to people misreading it to achieve political goals defying the legislative process. Changes in law should be done via the legislature.
You can deny it all you want. The Etymology is clear. If they wanted to write it as “healthy” or “well oiled” they would have. Instead they used the word that meant to control by rules since the Roman Empire.
They also could have written “limited” but they didn’t. The people at the time widely understood it to refer to a militia attended to, to ensure it efficacious. The regulations they had at the time were there to ensure they were well trained and armed. See the militia acts of 1792 & 1795 or for example or any of the other many acts from the period like 1786 N.H. Laws 409-10, An Act for Forming and Regulating the Militia within this State,. Which provided:
[E]very non-commissioned officer and soldier, both in the alarm list and training band, shall be provided, and have constantly in readiness, a good musket, and a bayonet fitted thereto, with a good scabbard and belt, a worm, priming-wire and brush, a cartridge-box that will hold at least twenty-four rounds, six flints, and a pound of powder, forty leaden balls fitted to his gun, a knap sack, a blanket, and a canteen that will hold one quart.
When they wanted their militias well regulated they meant this.
Yes. True. Everything had at least half a dozen reasons for and against, that were all debated exhaustively.
But this specific right, is the only one that actually describes a reason for its existence. And that reason no longer exists. That’s the important part.
6A) …to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
I would argue that the militia still exists it’s just the government isn’t doing it’s duty to regulate the body of the people to be capable of common defense well. And to assume a right protected by the constitution could be outmoded by government inaction is self defeating logic.
Of course they are. It’s the whole military. More specificaly The National Guard. We have permanent professional soldiers who replaced the militia long ago.
The military and national guard aren’t militia, they are armies. A select militia is no militia at all. And professional soldiers can’t replace a militia as it is them who on rare occasion they are tasked with opposing.
At the siege of Boston the Connecticut militia along with the Green Mountain Boys, and the men of Massachusetts showed up to oppose the British regulars. The regulars were professional soldiers. The rest the militia.
Our professional army maybe our ally in liberty today but history has shown that may not always be the case.
10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes:
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
No, When It Was Written they were worried that US Army would be busy and the slave rebellion wouldn’t be able to put down without a local militia. That needs to be remembered every time this argument comes up. The Second Amendment exists because because they were afraid of slave rebellions. Patrick Henry in particular in this case.
The idea that militias were solely for suppressing slave rebellions is patently wrong. If that was the case why would Vermont (a state that never allowed slavery) have had a militia.
The Federalist Papers clearly painted their purpose.
Where do you think cops came from? They largely grew out of slave catcher Patrols. State organized groups of armed men, ie exactly what Patrick Henry wanted.
That doesn’t even really matter to the point I was making.
The 2nd amendment is the only one in the bill of rights to explicitly state the reason for it. And organized state militias don’t exist anymore. So it really doesn’t need to either.
Like the background checks and waiting periods already put onto gun purchases. No point in age restricting them to 21 as well until the government declares it to be the new adulthood age.
They aren’t, I was making a point that the well regulated in your context is being met, but shall not be infringed means not denying it to legal adults due to age.
As currently interpreted under law. A militia can be anyone legally able to aquire a firearm under federal law. Therefore, this person can start a one man militia and aquire a firearm.
That’s not how US law works. The Supreme Court wants us to believe we’re all the militia, so that means we can all flounce around with our boom toys and if ten people get shot then it’s just an unavoidable tragedy.
Trying to spin the rulings to something that would be more rational isn’t an honest conversation.
2A even has the term “well regulated” in it.
They only care about the second half.
unless black people are owning guns then they’ll be all for gun control… like when the black panthers armed themselves.
Red states tend to have some of the most free firearms laws in the country. And many of those states, particularly in the south, have large black populations. In fact, many of them have explicitly killed policies that were used to discriminate based on race, namely may-issue permitting laws.
Pretty sure the above commenter was referencing the origins of California’s strict gun laws.
One of the most liberal states in the Union?
SCOTUS pretty much shit canned the first half on the 2A a long time ago. Can’t remember the case, but they basically said a “well regulated militia” could be anyone.
ETA: as someone else pointed out, the case was DC v Heller.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller
Heller, 2008.
deleted by creator
Let me guess, you would “well regulate” all militias to be wealthy white people?
A well regulated watch is a watch in proper working order. ‘Well regulated’ does not mean ‘to pass regulations’ in this context.
Example sentences from online:
“regulate one’s habits”
“regulate the pressure of a tire”
Now do militia.
Any way you cut it, the point was to have an armed citizenry capable of defending the country, and the 2nd was plainly defined in that context, so it makes perfect sense that the minimum requirement for bearing arms is being able to do so effectively: so where’s the training? Where’s the free gun after you prove yourself capable enough to be part of the national defense?
As it turns out, we have all that, it’s called the U.S. Military, an all volunteer force for the defence of the nation. (They don’t let you keep your gun anymore).
Want to do it part time, on an on-call basis? National Guard.
Id love it if we moved to the swiss model of mandatory training for everyone when they’re old enough, issuing them a firearm, and telling them to stay trained just in case, that would be awesome. Instead we have “buy it at Walmart, figure it out”, and zero part of that is run well.
For civilians? Hunter safety, otherwise you’re paying for a private tutor.
I’m all down for more training, so long as it’s free. We should not gatekeep civil liberties behind fees.
Would you be okay with people having to pay $200 for a training class on how to vote before you were allowed to vote? Of course not. The same is true for the right to own a firearm.
Funny because you do have to pay for documents like a birth certificate and ID in order to vote in some places. When I got my ID renewed years ago my original birth certificate from the '80s was somehow no longer valid so I had to buy a new one for $60 from some government records company.
Both the Federalist papers, the militia acts, and current government code confirm that everyone not part of the standing military or national guard as the militia. The militia doesn’t get free guns, they were expected to bring their own privately owned guns and ammunition when called upon. I would not mind free guns though.
Training should be part of the public education system, but gun/hunters safety and shooting sports have been removed because it’s not kosher to expose kids/teens to guns. Due to the prevalence of guns in the US it just makes sense, because treating guns like abstinence only sex ed will have the same shitty results.
The “buy it at Walmart and figure it out” is because you can’t lock rights behind hoops to jump through, so adopting a Swiss model and making fun education/training part of compulsory education is definitely a good minimum.
Then maybe we should make sure it’s in proper working order. Because selling an 18 year old a handgun at Walmart with no training ain’t that.
You must not be American. There are literally no Walmarts that sell handguns, and if they did, it wouldn’t be legal to sell them to 18 year olds.
But they will sell you a long rifle at 16.
There are Indeed Walmarts that sell handguns (Alaska). And while there are no Walmarts that will sell a handgun to an 18yo, there are legal ways for an 18yo to both purchase and possess a handgun.
I agree. Schools need to teach kids practical skills. Firearms handling and use among them. Other good ones would be how to file taxes, how credit cards/loans work, how to repair basic items around the house, how to cook basic meals, etc. It doesn’t need to dominate schooling, a class or two covering the above in highschool would be plenty. Most of those topics are pretty short, but very important for life.
a militia in the constitution was similar to firefighters - you were expected to come help people and the failure to do so could result in losing your 2nd amendment rights.
The idea that a militia = a consumer is a modern rewrite.
Good thing we aren’t watches and there’s a definition that fits better.
You don’t want to play the game of “we can apply modern definitions” to the Constitution.
Hopefully this elucidates why that’s a bad idea:
Art 4 sect 4
It’s not modern. Or at least 1792 English was a lot more modern than the gun lobby wants people to think. It absolutely included rules and regulations.
Also, which state isn’t a republic? Point it out. Or are you trying to threaten us with twisting language even further to benefit a political party?
It is decidedly not the one used in that context given the history of America under the articles of confederation and the revolution.
I don’t know who “us” is but I decidedly not threatening anyone. My point was that taking law to mean anything but what it meant is lunacy and will simply lead to people misreading it to achieve political goals defying the legislative process. Changes in law should be done via the legislature.
You can deny it all you want. The Etymology is clear. If they wanted to write it as “healthy” or “well oiled” they would have. Instead they used the word that meant to control by rules since the Roman Empire.
They also could have written “limited” but they didn’t. The people at the time widely understood it to refer to a militia attended to, to ensure it efficacious. The regulations they had at the time were there to ensure they were well trained and armed. See the militia acts of 1792 & 1795 or for example or any of the other many acts from the period like 1786 N.H. Laws 409-10, An Act for Forming and Regulating the Militia within this State,. Which provided:
When they wanted their militias well regulated they meant this.
So you have polling from 1792 to cite? For the word being widely understood to mean something other than what it actually means?
Well Regulated meaning in working order and properly armed.
Militias don’t exist anymore, accept as a term for a cosplaying gun club.
Remember, when this was written people thought a permanent military would be used against the citizens, so they thought it better to not have one.
There were supporters of a standing army at the time notably George Washington President of the national when the Bill of Rights was enacted.
Yes. True. Everything had at least half a dozen reasons for and against, that were all debated exhaustively.
But this specific right, is the only one that actually describes a reason for its existence. And that reason no longer exists. That’s the important part.
I would argue that the militia still exists it’s just the government isn’t doing it’s duty to regulate the body of the people to be capable of common defense well. And to assume a right protected by the constitution could be outmoded by government inaction is self defeating logic.
Of course they are. It’s the whole military. More specificaly The National Guard. We have permanent professional soldiers who replaced the militia long ago.
The military and national guard aren’t militia, they are armies. A select militia is no militia at all. And professional soldiers can’t replace a militia as it is them who on rare occasion they are tasked with opposing.
At the siege of Boston the Connecticut militia along with the Green Mountain Boys, and the men of Massachusetts showed up to oppose the British regulars. The regulars were professional soldiers. The rest the militia.
Our professional army maybe our ally in liberty today but history has shown that may not always be the case.
The National Guard are the modern militia. Deployable by the Governor, not the President.
10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes:
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
So then only 17-45 year olds can legally own guns?
No, When It Was Written they were worried that US Army would be busy and the slave rebellion wouldn’t be able to put down without a local militia. That needs to be remembered every time this argument comes up. The Second Amendment exists because because they were afraid of slave rebellions. Patrick Henry in particular in this case.
Can you provide any reputable evidence or citations to back this up?
The idea that militias were solely for suppressing slave rebellions is patently wrong. If that was the case why would Vermont (a state that never allowed slavery) have had a militia.
The Federalist Papers clearly painted their purpose.
You’re thinking of cops. And yes, cops are not well regulated.
Where do you think cops came from? They largely grew out of slave catcher Patrols. State organized groups of armed men, ie exactly what Patrick Henry wanted.
That doesn’t even really matter to the point I was making.
The 2nd amendment is the only one in the bill of rights to explicitly state the reason for it. And organized state militias don’t exist anymore. So it really doesn’t need to either.
And damn were they almost right a few times, and 100% were right if you count cops under that term.
That includes rules. You guys want to ignore an entire part of the definition of the word.
Like the background checks and waiting periods already put onto gun purchases. No point in age restricting them to 21 as well until the government declares it to be the new adulthood age.
Oh so now rules are okay under the 2nd amendment, you just don’t like them?
They aren’t, I was making a point that the well regulated in your context is being met, but shall not be infringed means not denying it to legal adults due to age.
So why can’t the militia put an age floor in? What’s different about that rule as opposed to background checks?
As currently interpreted under law. A militia can be anyone legally able to aquire a firearm under federal law. Therefore, this person can start a one man militia and aquire a firearm.
That’s not how US law works. The Supreme Court wants us to believe we’re all the militia, so that means we can all flounce around with our boom toys and if ten people get shot then it’s just an unavoidable tragedy.
Trying to spin the rulings to something that would be more rational isn’t an honest conversation.