BERLIN: The European Union can no longer afford to keep national vetoes when deciding on European Union foreign and security policy if it wants to maintain a leading role in global politics, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said. Moscow's war in Ukraine makes unity in Europe ever more urgent and increases pre
You’re right, it’s not submitting to Germany, it’s submitting to an unelected bureaucracy that runs EU and does not represent the interests of the people of the member countries. This bureaucracy is subservient to US interests and is now driving EU off the clifft. Economic collapse in Europe will serve to boost US economy because there will be capital flight to US which is seen as more stable, and US will now get to sell commodities to Europe that used to be sourced from Russia.
Let me guess, you think China is democratic even tho it has a very pyramidal electoral system, hierarchical electoral system, where only local People’s Congresses are directly elected and everything after that (many layers) are elected pyramid-ally, through layers of representatives, with the added bonus it’s not only bottom->top votes there, but also top->bottom screening/vetoing.
In the EU people vote directly (in many countries by politician name/not lists) on their city level, county level, the province level, the state level, the country level, and also for the EU parliament, the EU level.
The thing that’s not quite as democratic and is bureaucratic is the European Commission (only one part of the EU “government”), the president of it is suggested by country leaders essentially, and is then voted/approved/reject by the EU Parliament, and then the Commission members themselves get suggested by the various respective countries’ ministers and then voted on by the EU Parliament. The rest of the EU “government” are the ministers of the various countries themselves (Council of the European Union). And honestly, as much a minister is indirectly appointed in literally any country, so is a member of the EU “government”, essentially.
Btw, the “head of state” of the EU is the European Council - the “heads of state/government” of the various countries.
The biggest problem is the Parliament can’t suggest legislature, only vote on it, but that’s in the process of being changed as we speak. Also, there’s also the Spitzenkandidat, whereby even the Commission president could be directly elected theoretically.
Read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_of_the_European_Union
I feel like, due to your dislike of unrestrained capitalism in North America, and the US attempted hegemony and imperialism (I say attempted because they haven’t really succeeded), which is understandable on its own and totally fine, you’re blinded into a state where you dislike anything “western” without any objectivity.
The problem isn’t with having many layers. Any complex organization will have layers. The problem is with accountability. The government in China consistently acts in the interest of its constituents because it depends on social stability to stay in power. The EU bureaucracy does not have this relationship with the people living in the countries that are part of the EU and the results speak for themselves here.
I don’t follow.
In China, the stability of central government is directly dependent on social and economic stability in China. In EU that’s not the case as far as I can see.
I don’t like replying in memes, because it feels a bit rude, but this is just: https://pics.me.me/you-can-tell-that-its-an-aspen-tree-because-of-2666368.png
:P
If you can’t see the difference in the outcomes between the governance in EU and China, I really don’t know what else to tell you. I guess that’s what happens when your world view can be summed up using memes.
Memes aside, your reasoning seems cyclic indeed. If you wanted to prove your point, you should explain how this is achieved in China, and compare that to EU.
Not sure what you’re claiming to be cyclical in my argument. I’ve explained that there is a fundamental difference in structure and accountability of the Chinese government and EU bureaucracy.
To expand on that, the structure of CPC is inherently bottom up, while EU is top down. CPC is also composed of regular working class people, and has huge membership. Conversely, EU bureaucracy is composed of capitalists with practically no working class representation. Finally, Chinese elections are a selection process based on demonstrated competence with people showing ability at lower levels competing for positions at higher level. This is not the case with EU where no demonstrated competence is required.
I hope that clarifies things for you.
That’s rather far fetched. The Parliament of EU is very much elected, and the whole organization employs rather sound democracy.
Would you prefer smaller legistlative bodies for some reason?
True, but the parliament has effectively zero power.
Please elaborate.
The parliament is not represent the interests of the people of any individual countries, nor is it accountable to them. It would obviously be preferable to have sovereign governments that act in the interests of their electorate and can be held accountable by their electorate. This is not the case with EU bureaucracy.
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “accountable”. They represent the voters, that is, the citizens of EU. Is the “country” somehow more important layer of organization than the individual?
Accountable means that the public has leverage over the officials and is able to get rid of them when they don’t act in their interest. The EU bureaucracy is very clearly not acting in the interests of the citizens of the EU which is pretty clear when you look at the current state of things in the eurozone. Individuals in the EU do not have any power over EU bureaucracy.
So it’s not enough “accountability” to vote differently in the next elections?
Of course not, but that’s the best that western parliamentary democracies offer. EU removes even this last vestige of accountability.
Okay, well how would your accountable democracy work then?
The way it functions in China, Vietnam, and Cuba where the government consistently works in the interest of the majority. Go read up on how political/economic systems work in these countries.
Most complaints about the lack of EU institutions’ democracy and high “bureaucracy-ness” is the exact opposite, that the people can’t directly vote on things like the Commission president and Commission members, and that the EU-wide parliament has limited powers. As is, they are basically chosen by the various countries’ politicians, hence the " bureaucracy-ness".
Whether the people vote directly or not is a tangential problem. The question is what fuels the decision making process in a particular bureaucracy. It seems pretty clear that EU is not acting in the interests of the people of Europe given how EU economy is doing, and how it’s likely to be doing going forward.
The only country that’s benefiting from all this is the US. EU is already starting to import commodities from US at a huge markup, and it will become further economically dependent on US going forward. We’ll see capital flight from EU to US, and mass austerity programs for the Europeans as a result of the economic shock. All of this will help buffer US economy directly at the expense of the people of Europe. As a long term benefit, EU has been cleaved away from the east which has been the main geopolitical concern for US.
Is it impossible that the people of the EU are okay with tanking the hit, for now, if it’s necessary in order to stand up to a bully, in their opinion, Putin’s Russia?
Nobody’s denying the US will profit of this, that’s tangential.
Who sent all that military equipment to Ukraine: the governments of Poland, Lithuania, Slovakia, France, Germany, etc… or the EU?
How is any of this an argument for the EU institutions’ democratic deficit, which is what we’ve been discussing here. The EU seems aligned with the wishes of most of the countries.
If you want to claim liberal democracies themselves are undemocratic, you’ll be moving the goal post then, because that’s not what you’ve been claiming so far.
And here, I’ll move it for you too. So, liberal democracies are just democracy for the capitalist bourgeoisie, more so than in China. If that’s true, why are they choosing to ruin their economy, they’re the first ones that want their businesses to do well, no, and for the economy to not stagnate? Are you claiming all of Europe’s capitalists are somehow directly bought out by US money, to the extent that it’s more so than what they lose by the economy going down? I don’t think that’s even mathematically possible.
Maybe it’s an economically bad move to support Ukraine’s fight, and it might end up having more instability as a consequence, but I’m pretty sure it was Europe’s wish, as much as it can be.
The people in EU were not informed on the effects of the policy EU is taking, and now that they’re finding that out they’re increasingly unhappy with the policy.
Far from being tangential, this is central to why the conflict was provoked.
All of western weapons stockpiles are being depleted at an alarming rate right now. Meanwhile, British military think tank found that the west lacks industrial capacity to produce weapons and ammunition at scale. What that means that the weapons sent to Ukraine cannot be easily replaced now making Europe much more vulnerable than before. Not sure how that’s in the interest of the people in Europe either.
What we’ve been discussing here is the economic war that EU got itself involved in and that’s destroying European economies at the moment.
I would absolutely say that, but that’s not central to the point I was making earlier.
Simple answer, it’s because bourgeoisie are international. They’re not the ones who are going to take the brunt of the damage from all this. The capital will move to other countries, largely to US, and then when European economy crashes these capitalists will buy everything up for pennies on the dollar. What we’ll see will be a huge wealth transfer to the top, which is precisely what happens during every economic crisis.
The financial economy has no inherent value to it, it’s tangible things like land, housing, factories, and so on that have value. When Europe crashes, people who anticipated the crash and weren’t directly harmed by it will see a huge boon.
Many people in Europe have certainly been manipulated into supporting this conflict without being told all the facts. Now they’re seeing the consequences, and that is already creating political blow back for the instigators.