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All social systems fail for the same reason - human greed. Capitalism, socialism, communism are all great on paper but they all fall apart because the people seeking to rule are greedy and take more than their share.
I’m 13 and this is deep.
You should be in school kid.
Wow what an original comeback, did your mommy help you come up with it?
K
i dont think that is what capitalism tries to be, its just that we have all these big corrupt governments that take things to this point
These big corrupt governments are a direct product of how the capitalist system functions. Politics are fundamentally inseparable from economics.
if you argue that big corrupt governments are a product of the capitalist system, then ill argue big oppressive governments are a product of the communist system
at the end of the day, i think both of these systems can work in theory, the problem is that neither one of these systems are implemented properly
as long fundamental human values such as ethics, morality, justice, equality and democracy are not valued, it doesn’t matter which system you choose, it’s not gonna work
And you’d be wrong to argue that because communist system produces governments that actually represent people. At the end of the day, you should spend some time actually learning about the subject you’re attempting to debate instead of wasting everyone’s time writing musings born out of ignorance.
so are you arguing that big communist governments such as china and north korea (and in the past soviet union) are not oppressive or their oppressiveness have nothing to do with communist system?
I can say that with absolute confidence having personally grown up in USSR. Similarly, if you look at the public opinions from China or Cuba it’s pretty clear nobody is feeling oppressed. You can even login in to Xiaohongshu yourself and talk to people in China and see they’re not oppressed. Seems that all the people oppressed by communists are either scum bag capitalist or they exist solely in the deranged minds of western libs.
or maybe they are scared to say that they are oppressed because they know that the app you are talking about is heavily moderated by the government? see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaohongshu#Content_moderation_and_censorship
also see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China
i didn’t grow up in ussr, however another user who did apparently didn’t have the same experience with you and there’s also a wikipedia page for human rights in soviet union which also contradicts your experience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
Ah yes, everybody in China is afraid to speak their mind. Imagine being a grown ass adult and genuinely believing that. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised given that you evidently form all your opinions based on wikipedia.
Weirdly, pretty much every western study on China shows that people actually living in China see their country as being more democratic than people living in US do.
- https://www.newsweek.com/most-china-call-their-nation-democracy-most-us-say-america-isnt-1711176
- https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilified-abroad-popular-at-home-China-s-Communist-Party-at-100
- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree
- https://web.archive.org/web/20230511041927/https://6389062.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/6389062/Canva images/Democracy Perception Index 2023.pdf
- https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-say-people-98686
- https://web.archive.org/web/20201229132410/https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-that-china-is-more-democratic-than-the-united-states-russia-is-nearby-and-ukraine-is-at-the-bottom/
Maybe there is no conspiracy here and vast majority of people in China genuinely live happy lives, and you just can’t accept that because of your biases.
Meanwhile, the user who is disagreeing with me is listing absolute nonsense as examples of supposed oppression which I already addressed in my other reply.
@yogthos @ngn If you say that having grown up in USSR you did not feel oppressed, that only means to me that you or your family were part of the ruling class. I also grew up in USSR and while I did enjoy free education and healthcare, there was a fair bit of oppression as well. As examples: freedom of religion, freedom to travel, freedom of ownership, among others. I am not saying that it was impossible to live there, but certain activities were severely “frowned upon”.
My family was a regular working family. I don’t know what this ruling class you speak of is either. Even if you just look at the background of all the leaders of USSR, they all have regular working class background. Meanwhile, last I checked churches existed in USSR, right to personal property also existed. The reality is that every society places some restrictions on personal freedoms, but claiming that the restrictions USSR placed on people were oppressive is the height of intellectual dishonesty.
There’s also unions. Come join me kneecapping the boss for trying to cross the strike line together!
You forgot the 3rd panel: exploit people.
you generally have to win the birth lottery to get a head start there though
yeah, but if you do win it you get to have a good time.
it’s a wonderful system
porque no los dos
Are there no workhouses? Are there no prisons?
What if you are a shitty employee and the capitalist doesn t notice. You are getting payed way to much for the little work you do. Or you are working solo and selling your own goods those are choices.
For your first, outliers exist in every system, but a system is its averages and not its outliers. For the latter, you can’t really be expected to compete with mass manufacturing on price per quality.
You obviously cannot compete with mass production goods, but there are a lot of products like food, art etc, that benefit from being unique. I agree tho it is not the norm, but still a choice.
For now. Eventually even those industries will fail to compete.
I agree, through the lens of unfetted capitalism, but, with adequate regulation, I don’t think this is a necessary outcome. Although, perhaps “unfetted capitalism” isn’t capitalism?
Why would capitalists, who run the system under capitalism, choose to regulate themselves?
Perhaps it’s time to stop using appeals to purity and acknowledge that this is how capitalism functions in practice everywhere it’s been tried. Entire books have been written on the subject of why capital concentration is a necessary product of capitalism, and how capitalists use their wealth in shape society in their own interest. The government ultimately represents the class that holds power, and in a capitalist society it happens to be the capital owning class. That’s why even when regulations are enacted, they’re always dismantled in the end.
Capitalism can’t last forever due to issues like the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall, and tendency towards monopolization over time. Regulation doesn’t stop this.
Porque no Las dos
I probably get hate for this but I think it’s too easy to blame everything on capitalism. I think the lack of governance of big businesses is what is actually causing issues. The laws allow for exploitation and the infinite accumulation of wealth. Capitalism has to follow the laws…
Damn, who would have thought that a system where power comes from holding capital, the laws favor those who hold capital.
Have you considered that there may be a link between Capitalism as a Mode of Production and the continuous strengthening of power in Monopolies over the State?
Right, “lack of monopolies”, the defining trait of communism…
You’re actually understanding why Communism makes sense. If centralization is an assured result of Capitalism, it makes more sense to publicly own and plan, and open up control to democratic measures. Industry will advance, and centralization will occur, so it is better to have the people own and plan this process rather than unaccountable Capitalists.
This was the entire reason behind Marx’s predictions for Communism.
Monopolies are forbidden in (functioning) capitalist economies, they are not an assured result. So that kind of breaks the whole premise.
Plus the documented failure of planned economies, leading to famines and mass deaths.
Monopolies are forbidden in (functioning) capitalist economies, they are not an assured result.
By who? God?
Plus the documented failure of planned economies, leading to famines and mass deaths.
Most communist revolutions led to massive increase in life expectancy and a massive reduction in hunger. That’s just a empirical fact.
Plus the documented failure of planned economies, leading to famines and mass deaths.
I think you’re confusing socialist planned economies with capitalism & imperialism (A.K.A. monopoly capitalism), because the vast majority of famines and mass deaths have occurred in the later[1].
You can’t forbid the passage of time. Monopoly is the end result of Capitalism, firms beat others and absorb them. Simply “banning” them or breaking them up a bit does nothing to actually prevent them from forming and weakening the power of the state to do so, the state after all serves business.
Secondly, I don’t know what you’re genuinely getting at with planned economies and famines and mass deaths. In all AES countries, life expectancy rose dramatically, and previously common famines ended. Tsarist Russia and China under the KMT had regular famines until the Soviets and CPC respectively improved agriculture and stopped famine. It wasn’t an overnight fix, but it was fixed because of the planned economy.
I think you haven’t done any research at all, honestly.
What’s a holodomor or two between friends, right? How many of your familiy members died in one? Or is your research just limited to dictators’ propaganda?
Any source on those monopolies, btw? Banning them (again, in countries there the law applies, so not the US) works just fine. Any service or product I can think of I can get at least 3 different sources to offer it, sometimes hundreds. Unlike behind the iron curtain, which was either one or very often zero.
The famine in the 30s was indeed the last of its kind, outside of World War II when Nazi Germany took Ukraine, the USSR’s breadbasket, famine was over and food stabilized in a country that had regular famines for centuries. My research includes primary sources and contemporary sources from after the opening of the Soviet Archives, I can link some books if you’d like.
As for Monopolies, look at the stock market. The state serves business, breaking up monopolies is done with the consent of larger businesses. Further, combination of firms is a necessity to combat the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall, by controlling more of the supply chain for any given commodity you can streamline it and improve production capacity. This is an ever-increasing scale.
Today, wealth concentration is the highest it has been in history in some of the fewest hands possible. Monopoly is a fact.
The capitalist class largely writes the laws, and they don’t like competition at all.
- Competition is for losers. — Peter Thiel[1][2]
- George Carlin: It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it.
- [Princeton & Northwestern] Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
- “Bourgeois Democracy”: What Do Marxists Mean By This Term?
How can you not understand that all these things are related and are a direct product of the way capitalist system function.
Because it’s not…
It very obviously is and entire books have been written on this subject. You could try reading some of them. Can start with Chomsky’s Manufacturing Consent.
Lots of books have been written about scientology too, appeal to authority won’t fly here.
Because it’s not…
👆That’s your entire argument so far, that and equating Edward Herman & Noam Chomsky with L. Ron Hubbard.
Ah, so you want me to prove a negative? Right on!
PS: rebuttal of appeal to authority with more appeal to authority. Noice.
I guess you’re here to sound like a sophomore debate pervert and to collect downvotes.
Proof by assertion, ‘noice’
Proof by assertion is apparently fine though
I love how you just throw terms around in an attempt make yourself sound smart. Nobody is appealing to authority here. What you’re being told is that you should educate yourself on the subject instead of spewing ignorant nonsense. Read books from people who spent time studying these things, and try to use the few precious brain cells that you possess to comprehend what they say. You don’t have to take them at their word. You can read the supporting evidence they provide, read what other researchers say, and then form an understanding of the subject. Or you could just continue being an ignorant clown.
Start a business, emigrate, apply for social support programs, retrain to a job that’s in demand…
start a business: you’re still being exploited, and now you’re an exploiter
emigrate: okay and now you’re in a different place and have ended back at the original choices
social support: which usually require ending back and the original choices
retrain: okay you retrain and now… you find yourself back at the original choices
The solution is to own land to live off of it I guess?
