I’m a bit emotional right now. But in the bad way to be fair.
I just got stung by a wasp without any reason, after having to take a extensive shower before because my body was totally itchy from all the mites and whatnot. UGH! 😫
I’ve been pretty proud in the beginning of this experiment, because there were lots of wild bees, beetles and other cool critters around here. It’s basically like being in nature.
But I forgot that nature sucks… 🥲
For example, imagine laying in the grass and just chilling.
Beautiful for the first 5 seconds, but then, you begin getting stung in the asscreek by a dozen ants and get everything ruined.
Nature is basically dead in my area, so only the asshole bugs survive here.
The whole balcony is swarmed by aphids/ mites as well as ant colonies that protect those suckers from ladybugs and other beneficial predatory insects.
The aphids droop honeydew everywhere, which attracts lots of yellow jacket wasps, which in return could kill my girlfriend in minutes because she’s highly allergic.
I didn’t even realise that asshole (the wasp, lol) is there until I got stung just by existing.
I’m right about to pull the trigger and get my pesticides (neem oil/ pyrethrum extract) out.
Also, I began to hate soil even more than before.
I have to hunt for slugs every evening, because they’re everywhere, and I can barely stand a chance against them.
There are gnats living in it too, as well as other unwanted guests.
The plants in soil are starting to spread diseases and pests to my otherwise healthy plants in hydroponics. I will for example harvest my weed soon, and there are bugs sticking in the buds like in a glue trap. I have no idea how I should get them out of them, it’s just disgusting.
I also largely prefer hydro compared to soil, not only because there are less pests, but also because due to the much lower water demand and control it gives me.
The soil is guzzling water like crazy and still the plants are looking way less healthy.
Spraying neem oil on my hydro plants and just not using soil anymore seems to be the way better choice right now.
Sorry for the rant. It had to be.
What should I do?
The top photo’s wasp comes off as a yellow jacket to me. They are notoriously aggressive compared to milder species like mud daubers and paper wasps. So if that’s the look of the waso that stung ya, I’m completely unsurprised.
For reference we tend to get quite a few paper wasps in our garden, and they are so mild that they will fly right by us without giving a damn.
Though, to be clear, a lot of wasp aggresssion is dependent on the temperment of their queen. You might need to remove the nest.
Sounds to me like you’ve achieved your goal for nature but nature doesn’t give a fuck about your goal.
so okay a lot to unpack here
but let’s keep in mind that “nature” isn’t sleeping beauty, it’s animals and plants all trying to get one over on one another. They don’t give a shit.
Second, like, agriculture isn’t nature. It’s highly managed systems out of any kind of ecological context. So mixing you pot in with nasturtium? Maybe get off of tiktok for gardening advice.
Pick: Do you want to grow plants for human products or do you want a slice of the natural world?
If you want to grow for production, out doors indoors doesn’t matter. The name of the game is sanitation sanitation sanitation. And you can manage that in a mixed system.
Second, your “mites” aren’t mites, they are aphids. I can’t believe I have to explain this to a weed grower. Ants will move aphids around plants, effectively using them as their own form of animal agriculture. So relying on spraying doesn’t solve the primary issue there. You will need to spray to get the superficial stuff under control if you want to, but getting the ants under control is the only real way to control the aphids. The ants are far better at spreading aphids than you are at managing them. Beat the ants and then beat the aphids.
As far as beating the ants. Figure out what species they are first. Plenty ants will die back a bit from a chemical spray, but then come back with a vengeance a few weeks later because stress causes them to make more queens.
What can you do? Take it all as a lesson, take some time to clear you mind about what you want to do, and give it another go after cleaning up the mess. The outdoor pot is prob unrecoverable and will be swaggy after anyways. And it’s not clear why you are growing. Figure out what you want from growing and focus on doing that effectively.
If you want nature, that comes with slugs and wasps and ants. And mixed systems can be effective (my garden has probably a hundred different species). But it takes a long time and a lot of experience to have the knowledge to be able to identify issues early and respond appropriately for each plant in a mixed system.
This guy bugs insects.
Hey. Thanks for taking the time to write all of this.
But I just wanna say that your comment comes off pretty hostile in my eyes. The world is already a shitty place sometimes, and I think some of your statements were just unnecessary provocative tbh.
Regarding why I chose this kind of system: stability.
It’s basically impossible to prevent pests outdoors, and I thought that if I just let nature take its course, it will be self regulating and I don’t have to intervene.
Second, your “mites” aren’t mites, they are aphids. I can’t believe I have to explain this to a weed grower.
I also said that I have both. There is lots of white, flaky stuff (probably white flies) and some mites (small webs) as well as the aphids that are more prominently pictured.
Also, why should I be a more competent gardener only because I grow weed?
I find it basically impossible to kill this stuff. I find melons and chilis way harder tbh.I already have lots of knowledge, but I lack a bit behind in terms of experience. I find zero shame in that, and maybe others face the same problem right now, but are afraid to ask because of rude comments like yours 😬
You have no obligation to respond like I have not obligation to manage you for your response. If you want saccharine sweet ego fluffing responses, go prompt an AI. Being earnest and being honest are more important to me.
I already have lots of knowledge, but I lack a bit behind in terms of experience.
There must be a word in German for this kind of hubris. If not, we should petition for one, because in the age of tiktok and AI slop, people mistaking the sensation of understanding for themselves actually understanding something, is going to be a continuously compounding problem.
Regarding why I chose this kind of system: stability
So what is stable about your current system? Take the moment for some introspection. Is it stable? Or maybe are you assumptions about stability wrong? Are you expecting to permaculture on a balcony garden? Are you expecting too much because you have some misconceptions?
What I see in your pictures are what I see all the time from novice gardeners. 20 kg of compost (shit) in a 5 kg bag.
Plants are in constant competition with one another for resources. Both sunlight, but also root space, and also air (air flow more specifically). Go walk through a natural area and you notice that unless it’s a heavily invaded area, plants spread out. If you have a small area to work with, you are creating the exact kind of environment for the kinds of pest issues you’ve created by doing exactly what you are doing: this is self evident otherwise you wouldn’t be making this post or having these issues.
I also said that I have both. There is lots of white, flaky stuff (probably white flies) and some mites (small webs) as well as the aphids that are more prominently pictured.
I think my prior paragraph outlines why. You are trying to do too much with too little. Fewer plants and more spacing between them will both result in individually healthier plants and fewer disease issues because the diseases have a harder time moving through the system.
The white flakey stuff is probably a scale insect also getting moved around by the ants. Again, manage for the ants and the scale and aphid issues will solve themselves.
And with regards to mites, if you truly have them, burning it all down is often the only solution. It’s probably the best thing to do for you if the issues are as bad as they seem. It’s almost impossible to get rid of spider mites.
Also, why should I be a more competent gardener only because I grow weed?
Because what I’ve found in a few decades of growing is that marijuana growers take their craft very, very seriously. The ones who fail to develop good growing knowledge from reliable sources don’t make it.
However, knowledge in gardening is no replacement for experience, because growing is a fundamentally place based process. There is no knowledge other than experience that can tell you how to work with this particular plant, in this particular place, at this particular time.
And in regard to tone…
You call me the rude one but you are the one slandering the plants and animals who are simply responding to the conditions you created. Take some responsibility.
Here is a small section of my garden, with easily maybe a hundred different species, many native several endangered. No diseases, heavy production (3 species bananas, lemons, limes, yuzu, cacao, vanilla, kalo, lilikoi, rhubarb, eggplant, and more).
!()[https://files.catbox.moe/yoan9e.mp4]
Mixed systems can very much work, but don’t blame plants and animals for situations you create
If you want saccharine sweet ego fluffing responses, go prompt an AI. Being earnest and being honest are more important to me.
That’s why I made this post. Because maybe I needed some feedback from real people, with hands on experience, who either tried but failed, or did something a bit different and succeeded.
I didn’t criticise what you said, it’s how you said it.
I’m highly glad for your input, but I personally think that you could have said it a bit more friendly while being just as honest at the same time.There must be a word in German for this kind of hubris.
Sure, there’s always a german word for something :D
Right now, I can think of “Schreibtischexperte” (desktop expert), but maybe “Praxisversager” (a loser in hands-on-experience), or Theorieprofessor.
2 out if the 3 were made up by myself just at the moment, lol.
So what is stable about your current system? Take the moment for some introspection. Is it stable? Or maybe are you assumptions about stability wrong? Are you expecting to permaculture on a balcony garden? Are you expecting too much because you have some misconceptions?
Stable means for me, that there aren’t zero pests, but also no overabundance.
I think I may have overreacted a bit yesterday.
I was already pissed about having itchy bugs everywhere on my skin, and then the wasp attack was the final nail in the coffin…I planted the willow there on purpose, because last year, when I went for a walk, I noticed mainly the willow trees being swarmed by pests.
They act not only as a trellis for me, but also as a bait, so the pests are only sucking the sap of the willow and not the stuff around. And then, they attract predators, which will ward off any critters that might attack my crops.
However, I didn’t think about the relationship between the ants and those bastards.
If you have a small area to work with, you are creating the exact kind of environment for the kinds of pest issues you’ve created by doing exactly what you are doing
You are trying to do too much with too little. Fewer plants and more spacing between them will both result in individually healthier plants and fewer disease issues because the diseases have a harder time moving through the system.
I think you are absolutely right. I think some of the plants are stressed because they are overcrowded, and there isn’t sufficient light and airflow.
I tried to experiment this year and see how much I can grow per m².
Even though it sucks right now, I would call this experiment successful.I think I have learned something: More isn’t better.
My balcony will be less crowded next year.
Also, your garden looks cool af! 😁 Thanks for sharing the video!
And again, thank you for all the advice :)
Hey, buddy. Take the shade out of the comment and someone might be more willing to listen. You just j Sound like kind of a dick the way this is phrased.
Bruh you can manage your own tone however you want. No need to tone police others. You want to deliver them a lavender scented rebuttal, you go ahead and do that.
You come in with a thoughtless rant clearly devoid of any introspection or consideration that they may be the source of their own problems, expect some salt and shade.
Get some help 🙏
Yeah, you should be saying that to yourself…
You are trying to recreate that bit of nature that is useful to you on ~4 sqm of balcony, using a highly technologized approach. It doesn’t work like that. Please bear in mid that I read all your posts with interest and sometimes fascination. But you cannot only take that part of nature that suits you, and will it to work. I’ve got a small garden and planted some trees and a row of hornbeams as hedge. Did not tend to them over some years due to issues. And a nice little nature reserve developed with a ton of small birds that seek refuge in the growth developed, taking care of my insect “problem”, plus the plants lowering the summer heat significantly. So probably you’ve got to rethink your approach.
if you live in a place with a definite winter/summer cycle, then if you start with aphid & ant control early on (when it’s still cooler) you’ll have better luck keeping them away. I do realize it’s too late in the season now for that, but it’s something to think about for next year.
a spray with neem oil + castille soap works wonders repelling ants, aphids and mites. though, judging from your photos, it might be very limited in effectiveness. i bought a large spray bottle from the hardware store, mixed up the neem oil (a couple of tablespoons?) and the castille soap (about the same amount - I have a huge bottle of dr bronner’s), filled up the rest of the bottle with water, and I keep it out with my outdoor plants. I live in an apartment and the concrete steps are the only space i have to grow. every spring, most anything i grow outside will get attacked by aphids as it starts to get warm. spraying the undersides of all the leaves early in the morning kills them. do it every morning for a few days, spritzing during the day if you see them bunch up. i try not to do it longer than 5-6 days before giving a break from the neem oil. if it ever gets to that point, i take the entire pots out onto the sidewalk and using a gentle jetstream of water, I’ll shoot the aphids off.
flowering plants will generally attract hornets/wasps no matter what you do. but, if you don’t bug them, they won’t get aggressive usually. and even though they’re al the assholes of the air, they are still important pollinators.
diatomaceous earth works great against external pests like ants too. spread it around in a light dusting where you see them come in, that will work better than making something like a “circle of salt”… ants aren’t hollywood demons haha. it’ll keep out some beetles too and other critters. DE is safe around your cat too, hell, it’s used in baking too.
If you’re rocking a balcony garden, I have to assume you live in a food desert. In that case, you should feel proud for giving nature what it needs in your area: food.
I replaced my entire lawn with flowers, herbs, and even put a pond in the ground. I get tons of flies and wasps, but I get the benefit of natural predators: birds, opossums, etc.
Try to see if you can get nature to manage itself. I recommend a water source if you don’t have one…maybe even a suet feeder.
Oh man I’m sorry to read this; know that you’re an inspiration and resource for many, not just me.
I don’t know as much as you, but I have found it useful to use a good high pressure hose to wash bugs off my outdoor plants. Do it a few times and in my experience they find other places to settle, out of my way.
Also as much as we try to keep things “natural” there is very little natural about the way we grow plants. Watering, fertilizer, plant density, domesticated non-native plants, invasive pests… If you need to take steps like neem oil or pyrethrin to maintain the balance, that’s ok too.
Have you tried buying fully grown lady bugs and unleashing hell? I assume ants can only take them over when they are larvae and few in numbers?
Or maybe build an indoor lady bug tent of some sorts and become a lady bug whisperer?
Not an experienced gardener by any measure myself only casual home grown plants. Neem oil did not help me much with aphids I would say, apart from smelling bad.
Wasps are pollinators too
looks like you need an anteater, frogs or toads -> less ants -> ladybugs can do their thing like in the last pic
Alright, I just went to my local zoo and got this anteater.
My only problem right now is that it discovered my cannabis plant and is now acting a bit weird. Is that normal? What should I do?
(/s)
There was an old lady who swallowed a fly…
Well, it seems like the ants are protecting the pests. Deal with them first.
I use cinnamon (cheap, bulk, no need to use good stuff) to repel them. The cinnamon burns, and acts like diatomaceous earth, which is painful if not lethal to insects. Make a little barrier of it to keep the ants out. You can also use borax bait traps to deal with them (orgainic only, I know) but those traps work really well. I would avoid them if the ants are actually living inside your planters and you intend to eat what you are growing out there.
I would also suggest seeing about putting up some insect netting, or screening in the balcony once you have the infestation under control.
That is a very cute master gardener supervisor!
Look up what ladybug lava look like… Unless you are already aware that you have some photos of ladybugs in that set.
That’s why I included the pics of the ladybug larvae. I think most of them are dead by now, because the ants are no joke and kill everything they see.
When I saw them I was super thrilled, but the aphids spread more and more, and I barely see any ladybugs or other beneficial insects around 🥲
I’m not an organic gardener, but I know the sting of having my hard work ruined by pests. Are you opposed to any sort of treatment to kill/dissuade insects, or are you into the idea, but only if it’s organic.
If you’re in the second boat, check out https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinosad
I’m a big fan and it’s very safe for everything except insects. Sorry you’re struggling and hope things improve.
I already own a similar product to yours, but I only use it for indoor stuff atm.
My thought was following: I can’t fight against nature outside, the pests will always find a way.
So, instead I fight fire with fire and just let nature take its course, so I get a stable balanced system where no pest is overly abundant and where I don’t have to intervene.
With “organic” I basically mean I try to reproduce nature. No pesticides, no intervention, healthy living soil, and stuff like that.
Respectfully, if you read the history of Spinosad specifically, it was found precisely because insects were missing completely from a stretch of land. You can absolutely fight against pests outside and win. You will never win for good, but you can push back pests beyond your boundaries and keep them there with periodic maintenance.
Why do they get to enjoy your plants more than you?!
But do you want to fight against nature or reproduce it? It’s really difficult to grow food on a balcony. I always do balcony gardening when I have no other option, but without any big expectations. There will be aphids and other pests. Plants will look sickly if I can’t arrange containers big enough to contain their roots. Some just don’t like the shape of their pot and don’t grow no matter what. It’s impossible to recreate healthy nature on a tiny spot and have plenty of stuff to eat. I usually pick my few leaves of aromatic herbs and the one sad tomato, wave at the aphids and just try to be content to have created a little bit of green where there was none before.
As soon as I arrange some garden space I will raise my expectations again (a little - because nature means sharing space!) Might sound crazy, but I had the best success managing ants in the garden when I first shifted my perspective and remembered they were there before me - it’s me invading their garden, not the other way round! And then I asked them to treat my plants with respect and leave some food for me. They were more polite after that.
But do you want to fight against nature or reproduce it?
If I want to fight nature, I can pretty much only loose. So, I tried to recreate it a bit to attract pollinators and other beneficial insects to give them a small place to live.
Plants will look sickly if I can’t arrange containers big enough to contain their roots. Some just don’t like the shape of their pot and don’t grow no matter what.
For my productive crops, I use [email protected]. Huge yield for the volumes I use
As soon as I have some indoor grow space again I’d love to learn more about hydroponics. I guess the difference is the very controlled and shielded environment of hydroponics vs the open environment of balcony plants in soil? On the balcony you recreate a small, but incomplete ecosystem - I would imagine that a better balance might be created after some years. However the ecosystem itself will not care about whether we feel it’s agreeable for ourselves. I wonder if there is one week of the year when they start turning aggressive - I remember leaving their nests alone because they would be peaceful during the spring months, and then at some point in summer I’d get stung. This year I’ve witnessed quite a few people within one week getting stung by wasps - in different countries, so that’s quite interesting. I’m a real fan of undesired non-humans, so figuring out how to co-inhabit spaces with wasps, ants, rats, mice etc. without resorting to genocide is one of my favourite topics!
I guess the difference is the very controlled and shielded environment of hydroponics vs the open environment of balcony plants in soil?
Hydroponics only means that I don’t use soil, only nutrient solution and maybe a medium like clay balls.
Many pests (e.g. fungus gnats, thrips, etc.) are soilborne and can’t complete their reproductive cycle in “hostile” media like mine.
Also, I have more control. I can always check the nutrient strength and pH for example in seconds, and then adjust it or flush the media.
That way, I can often see problems arising before they show, which allows for better growth and more robust plants.And then, the growing conditions are pretty much constantly perfect. I don’t have to worry about waterlogged soil for example, because the roots are constantly moist, but still perfectly aerated.
If you did hydro once, you’ll understand how much aeration matters, in soil just as much, if not even more!I wonder if there is one week of the year when they start turning aggressive - I remember leaving their nests alone because they would be peaceful during the spring months, and then at some point in summer I’d get stung.
Is it possible that they are photoperiodic and sense that winter is coming?
I’m a real fan of undesired non-humans, so figuring out how to co-inhabit spaces with wasps, ants, rats, mice etc. without resorting to genocide is one of my favourite topics!
Same! That’s why I did this balcony project. Everything around me is dead. Concrete, pesticides, monocultures, and so on.
My grandma visited me a while ago and said that this is one of the most living places she has seen since years.
I even arranged myself with the ants. They were super annoying in the beginning, but now, we respect each others boundaries. They are actually useful by being my personal cleaning crew, who dispose all dead bodies.
My only annoyance is that they’ve learnt how to exploid the aphids tho…Oh, thanks for the detailed write-up! I’ve always dismissed hydroponics as ‘too much tech, can’t be arsed to bother’, but it does sound interesting, especially the part about soil-based pests. Not sure I understand how the roots are in water yet get aerated? How do you use clay balls? How do you test for nutrient strength? Sorry, so many questions. I miss growing the good weed, but at the moment I’m not really settled anywhere.
Funny enough today was my day of getting stung - visiting a farm I’m hoping to move to, where I’ll have space for a garden. Nice welcome, got me straight in the eye and I learned that plantain (Spitzwegerich) gives immediate relief and prevents too much swelling (in the past I’ve used onion as well with good success). They seem to have settled in every hollow space they could find. Photosensitivity seems a likely explanation. I’ve always assumed they get more aggressive as their nests grow larger with brood to protect, but it doesn’t explain how they seem to start stinging at the same time in different places in Europe.
How sweet of your grandma to notice how you created an island of life! Seeing everything dead is really tough to witness - I find it strange how most people seem to be okay with it, but then how okay are they really? Just creating a place for life is probably worth more than any harvest and brings plenty of good karma!
How do you use clay balls?
I made this post a while ago about “Semi-Hydro”, a very simple, yet extremely effective technique.
Not sure I understand how the roots are in water yet get aerated?
In S/H and the Kratky method for example, which are both passive, only a part of the roots is submerged, while the rest is only kept moist, but freely in the air. This allows for extreme well gas exchange.
Other techniques often require air stones with pumps and electricity, but even those have their own strengths and weaknesses.
How do you test for nutrient strength?
I do that by measuring the electric conductivity (EC). Fertilizer = salts; more salts = higher EC. The device itself costs less than 20 bucks.
There are charts available for pretty much every type of crop.
You can even notice if a plant will suffer from a deficiency soon, because the EC will then drop, or if it will get nutrient burn when the EC rises to a certain level. That’s super useful, especially when growing outdoors, because sometimes the transpiration is much higher than the nutrient demand.
You can even measure the pH, which will tell you a lot about the nutrient absorption and availability.
For example, I noticed the pH drifting upwards when the plant is in bloom, because of the high phosphorus demands.All of that is pretty much impossible with soil based methods of growing
Some notes:
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slugs and snails hate traveling on copper, if you isolate the area early (before they come), you can keep them away with a barrier of copper foil
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tobacco deters and heated + filtered tobacco water kills insects, aphids are relatively easy to kill with “green soap” spray (direct translation, I don’t know the English name of the substance)
Now as for wasps, I would consider a netting of some sort. Most likely, it would keep other kinds of insects out too, but aphids are probably too small to keep out with nets. If there’s too much, I would control their numbers with soap.
I’ve never found copper to be effective against slugs. They didn’t even mind one bit :D
But do you know what works? Right, my jet flame lighter. Brutal, but effective.
I’ve used used coffee grounds to keep them from eating my orchids’ new root tips.
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