I installed a few different distros, landed on Cinnamon Mint. I’m not a tech dummy, but I feel I’m in over my head.

I installed Docker in the terminal (two things I’m not familiar with) but I can’t find it anywhere. Googled some stuff, tried to run stuff, and… I dunno.

I’m TRYING to learn docker so I can set up audiobookshelf and Sonarr with Sabnzbd.

Once it’s installed in the terminal, how the hell do I find docker so I can start playing with it?

Is there a Linux for people who are deeply entrenched in how Windows works? I’m not above googling command lines that I can copy and paste but I’ve spent HOURS trying to figure this out and have gotten no where…

Thanks! Sorry if this is the wrong place for this

EDIT : holy moly. I posted this and went to bed. Didn’t quite realize the hornets nest I was going to kick. THANK YOU to everyone who has and is about to comment. It tells you how much traction I usually get because I usually answer every response on lemmy and the former. For this one I don’t think I’ll be able to do it.

I’ve got a few little ones so time to sit and work on this is tough (thus 5h last night after they were in bed) but I’m going to start picking at all your suggestions (and anyone else who contributes as well)

Thank you so much everyone! I think windows has taught me to be very visually reliant and yelling into the abyss that is the terminal is a whole different beast - but I’m willing to give it a go!

      • @[email protected]
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        -132 months ago

        A GUI isn’t going to help, mon capitaine. Start-stop is the easy part, OP will still need to create a docker-compose.yml and a systemd unit.

        The OP wants a LLM to walk him through the process and generate all of the relevant files. If they entered 2-3 prompts into gemini/chatgpt they wouldn’t have needed this thread.

  • @[email protected]
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    362 months ago

    Once it’s installed in the terminal, how the hell do I find docker so I can start playing with it?

    It’s not installed “in the terminal.” It’s installed on the computer; the terminal is just one way you might interact with it.

    In particular, docker is a type of program called a ‘daemon’ or ‘server’: it runs in the background and doesn’t have an interface, per se. You can run docker commands and get their output, and you can of course interact with the services you’re using docker to run, but there is no “docker app” that runs as a foreground interactive process (either GUI app or ncurses terminal app).

  • @[email protected]
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    332 months ago

    Once it’s installed in the terminal, how the hell do I find docker so I can start playing with it?

    Type docker in the terminal, it’s a CLI application.

    But it sounds like you might want to install Docker Desktop, which does give you a GUI to use.

  • @[email protected]
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    332 months ago

    To be fair, you’re taking on a lot of new things at once. You can spin up docker containers on windows too, all while using a UI. I think it’s great your exposing yourself to self hosting, linux, command line interface, and containerization all at once, but don’t beat yourself up for it taking longer than expected. A lot of it takes time. I encourage you to keep trying and playing. Good luck!

    • @[email protected]
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      2 months ago

      There is docker desktop on Linux too.

      sudo apt install docker flatpak -y
      # add flathub if not already there
      flatpak install docker
      

      Edit: please use Podman. And if you think about Virtualbox, please use Virt-manager instead. Both are RedHat products and they are pretty awesome. Podman is more secure and works well for your job, it is letter-for-letter compatible with docker. You can use podman-compose if you need) but that requires to run a daemon which is also possible.

      You can use Podman with many container sources natively, while docker only allows dockerhub. Says enough.

      • Possibly linux
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        42 months ago

        Not recommended as for one it is proprietary and two its more confusing to have tons of buttons than it is to write a docker compose.

        • @[email protected]
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          12 months ago

          I mean I would recommend them to use Podman. Docker on Linux Mint was a mess last time I used it.

          • Possibly linux
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            32 months ago

            Why?

            It seems like podman would be way harder as you need to configure systemd and manage containers yourself.

            With docker compose you apply it and docker creates the containers you need.

            • @[email protected]
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              12 months ago

              I dont know if you still need an external repo for docker, podman is in the system repo.

              When using Containers it works the same. Yes systemd stuff may be manual thats what Podman Desktop is probably for.

              Its more secure, more free and when learning it new anyways, why not the better tool?

              • Possibly linux
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                2 months ago

                Podman is not really a replacement for docker. It is its own separate thing and it has trade offs with docker.

                The reason I use podman on my local machine and for Jellyfin is that it is darn fast. It makes docker look like a emulator by comparison. With that being said the issue with podman is mostly permission related. However, it also has some instability in cases where a container malfunctions. This often is happens when you try to stop and start a container at the same time.

                Once that happens the runtime effectively locks up as the system is in a state that it doesn’t know how to handle.

                Some of the benefits of docker include its ability to recover from just about anything. If you need a container to always be available docker can do that. It also can do on the fly patching and self healing.

                Docker compose is very nice to have for larger software with multiple containers. I can write a docker compose that builds and deploys my nodejs applications with a database back end and it will just work without any issues. Deploy it and you are good.

                • @[email protected]
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                  22 months ago

                  Thanks for the info, I have little personal experience especially with compose.

                  How is podman compose after setting it up?

  • @[email protected]
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    292 months ago

    Keep in mind that you’re not just learning to use linux, but also learning to use docker,and docker is a complex tool by itself, which makes your journey significantly harder.

    I never user Sabnzbd so I wouldn’t be of much help. However, you could post some of the problems you find, so that other people lay help you.

  • @[email protected]
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    282 months ago

    Docker is one of the container technologies

    Containers vs Images

    This is a very simplified explanation, which hopefully clears up for you. As with all simplifications, they aren’t entirely correct.

    Containers put processes, files, and networking into a space where they are secluded from the rest. You main OS is called the host and the container is called the guest. You can selectively share resources with the guest. To use an analogy, if you house were the computer with linux, if you took a room, put tools and resources for those tools into it, put workers into it, got them to start working and locked the door, they’d be contained in the room, unable to break out. If you want to give workers access to resources, you either a window, a corridor, or even a door depending on much access you want to give them.

    Containers are created from an image. Think of it as the tools, resources, and configuration required every time you create a room in your house for workers to do a job. The woodworkers will need different tools and resources than say metalworkers.

    Most images are stored on DockerHub. So when you do docker pull linuxserver/sonarr you download the image. When you do docker run linuxserver/sonarr you create a container from an image.

    Installation

    You’re on Cinnamon Mint which is linux distribution derived from another linux distribution called debian. You have to follow the installation instructions. Everything is there. If something doesn’t work, it’s most likely because you skipped a step. The most important ones are the post-installation steps:

    • Adding your user to the docker group
    • Logging out and back in (or simply restarting)

    Those are the most commonly missed steps. I’ve fallen for this trap too!

    Local help

    To use linux, you need to learn about ways to help yourself or find help. On linux, most well-written programs print a help. Simply running the command without any arguments most often output a help text --> running docker does so. If they don’t, then the --help flag often does --> docker --help. The shorthand is -h --> docker -h.

    Some commands have sub commands e.g docker run, docker image, docker ps, … . Those subcommands also take flags of which -h and --help are available.

    The help output is often not extensive and programs often have a manual. To access it the command is man --> man find will output the manual for the find command. Docker doesn’t have a local manual but an online one.

    For clarification when running a command there are different ways to interpret the text after the command:

    Flags/Options

    These are named parameters to the command. Some do not take input like -h and --help which are called flags. Some do like --file /etc/passwd and are often called options.

    Arguments

    These are unnamed parameters and each command interprets them differently. echo "hello world" --> echo is the command and "hello world" is the argument. Some commands can take multiple arguments

    Running containers

    Imperatively

    As described above docker run linuxserver/sonarr runs an image in a container. However, it runs in the foreground (as opposed to the background in what is most often called a “daemon”). Starting in the foreground is most likely not how you want to run things as that means if you close your terminal, you end the process too. To run something in the background, you use docker run --detatch linuxserver/sonarr.

    You can pass options like -v or --volume to make a file or folder from your host system available in the guest e.g -v /path/on/host:/tmp/path/in/guest. Or -p / --port to forward a host port to a guest port e.g -p 8080:80. That means if you access port 8080 on your host, the traffic will be forwarded to port 80 in the guest.

    These are imperatives as in you command the computer to do a specific action. Run that docker image, stop that docker container, restart these containers, start a container with this port forward and that volume with this user …

    Declaratively

    If you don’t want to keep typing the same commands, you can declare everything about your containers up front. Their volumes, ports, environment variables, which image is used, which network card/interface they have access to, which other network they share with other containers, and so on.

    This is done with docker-compose or docker compose for newer docker versions (not all operating systems have the new docker version).

    This already a long text, so if you want to know more, the best resource is the docker compose manual and the compose file reference.


    Hopefully this helped with the basics and understanding what you’re doing. There are probably great video resources out there that explain it more didactically than I do with steps you can follow along.

    Good luck!

    CC BY-NC-SA 4.0

    • Arthur BesseM
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      22 months ago

      You main OS is called the host and the container is called the guest

      The word “guest” is generally used for virtual machines, not containers.

      • yianiris
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        22 months ago

        Can containers boot on their own? Then they are hosts, if not they are guests.
        Unless there is some kind of mutual 50/50 cohabitation of userspace with two different pid1s
        pid 1 left pid 1 right

        @cypherpunks @onlinepersona

        • Arthur BesseM
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          Can containers boot on their own? Then they are hosts, if not they are guests.

          It depends what you mean by “boot”. Linux containers are by definition not running their own kernel, so Linux is never booting. They typically (though not always) have their own namespace for process IDs (among other things) and in some cases process ID 1 inside the container is actually another systemd (or another init system).

          However, more often PID 1 is actually just the application being run in the container. In either case, people do sometimes refer to starting a container as “booting” it; I think this makes the most sense when PID 1 in the container is systemd as the word “boot” has more relevance in that scenario. However, even in that case, nobody (or at least almost nobody I’ve ever seen) calls containers “guests”.

          As to calling containers “hosts”, I’d say it depends on if the container is in its own network namespace. For example, if you run podman run --rm -it --network host debian:bookworm bash you will have a container that is in the same network namespace as your host system, and it will thus have the same hostname. But if you omit --network host from that command then it will be in its own network namespace, with a different IP address, behind NAT, and it will have a randomly generated hostname. I think it makes sense to refer to the latter kind of container as a separate host in some contexts.

  • ugh
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    232 months ago

    I’m also pretty new to Linux, but I’ve finally gotten a bit of a grasp on it. I started learning Linux to set up a home server, so I also jumped straight into Docker. You have gotten some thorough replies, but I thought I’d share my chaotic journey with it that has ended in a decent ratio of success vs confusion. Note: I have used Ubuntu from the start.

    Don’t use docker desktop. It’s garbage. Also, don’t use the Snap image.

    $sudo apt install docker.io

    $sudo apt install docker-compose

    Those are both cli “programs”. They aren’t apps like you have on Windows. It seems VERY intimidating to talk into the void of the terminal, but you’ll build confidence. Docker commands work like any other commands, all in the same place.

    Now install Portainer CE. The instructions are very simple to follow. You can reach Portainer through your browser at the localhost address it gives you, which you type directly into the URL bar. I think it’s http://localhost:9000.

    Portainer will give you an easy visual way to manage Docker. You can perform many tasks through Portainer instead of using the command line. Honestly, I’m pretty sure you could do everything on Portainer and not even touch the terminal. I don’t suggest that because you will have to have at least a basic understanding of how Linux and Docker work. You will be confused, and you will feel crazy. Eventually, you’ll get more comfortable living in that psychosis.

    On to Docker Compose!! This is my preferred way to run containers. I have a designated folder in /opt that I use for my compose files. This way, I know exactly how I set up my programs. My memory is awful and I tweak things so often that I’ll completely forget how I have even gotten to this point or where ANY of my files are. It’s pretty easy to find docker compose files online that you can copy and paste and it instantly works!

    To make it simple, after I have saved my docker-compose.yaml file in the designated folder, I right click on the empty area and choose “open in terminal”.

    $sudo docker-compose up -d

    The -d instructs the program to continue to run, even if you exit out of the terminal. At this point, your container will also show up in portainer!

    I think that covers the basics. My biggest tip is to keep a notepad handy to write down commands that you have to search for. Your bookmarks will fill up very quickly otherwise. Expect to get stuck sometimes. Expect to spend hours trying to troubleshoot an issue, then have it suddenly work with no idea what you actually did to fix it. Accept the win and never touch it again.

    I have done fresh installs many times. Some because I’ve played with 10 different programs that I decided against and want the leftover files gone, some because I wanted to try different mixes of distros, and once because I legitimately broke the OS.

    Keep your important stuff on an external drive to avoid any loss and don’t be afraid to mess around with it!

    Btw, I’m a huge KDE plasma fan. It’s lighter than GNOME, but very user friendly. I’ve settled on Kubuntu as my distro of choice.

    • lemmyvore
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      72 months ago

      Don’t use docker-compose anymore, it’s been obsolete for a while now and won’t be getting new features.

      It’s best to add the docker official repo and install docker and docker-compose-plugin from there.

      The -plugin version acts as a docker subcommand (docker compose) and will be updated alongside docker going forward.

      • ugh
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        12 months ago

        Thank you! I’ll look into that

    • @[email protected]
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      52 months ago

      Well said. I’ve been using Linux for 15 years and using Docker for 6 years. I couldn’t have communicated as well as you did. You have a knack for teaching.

  • @[email protected]
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    192 months ago

    Docker is professional software and because of that isn’t always the most intuitive thing to use.

    The first big thing to get your head around is that there is no GUI. Everything you do to manage docker is through the command line. If you really want to, there’s some third party GUI software for managing Docker, but I haven’t used it in the 2 years I’ve been using Docker.

    Once you’ve installed docker, there’s a little bit of setup required to make it run smoothly. The Docker Docs page on Linux post-installation steps has detailed instructions on how to do that and how to run a test container

  • QantumEntangled
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    172 months ago

    There’s not a fantastic GUI for managing docker. There are a few like dockge (my favorite) or Portainer.

    I recommend spending some time learning docker run with exposed ports, bind volumes (map local folders from your drive to folders inside the container so you can access your files, configs, content, etc. Also so you don’t lose it when you delete the container and pull a newer version).

    Once you’ve done that, check out the spec page for docker-compose.yaml. This is what you’ll eventually want to use to run your apps. It’s a single file that describes all the configuration and details required for multiple docker containers to run in the same environment. ie: postgres version 4.2 with a volume and 1 exposed port, nginx latest version with 2 volumes, 4 mapped ports, a hostname, restart unless-stopped, and running as user 1000:1000, etc.

    I’ve been using docker for home a LIGHT business applications for 8 years now and docker-compose.yaml is really all you need until you start wanting high availability and cloud orchestration.

    Some quick tips though.

    • Search some-FOSS-app-name docker-compose read through a dozen or so templates. Check the spec page to see what most of the terms mean. It’s the best way to learn how to structure your own compose files later.
    • Use other people’s compose.yaml files as templates to start from. Expect to change a few things for your own setup.
    • NEVER use restart: always. Never. Change it to restart: unless-stopped. Nothing is more annoying than stopping an app and having it keep doom spiraling. Especially at boot.
    • Take a minute to set the docker daemon or service to run at boot. It takes 1 google and 30 seconds, but it’ll save you when you drunkenly decide to update your host OS right before bed.
    • Use mapped folders for everything. If you map /srv/dumb-app/data:/data then anything that container saves to the /data folder is accessible to you on your host machine (with whatever user:group is running inside the container, so check that). If you use the docker volumes like EVERYONE seems to like doing, it’s a pain to ever get that data back out if you want to use it outside of docker.
  • @[email protected]
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    162 months ago

    I can at least assure you that as a developer, docker is annoying to set up and their documentation is confusing.

    Most things in Linux are easier to set up but sometimes installing things happens to be harder than it should be and docker is one of them.

    You should keep in mind that compared to other OSs, a lot of Linux software is CLI only, so they won’t always show up in the applications list and you’ll need to check if you have it in a terminal.

  • @[email protected]
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    142 months ago

    Linux is a slightly different way of thinking. There are any number of ways that you can solve any problem you have. In Windows there are usually only one or two that work. This is largely a result of the hacker mentality from which linux and Unix came from. “If you don’t like how it works, rewrite it your way” and “Read the F***ing Manual” were frequent refrains when I started playing with linux.

    Mint is a fine distro which is based off of Ubuntu, if I remember correctly. Most documentation that applies to Ubuntu will also apply to you.

    Not sure what exactly you installed, but I’m guessing that you did something along the lines of sudo apt-get install docker.

    If you did that without doing anything ahead of time, what you probably got was a slightly out of date version of docker only from Mint’s repositories. Follow the instructions here to uninstall whatever you installed and install docker from docker’s own repositories.

    The Docker Desktop that you may be used to from Windows is available for linux, however it is not part of the default install usually. You might look at this documentation.

    I don’t use it, as I prefer ctop combined with docker-compose.

    Towards that end, here is my docker-compose.yaml for my instance of Audiobookshelf. I have it connected to my Tailscale tailnet, but if you comment out the tailscale service stuff and uncomment the port section in the audiobookshelf service, you can run it directly. Assuming your not making any changes,

    Create a directory somewhere,

    mkdir ~/docker

    mkdir ~/docker/audiobookshelf

    This creates a directory in your home directory called docker and then a directory within that one called audiobookshelf. Now we want to enter that directory.

    cd ~/docker/audiobookshelf

    Then create your docker compose file

    touch docker-compose.yaml

    You can edit this file with whatever text editor you like, but I prefer micro which you may not have installed.

    micro docker-compose.yaml

    and then paste the contents into the file and change whatever setting you need to for your system. At a minimum you will need to change the volumes section so that the podcast and audiobook paths point to the correct location on your system. it follows the format <system path>:<container path>.

    Once you’ve made all the needed changes, save and exit the editor and start the the instance by typing

    sudo docker compose up -d

    Now, add the service directly to your tailnet by opening a shell in the tailscale container

    sudo docker exec -it audiobookshelf-tailscale /bin/sh

    and then typing

    tailscale up

    copy the link it gives you into your browser to authenticate the instance. Assuming that neither you or I made any typos you should now be able to access audiobookshelf from http://books If you chose to comment out all the tailscale stuff you would find it at http://localhost:13378

    docker-compose.yaml

    version: "3.7"
    services:
      tailscale:
        container_name: audiobookshelf-tailscale
        hostname: books                         # This will become the tailscale device name
        image: ghcr.io/tailscale/tailscale:latest
        volumes:
          - "./tailscale_var_lib:/var/lib"        # State data will be stored in this directory
          - "/dev/net/tun:/dev/net/tun"           # Required for tailscale to work
        cap_add:                                    # Required for tailscale to work
          - net_admin
          - sys_module
        command: tailscaled
        restart: unless-stopped
      audiobookshelf:
        container_name: audiobookshelf
        image: ghcr.io/advplyr/audiobookshelf:latest
        restart: unless-stopped
    #    ports:                                                                  # Not needed due to tailscale
    #      - 13378:80                                                                                                     
        volumes:
          - '/mnt/nas/old_media_server/media/books/Audio Books:/audiobooks'       # This line has quotes because there is a space that needed to be escaped.
          - /mnt/nas/old_media_server/media/podcasts:/podcasts                               # See, no quotes needed here, better to have them though.
          - /opt/audiobookshelf/config:/config                                       # I store my docker services in the /opt directory. You may want to change this to './config' and './metadata' while your playing around
          - /opt/audiobookshelf/metadata:/metadata
        network_mode: service:tailscale                                  # This line tells the audiobookshelf container to send all traffic to tailscale container
    

    I’ve left my docker-compose file as-is so you can see how it works in my setup.

      • Para_lyzed
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        132 months ago

        This is a discussion about Docker, which is a complex terminal-based containerization system. This is not a program that is typically used by the average user. Docker’s complexity does not imply that Linux requires this kind of set up to use as a normal desktop. This is usually server software. Docker is also available on Windows and MacOS, and is partnered with Microsoft (you know, the company that makes Windows? The desktop OS with the highest market share?). Are you going to complain about how Windows will never reach mass adoption because users are able to install complex tools that require a steep learning curve to use? You can install Docker on Windows and use the same commands and configs, so do you believe that Windows suffers this same problem?

        Before you point out the start of that comment with the “Linux mentality” stuff, while some of that is certainly true, you can now do everything an average user needs to do in an intuitive GUI, just like Windows (better in many cases, actually). Half the listed commands (making directories and files) can be done in the file manager just like Windows, normal apps can be managed in app stores, and the rest of it is docker specific, which is (again), server-oriented software. I’m not a fan of their mentality about how things work in Linux, because it’s very much an old mentality that doesn’t account for the immense amount of change that has happened in the past decade to make Linux more accessible.

        I don’t understand why people come to the Linux communities to complain that Linux is “too hard” or “too complex” to be usable. If you don’t have an actual interest in Linux, find another community. If you want a simple experience, use a simple distro that’s meant to be easy to use, and use software that is easy to use.

      • velox_vulnus
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        Docker is not your average GUI text editor or video player. It is supposed to be a TUI-first container app, similar to Podman, Incus, etc. The GUI applet is something you can add for your convenience.

        A container is somewhere between running on bare metal vs virtual machine, in the sense that it is an ephemeral, isolated system, running on the same kernel with minimal overhead.

        Docker for Windows runs the whole Linux kernel in VM. Basically, now you’re running a container inside a VM. That’s a lot of overhead, if you understand what that means. And btw, the desktop app for Windows is available on Linux. It’s just that you don’t really need it.

      • @[email protected]
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        82 months ago

        Getting this setup on Windows would be even harder because it would involve installing docker manually or setting up WSL and following these steps. What OP is trying to do is a complex thing that most people don’t need, that would be the same as saying Windows is hard because setting up a VM with hardware passthrough is difficult on Windows, completely missing the point that that is a complex thing to do and that it’s complex on any other OS as well.

        • @[email protected]
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          -52 months ago

          Yeah but the difference is that even for simple things, Linux instructions look like what was posted by the person I replied to.

          • @[email protected]
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            Being a person who replies to lots of new users questions I strongly disagree. 99% of the questions come from a Windows mindset, so it requires some deconstruction of the way the person is thinking, have you noticed how very few Mac users ask beginner questions on Linux forums?

            There’s a big difference between something is different and someone is used to doing the things differently, driving on the left or right is just as difficult, bit if you’ve driven all of your life one way switching up can be difficult. Just like that a lot of Linux concepts are different from what people are used to if they come from a Windows background, but the same is true the other way around. As someone who’s been using Linux for decades I find windows weird and convoluted, but I know that this is just my perception, and that someone who’s using it daily is used to that.

            Edit: if you’re going to reply to this, mind providing an example of something you think is easy on Windows but hard on Linux?

            • Para_lyzed
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              12 months ago

              Just to be clear, I agree with you practically 100%, and you can see my response to this person in the same thread as well, but I’m going to play devil’s advocate here. I’ll give you a few examples of things that are easier on Windows (and most also are easier on MacOS) than they are on Linux (or at least some distros depending on which you pick):

              • Using proprietary multimedia codecs (Fedora)
              • Installing Nvidia drivers that have the capability of auto-updating (any distro that doesn’t have a GUI for driver downloads)
              • Installation (most people simply use the pre-installed OS and never reinstall or install anything new)
              • Game compatibility (Linux gaming is great, but there are still major titles not supported)
              • Accessing firmware settings and profiles for laptops while booted (like Armoury Crate for Asus laptops (yes, I know about rog-control-center and asusctl, but those don’t work for all devices, and are harder to set up))

              There are probably plenty more, and there are things that are easier on Linux. But again, I’m just playing devil’s advocate here. Each of those examples are less intuitive to complete on Linux (or at least some distros) than they are in Windows. As someone who has been using Linux for a decade, I don’t think that they are all hard, but many are also less intuitive in Linux than MacOS, just to address your first point. When you have to start adding PPAs/repos to get specific things, I’d argue that’s objectively less intuitive than the alternatives in other operating systems, and not merely a different way of thinking. In many cases though, for most things, there are intuitive solutions that exist in Linux. There are plenty of cases where someone overcomplicates something they want to do in Linux by using a Windows mindset, so I still agree with you there. I just think it’s a little more nuanced than you seemed to imply.

              • @[email protected]
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                12 months ago

                I had written a more thorough response, but the app crashed and I lost it. Sorry of this one sounds a bit harsh, I do mostly agree with you, I just think that the examples you’ve chosen are bad because they’re either distro specific (so not a Linux problem but a problem with that distro), or not Linux problems (i.e. there’s nothing Linux can do about it because the problem doesn’t lie on Linux but elsewhere)

                Using proprietary multimedia codecs (Fedora)

                Distro specific. It should be just like installing anything else, and it is for some distros, certainty for the ones I’ve been using.

                Installing Nvidia drivers that have the capability of auto-updating (any distro that doesn’t have a GUI for driver downloads)

                Distro specific, I’ve had NVIDIA drivers auto-updating for the past 15 years or so, long before Windows had that same capabilities. And it updates with my regular system update, no need to use any special GUI for it.

                Installation (most people simply use the pre-installed OS and never reinstall or install anything new)

                Not Linux problem. Also, while I can see the argument that’s easier to use what’s already installed, that tells you nothing of how easy one thing is in comparison to the other. If computers came with the most convolutedly complex and unusable crap of an OS, full of bloatware and spyware pre-installed people would still use it. Not to mention that the Linux installation process was much easier than Windows for the longest time (until windows finally implemented automatic driver installation)

                Game compatibility (Linux gaming is great, but there are still major titles not supported)

                Not Linux problem. Although this is something to bear in mind while choosing your OS, it’s the companies that make games that are at fault here, there’s nothing Linux can do to remedy this situation, so it’s unfair to judge it for it. That’s like saying Windows is harder to use because running docker containers in it is impossible without some virtualisation, while this is something to consider when deciding what OS will you use to self-host, it’s not per-se a reason why Windows is more difficult to use.

                Accessing firmware settings and profiles for laptops while booted (like Armoury Crate for Asus laptops (yes, I know about rog-control-center and asusctl, but those don’t work for all devices, and are harder to set up))

                Same as above.

                Like I said, I agree with lots of what you said, and some of those are thing to keep in mind when choosing an OS, but those are not good arguments as for which OS is simpler than the other. The Linux way to do most of them is using the package manager, and that’s much simpler than searching the internet for the correct download.

                • Para_lyzed
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                  2 months ago

                  I do agree with you that these problems are not the fault of Linux, but I never meant to imply that they were. The average PC user has absolutely zero care for where the fault is, the only thing that matters to them as an end user is their experience while using the operating system. Users who actually care about the quality and ethics of the software they use are likely to already be using Linux anyway, but that is very much not the norm. The layperson is perfectly happy to never care or understand a single thing about their operating system. I will be answering your response to each of my points, as well as rebuttals for this:

                  The Linux way to do most of them is using the package manager, and that’s much simpler than searching the internet for the correct download.

                  in the following:

                  Distro specific. It should be just like installing anything else, and it is for some distros, certainty for the ones I’ve been using.

                  They are pre-installed in Windows. In fact, most people won’t even understand why their media isn’t playing, and won’t even know that they need to install something, or how to install it. Some distros have them pre-installed, but there are plenty that do not. The point here is that it is inherently less intuitive and more difficult in Linux than in Windows.

                  This doesn’t require installing anything in Windows. This is purely easier in Windows for many distributions, and equal at best for those who have them installed by default. Thus using the package manager is not easier or more intuitive in this sense, especially since the packages have strange names (so you’d have to look up how to do it as a new user).

                  Distro specific, I’ve had NVIDIA drivers auto-updating for the past 15 years or so, long before Windows had that same capabilities. And it updates with my regular system update, no need to use any special GUI for it.

                  Nvidia’s driver software comes pre-installed in a lot of pre-built systems nowadays. It has automatic update checking so it will prompt you on boot to ask if you want to update. Even if it didn’t come pre-installed (which is also the case with most Linux distros), Windows users don’t have to look up a tutorial on how to download and install the drivers. In Linux, the package names and installation methods vary so greatly between distros, that I still have to look it up every time I set up a new distro, even with a decade of Linux experience. In either case, the user will need to use the Internet to search for a page (either the Nvidia driver site, or a tutorial for how to do it on their distro). And no, I’m not talking about Nouveau here, it still has lots of issues and delivers much worse performance than the proprietary driver. Sure, using an AMD card is easier, but the current market share suggests most people will be coming over with Nvidia hardware.

                  When all the first results are the Nvidia website with official driver downloads, and don’t require the user to use the terminal (and make sure the tutorial works for their distro), Windows is easier there. You just download an executable and run it. No need to add non-free repositories to your package manager, no need to use the terminal, just a search, 4 clicks, and you’re done. Yes, it’s a very “Windows way to do things”, but it’s also objectively easier than it is in a variety of Linux distros. A select few distros have a GUI way to manage this, which I’d rate as slightly easier than the manual Windows way, but still more difficult than the “this is already installed on my system” way that’s the case for many pre-builts and laptops.

                  Not Linux problem. Also, while I can see the argument that’s easier to use what’s already installed, that tells you nothing of how easy one thing is in comparison to the other. If computers came with the most convolutedly complex and unusable crap of an OS, full of bloatware and spyware pre-installed people would still use it. Not to mention that the Linux installation process was much easier than Windows for the longest time (until windows finally implemented automatic driver installation)

                  You seem to have answered this for me. People will use what is pre-installed on their system because it is easier for them to do so. Again, not the fault of Linux, but it adds a layer of difficulty to those who want to switch. The layperson doesn’t know what an ISO image is, or how to make a liveUSB out of one.

                  This has nothing to do with using a package manager or the “Linux way to do things”.

                  Not Linux problem. Although this is something to bear in mind while choosing your OS, it’s the companies that make games that are at fault here, there’s nothing Linux can do to remedy this situation, so it’s unfair to judge it for it. That’s like saying Windows is harder to use because running docker containers in it is impossible without some virtualisation, while this is something to consider when deciding what OS will you use to self-host, it’s not per-se a reason why Windows is more difficult to use.

                  Most end users will not care whose fault it is. The fact of the matter is that it will dissuade a large portion of gamers away from Linux, as Riot games don’t run at all. It’s much more difficult to convince someone that they should switch to another operating system when the games they play or programs they use (like Adobe software) won’t work. Sure, in many cases there are alternatives, but that’s a massive layer of difficulty, especially if you’re expecting people to learn new, alternative software with equally steep or steeper learning curves than the Adobe suite, or give up games they’ve been playing for years.

                  Again, nothing to do with a package manager or the “Linux way to do things”.

                  Same as above.

                  Again, the end user doesn’t care whose fault it is. If they can’t access the features their laptop or PC came with (like the ability to use their discrete GPU), then that’s going to be a hard sell. And even if they can by installing something like rog-control-center, that is still another layer of difficulty.

                  If there is a solution available for a specific computer, it is inherently more difficult on Linux. The computer will come pre-installed with the correct software (no download necessary), and even if you were to reinstall, all you have to do is download a single executable and run it. On Linux, however, you have to research and figure out what kind of software would even do this (asusctl or rog-control-center, for instance), then you have to check the model number of your laptop or motherboard for compatibility because only a select few will be compatible, then you have to add a PPA/repo to your package manager (if the solution even has that available; some will require you to build from source and/or update manually every update), and only then can you install the package. Far more steps, far less intuitive, and far more difficult for an average user.

                  I gave you examples of things that are more difficult in Linux than Windows. None of these things have to do with a difference in perspective on how to install software, or an investment in the “Windows way” to do things. I’ve been using Linux for around a decade, and I’ve had recent experience with each of these things in Windows while helping other people. They are simply easier in Windows. I want to again make it clear that I never said any of these were the fault of Linux, but you can’t merely overlook them simply because Linux isn’t at fault. New users would still want/have to do these things, and doing them can be difficult or impossible depending on compatibility. There are plenty of arguments for Linux, but the argument that it is simpler or easier in any overarching sense is not one of them. There are very specific instances where things are easier in Linux, or the experience of a user is simpler in Linux, but those few cases do not encompass the entirety of Linux. You have said yourself that you have not used Windows recently, and that seems very apparent to me. I dislike Windows, but Linux has not gotten anywhere near a point where one of my recommendations for switching to Linux are that it is easier or simpler.

                  I agree that the package manager is a much better solution than the Windows way of doing things, but it has nothing to do with most of the points I made.

                • yianiris
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                  -12 months ago

                  The greatest contribution of Nvidia to FOSS had been to keep many such thinking people hostage to proprietary solutions and out of our visibility.

                  You know, those that refuse to learn anything new, refuse to read documents, believe that by controlling input/output through terminal is inferior to gui-blindness.

                  @Nibodhika @Para_lyzed

      • @[email protected]
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        62 months ago

        It’s not as difficult as the length of my comment implies, and doing it in the terminal simplifies the explanation quite a bit.

        The average user though might never need to use the terminal. Most of what they want can be done in the browser.

        As for Linux mass adoption, that happened years ago. Just nobody noticed. Android, Chromebook, Steam Deck are all Linux based and MacOS (BSD derived) is a close relative. And Microsoft has even made it possible to run linux command line programs in Windows, with some caveats, using WSL. And that’s not counting the majority of servers, networking gear and space craft running linux or unix.

        • @[email protected]
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          -52 months ago

          “They’re all close relatives”

          on which the experience has been tuned to make them as user friendly as possible to the point where they have nothing in common with desktop Linux from an average user perspective.

      • @[email protected]
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        2 months ago

        Because Docker, a complex program most users will never use, has a long install process?

        If I posted the long setup instructions for it on Windows, would you tell me Windows mass adoption is never coming?

  • Corgana
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    142 months ago

    Is there a Linux for people who are deeply entrenched in how Windows works?

    Zorin is this, though your choice of Mint is good too. It will not help you understand docker though.

    If you’re trying to do Audibookshelf on a home server CasaOS made docker super easy for me.

  • @[email protected]
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    132 months ago

    Apt install docker.io

    docker run -d -p 8000:8000 -p 9443:9443 --name portainer --restart=always -v /var/run/docker.sock:/var/run/docker.sock -v portainer_data:/data portainer/portainer-ce:latest

    Go to IP:8000 and now you can build docker compose stacks. A far easier way to learn docker.

    • @[email protected]
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      92 months ago

      OP this is the answer but Ill provide simple steps in case this is not clear enough:

      1. Install docker
      2. Install docker-compose
      3. Install portainer (command from the post above)
      4. open Portainer GUI in browser using IP:8000 (from here you can do everything in GUI)
      5. go to stacks and create a new stack
      6. edit docker-compose for audiobookshelf - modify folder paths for volumes (example - change ./audiobooks:/audiobooks to /path/to/folder:/audiobooks)
      7. paste that in stack and hit deploy
      8. go to IP:13378 to open Audiobookshelf GUI
      9. enjoy
    • @[email protected]
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      22 months ago

      one of my portainer instances completely broke a few months ago because of a failed db migration after an update. i’ve been using dockge ever since and i’m happy with it. it stores every stack you deploy as a docker-compose file on your regular filesystem, so if it ever breaks you can just edit the files instead

      • @[email protected]
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        22 months ago

        Oh that is nice. Yeah I tend not to use portainer nowadays but when I was learning docker it was a godsend. I’ll look into dockge though :)

      • @[email protected]
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        12 months ago

        I never tried dockage, but portainer also stores all docker-compose on filesystem (probably at var/lib/docker/volumes/portainer_data/_data/compose). You can also use “backup” button in GUI to download everything in single tar.gz archive. Folder structure is not the best, but its not hard to figure out. I’m not saying portainer is better though

  • Goku
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    122 months ago

    I remember being so lost in the dark when starting docker. There’s 2 main approaches to launching docker containers. One is with CLI arguments and one is from a docker-compose.yml file.

    I highly recommend the latter.

    Try going to chatGPT and ask it to write a docker compose file for whatever service you’re trying to stand up.

    • lemmyvore
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      112 months ago

      There’s no point in asking ChatGPT for a generic compose, most docker images will recommend a compose that’s specifically written for them.

    • @[email protected]
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      22 months ago

      It is a much better way to run volatile server apps that are changing at breakneck speed.