TikTok is taking the US government to court.

  • istanbullu@lemmy.ml
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    5 months ago

    Every negative thing about Tiktok is also true about Instagram and Twitter.

    • JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyz
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      5 months ago

      TikTok is solely responsible for that AI voice. Instagram and Twitter have never done anything that compares to the pain and suffering that has caused to humanity.

      • ArmokGoB@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        5 months ago

        To be fair, so is League of Legends and every product made by Tencent and their subsidiaries. If they’re going to go ahead with a ban, they should at least keep it consistent.

        • UnpluggedFridge@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          The real question you are asking is whether inaction is worse than inconsistency. Should we not put out a fire unless we can put out all fires? What you are suggesting is to let something burn for the sake of consistency.

          • ArmokGoB@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            5 months ago

            I want to avoid “everyone has free speech, but some have more free speech than others” from becoming precedent.

    • Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      5 months ago

      I’m basically indifferent to Instagram (IDK what it’s about) and I’ve hated Twitter since I first learned about its high concept. Twitter makes people stupid.

    • TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      Except the part about the authoritarian regime, the US has many problems but it’s still a democracy.

      Edit: I’m glad you downvote me because you never had to learn what living in a dictatorship is like, I didn’t, but my parents generation still did and I can tell you it looks nothing like the US of today. Women were only allowed to be housewives, groups of more than 2 people couldn’t talk openly in the street because that can lead to dangerous ideas spreading out, you would have to be careful what you said even at home because your neighbour could be listening to sell you out, all pieces of art and media would go through an government office to get censored, and so on, so yes, I stand with what I said, the US is a free democratic country even if you have been spoiled enough to think it is not.

      • kava@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Hey I was born in a country with a military dictatorship and my parents grew up under it.

        That’s exactly why I believe in freedom and liberty. Freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of association. We need to uphold these principles so that the US doesn’t slowly slip into authoritarianism like most democracies tend to do over the long term.

        That’s exactly why I oppose this TikTok ban with every fiber of my being. If a citizen wants to communicate on a Chinese platform, he has every right to do so under our laws. He can make the executive decision for himself about the potential risks or benefits.

        That’s what it means to live in a free society. You are advocating for authoritarianism while you rail against authoritarianism. Reminds me of 1984. War is peace, right?

        • orgrinrt@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          He can make the executive decision for himself about the potential risks or benefits

          But should he? Is any one by themselves really capable? Note that I don’t really know what to think myself, purely asking.

      • raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Not everything that’s not a dictatorship is a democracy. You’re using a strawman to argue your point.

        A democracy stops when there is a severe imbalance in influence on legislation between voters and lobbyists / corporations / or voters depending on income / colour of skin.

        There’s also a quasi oligarchy with freedom of speech, that’s about where western Europe is at. In the US, by now, a large part of the population has been deprived of basic human rights, as shown in unpunished police brutality and murders, and vigilante killings of people for their beliefs, opinions or identity.

        Neither still qualifies for democracy. We would have to unite about two thirds of the voters behind a new party to even hope to change anything that matters (hello climate change), and that’s assuming that a hypothetical party that would actually act in the interest of restoring democratic mechanisms would be persecuted or otherwise hindered by authorities.

      • demonsword@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        the US has many problems but it’s still a democracy

        Given the choice between hot shit and cold shit still ends with you being covered in shit. Heads or tails between two very similar parties hardly counts as a true democracy.

        • Seasoned_Greetings@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          This is incredibly disingenuous. The US might not be a true democracy, but it’s not an authoritarian regime. Xi and putin disappear people who have an opinion on whether they should be forever-rulers.

          The fact that independent parties exist and hold seats at all three levels of government mean you are fundamentally wrong in saying there are only two choices.

          The US is a flawed democracy. That’s still better than an authoritarian regime.

          • banana_lama@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            Power in the US is held within an oligarchy and when they are threatened people get disappeared. There’s examples of that but one that’s being made an example of in broad daylight is Julian Assange

        • jaschen@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          While the US might be hot shit, it’s still our OWN shit. Keep your cold shit on your side of the pond.

          • istanbullu@lemmy.ml
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            5 months ago

            I’m not an American. By your logic, let’s ban all American social media.

              • pressanykeynow@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Just wondering why would you want to ban anything? Does banning something solve any problem that a normal person has? I mean if the ban wave is on it would be fair to ban anything that’s not open source but I do think censorship is cancer.

                • raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  I am not very comfortable with “banning” websites - let’s say outright dissolving some companies is probably the better approach, but also a double-edged sword. However, there is sometimes a need to legally shut down some entities.

                  I believe that by now it should no longer be a subject of debate that social media has a very unhealthy influence on the public opinion, and that most humans do not have the intellectual capacity to critically reflect on the media they consume. That’s already a problem with some TV programs, and it has gotten worse with social media monetizing anger. As a result we get people who vote for politicians who promise them nothing short of a dictatorship. That’s incredibly dangerous, and therefore I would like to see all social media federated - centralized services give way too much power to individuals with shady motives.

            • jaschen@lemm.ee
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              5 months ago

              TikTok is a psyops software disguised as a social media application. Facebook is bad for other reasons. But psysops are not one of them.

              • irreticent@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Facebook is bad for other reasons. But psysops are not one of them.

                You’ve obviously never heard of the Cambridge Analytica scandal. That meddled in our presidential election on behalf of a hostile foreign nation.

                There are also plenty of other examples of Facebook running psyop campaigns themselves on their own users. Your claim is demonstrably false.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        And What does that have to do with anything? We aren’t dealing with China, we’re dealing with a corporation.

        • Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          5 months ago

          The fact that the company that manages TikTok is insisting on maintaining the power structure that allows for influence by the CCP makes that claim incredibly suspicious.

        • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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          5 months ago

          According to former head engineer for US locations of TikTok, their services are centralized in China to the extent that it probably cannot even run off the US locations alone, and the Chinese owners ByteDance had complete access to everything on the platform including user data and if you believe security experts: your photo library, text message history, contacts list, and information of nearby wireless devices that you’ve so much as passed by. Also, they’re a military partner in China.

          That’s not a US Corporation in any way, shape, or form. That is espionage. The fact that they announced they won’t sell shows that they were never a business operating for profit, it was always about control.

          • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I’m sure you can link these security experts. Since that would be classed as malware and the industry standard is to write public reports on that stuff.

            And saying they aren’t like a US corporation because they do some military contracting is fucking hilarious.

            • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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              5 months ago

              Would it be classified as malware? I think people hand over permissions on their smartphone for most or all of those things on a daily basis without a second thought.

              The report on the vast extent of data obtained by TikTok was published by an Australian firm called “Internet 2.0” but it’s pay to view. Seems pretty substantial, though, since it hasn’t been debunked in the 2 years since it was published. It also scored the highest recorded score on Malcore, owned by Internet 2.0, with a 63.1.

              • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Lmao. They’re trying to sell a product. They admit on their blog that the reason their score is so high is the trackers. Which are all from other social media companies and an advertiser. Oh and they counted Google Crashlytics.

                TIL I learned good app maintenance is considered a red flag.

                • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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                  5 months ago

                  If they cared about money they wouldn’t be threatening to shut down rather than sell.

            • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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              5 months ago

              We were talking about what TikTok has to do with China, as you seemed to not know how, so you finding their direct obvious ties to China “fucking hilarious” is telling of your intentions.

              • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                No that’s ByteDance’s direct ties. TikTok would be indirect. My intention is to get to the bottom of this but it’s constantly just unsourced accusations and conflations. Not to mention excuse after excuse for why we can’t just pass an American GDPR. Instead we have to instigate Red Scare 2.0 which is totally not sus.

                • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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                  5 months ago

                  ByteDance is not just an indirect tie between TikTok and China, former employees have testified that the TikTok services are centralized in China. The offices in the USA operate like a shell company.

      • 31337@sh.itjust.works
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        5 months ago

        Doesn’t really matter unless you live under it. Instagram and Twitter or more dangerous to U.S. citizens.

        • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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          5 months ago

          They’re saying that the US is a democracy and the other country is an authoritarian regime. Can you guess which other country is involved with TikTok other than the USA? I’ll give you a hint: Hundred Acre Woods.

      • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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        5 months ago

        You got downvoted so much that I had to check if we were on ml or hexbear. Those CCP shills really operating in broad daylight on this post, they must have gotten board of the echo rooms filled with bots on their home instance.

        • orgrinrt@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I just have to stop by and voice that I do not appreciate your attitude. This is exactly the kind of toxicity I escaped reddit from.

            • orgrinrt@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              I don’t love CCP. But I also think hexbear et al. should be allowed to exist in peace in their own corner of our shared internet without me or anyone else having to be exposed to unnecessary and completely inconsequential hate warring and whatever else negative. Nobody needed to see or hear that, but you chose to go out of your way to just push shit on everyone’s feed.

            • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              If this were true, it wouldn’t matter that the US set up the social security number system, because Experian leaked millions of Americans’ SSNs.

              It obviously matters who owns a service that millions of citizens use from a country that is a political rival. You’re just hoping to shut down any conversation against TikTok with a whataboutism

              • DrDeadCrash@programming.dev
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                5 months ago

                We’re talking about individuals’ personal data stored by social media companies being accessible to others (governments, in this case). This has nothing to do with social security.

                The problem is that the data is accessable, but that’s not being addressed. This is an improper fix to an actual problem, just facts.

                • tborders
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                  5 months ago

                  When signing up for a tik-tok account, I put in a birth date, a username, an email address for verifcation and that was it. I didn’t need to provide a drivers license, verify that the name I put in was my actual name, that the birth date was my actual birth date. Location isn’t allowed nor was it requested and neither was Nearby devices. It’s actually been a much better behaved application than any American social media app.

            • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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              So Americans having access to American’s Data is bad but you think China having access to American’s Data is good?

                • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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                  Alright, thank you for clarifying that you want more restrictions and laws against these companies, it just seemed odd for you to bring up those other businesses in a post talking about the TikTok forced sale and resulting lawsuit.

                  I’m just happy about them restricting US Citizen data being brokered to adversarial nations including Iran, Russia, China, and others.

            • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              “if one authoritarian government does surveillance even across borders, why can’t all? Anything less than ‘i agree’ here is hypocrisy!”

              • PumpkinSkink@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Noone is saying that. The argument is pretty much that people want more scrutiny applied to other companies beyond tiktok, and ideally not be under constant surveillance by any of them, not that people want to be monitored by all police states equally.

                • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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                  It’s a whataboutist cop out. People who like tiktok just wanna point out how supposedly since tiktok was targeted, then it’s all in bad faith and therefore there could never possibly be a legit concern with tiktok in particular. Any argument to be addressed with “ChInA bAd”

          • dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de
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            5 months ago

            It doesn’t matter who owns it. It’s the data that the US government is accessing.

            I couldn’t give a shit about TikTok, I’ve never used it in my life. I just think the US should be open and say we are banning this as we don’t have control over it. Sure China is only doing what we are doing but fuck em. I’d respect that.

            Also, it’s got to be about silencing pro-Palestinian rhetoric too.

            If they ban TikTok they should ban FaceBook and Instagram too.

            • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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              Also, it’s got to be about silencing pro-Palestinian rhetoric too.

              Yeah trump was talking about banning it in 2020 because he used his time machine to find out what it would be used for in the future. After his harrowing story from the future, I agreed with the effort to ban it because I lOvE gEnOcIdE

              …of fucking course it matters who owns it

                • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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                  Whataboutism isn’t the elevated level of discourse you’re pretending it to be

                • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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                  You’re actually just mad you don’t have an actual response to the fact that you making the about Israel/Palestine makes zero sense

        • atrielienz@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I have a question for you. What is the difference between Google being banned in China and Tik Tok being banned in the US?

      • trolololol@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Can I ban NSA from spying on me? I’m not even on fReEeDoOoOoM land, I should be entitled to some amount of privacy

          • just another dev@lemmy.my-box.dev
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            5 months ago

            This is not whataboutism - it’s looking at the bigger picture. The point is that you should want to prevent all mass surveillance by social media companies. Not force them to sell so that the government can get its greedy paws on the data.

            • UnpluggedFridge@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              The government can already access the data with a warrant. The ownership of TikTok has literally 0 effect on the government’s ability to access user data. Not being owned by the Chinese government has a huge impact on China’s ability to access that data.

      • TimeSquirrel@kbin.social
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        5 months ago

        And if someone chooses to watch that, that’s their business. Not nanny government’s. Not saying I do. But none of us have any business telling someone else what they can and cannot watch. That’s part of living in a supposedly “free” country. We aren’t China. You want a “great firewall”, then move there.

        In our zeal to shun everything China-related, we must not become them.

        • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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          Yes I need my government to tell me obvious facts like foreign surveillance is bad. I’m just that stupid /s

      • Possibly linux@lemmy.zip
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        Which is any different than YouTube, Lemmy or anything else?

        I think people should have a right to shoot themselves in the foot if they choose.

        • ben@lemmy.zip
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          5 months ago

          The difference from the perspective of the US is that it’s spyware from a potentially malicious foreign state. China bans US tech companies as well, TikTok took advantage of the US having a much more open market and the state decided that they were acting in bad faith.

        • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I no longer opt into conversations with people who believe “China bad” is an argument winner

  • atx_aquarian@lemmy.world
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    What would give them standing? They’d have to be an entity protected by the constitution to claim that protection was harmed. Is it this (Wikipedia)?

    TikTok Ltd was incorporated in the Cayman Islands and is based in both Singapore and Los Angeles. source

    I guess I’ve never thought about what makes an entity have rights here. Buckingham Palace couldn’t just open shop here and start suing our government, right?

    • Simon Müller@sopuli.xyz
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      The case is essentially “hey you kinda passed a bill that’s against your own constitution? You’re kinda supposed to follow that…”

      • TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
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        Does the US constitution apply for rights of businesses, or is it just people?

        Not being snarky I actually don’t know

        • unphazed@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Corporations are people. Thanks to Citizens United. Though I’d gladly give up TikTok for the court to reverse this decision.

        • FrostKing@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Important rights of businesses in the US constitution include

          Important note regarding a business’s right to regulate free speech: The rules of the Constitution are meant to regulate Congress, not businesses or citizens. Therefore, the right to free speech means Congress cannot restrict someone from speaking his or her mind, but a business may be able to.

          For example, a radio show has the right to not allow a certain person to speak on its program or to say certain things. Ultimately, such issues are decided by the Supreme Court, and there may be some exceptions, depending on the circumstances.

    • riplin@lemm.ee
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      The constitution applies to the government, not the American (or other) people. “Government shall pass no law…”

    • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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      We decided a while ago that the Constitution protects everyone and every thing in the US because the loophole of declaring people and companies to not be protected was too dystopian even for conservatives at the time.

    • FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today
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      5 months ago

      Something important to note here is that there are various exceptions to freedom of speech protections from various time periods, one such exception is Incitement – If a person has the intention of inciting the violations of laws that is imminent and likely, while directing this incitement at a person or groups of persons, their speech will not be protected under the First Amendment. This test was created by the Supreme Court in Brandenburg v. Ohio.

      This is relevant because alongside the TikTok forced sale they also passed a law against sending sensitive data including personal details and photographs to adversarial nations including Russia, China, Iran, etc. That means that Incitement could be used to describe TikTok operating in any capacity without completely centralizing to the USA, and therefor they would have no protections by the first amendment.

  • Cyber Yuki@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    At this point, I’d like to ask: If a foreign company threatens democracy in a country, is it legal for the executive to ban business with that company?

    No? Then that doesn’t make sense. It’s a FOREIGN company, the government should have the right to do whatever it needs to protect its citizens in that regard.

    • UnpluggedFridge@lemmy.world
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      This is the real question. Is there a loophole that allows foreign governments to freely exercise mass surveillance and psyops if they allow US citizens to post on a blackboard outside their offices?