Each requires a different strategy. Someone who is fooled may lack critical thinking skills or exposure to people or ideas outside of their information bubble. These problems are rectifiable if approached with care.
The other is more difficult, and requires a deeper understanding of the underlying causes behind their opinions.
Using the wrong approach on the wrong person wastes time and resources, and also risks hardening their position.
Anyone who pretends to not know what Trump is about is just a liar. People who vote for him want fascism and that’s why they vote for him. I’m sick and tired of the excuses.
No, a lot of people just don’t pay any attention, unfortunately. If they get their news mainly through the grapevine or social media circles, they might very well have been taken by the con.
I mean, you had history classes in HS, right? What percentage of the class engaged, paid attention and learned the material, vs what percentage just did whatever it took to pass the class, didn’t really give a fuck, and then promptly forgot everything once they passed it?
We have to remember how our fellow Americans really are. Some pay attention, some just don’t. The one’s that don’t probably couldn’t even explain to you what fascism actually is, they’d probably say “I dunno, killing Jews?” or something.
I don’t really think most people form their beliefs based on what is logically true; they get their cues from the group who makes them feel a sense of community.
Deviation from this accepted morality carries the risk of being ostracized, and acts as a control mechanism to keep people in line.
The real issue, in my opinion, is that people are getting their moral cues from an amoral media who wants to enrage them for profit and then the reactionaries carry that back to their communities to feed it into their echo chambers.
Therefore, I don’t really think facts will change people’s politics; that will not happen until their reactionary community either is no longer useful to them or they find something more worthwhile outside of it. I respectfully reject that there is a fundamentally different strategy for “true believers” and “the fooled;” I’d say both populations are mostly the same (except for the politicians, who know exactly what the game is).
No, facts absolutely can change people’s minds, from my anecdotal experience anyway. They simply have to be handled with a great deal of care, you can’t speak down to people, you have to ask careful questions and respectfully approach even their false opinions.
Taking an almost Socratic method, in a way, where you’re spending more time listening than hosing them down with evidence.
It’s not easy, I wouldn’t say most people can readily do it without training or at least carefully considering their strategic approach. It does not come naturally, and traditional schooling or debate will not prepare you for it, and can even be counterproductive. There is a real risk of doing more harm than good. But deprogramming is absolutely a feasible goal to work towards. Just takes patience.
I do think that those types of conversations are useful, but only to someone who is doxastically prepared to change due to the aforementioned community reasons.
I think we’re mostly in agreement though and we’re just using different terms, so thanks for sharing your perspective. If you’re interested, I read a great book a while ago called How Minds Change that digs into it a bit more.
I think of it a little differently, and don’t know if this has an attribution: either you have an ideology, or an ideology has you. We may very well not know that we’ve been interpellated into a particular position, and then the “pretending” isn’t actually pretending. And if you’re authentic to an ideological position, it isn’t pretending either. We certainly can engage in pretend to conceal our ideological leanings, but this involves a level of self-awareness that is near impossible to maintain.
I sympathize with the desire to know, but I think it really doesn’t matter.
To quote Vonnegut, “We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”
Each requires a different strategy. Someone who is fooled may lack critical thinking skills or exposure to people or ideas outside of their information bubble. These problems are rectifiable if approached with care.
The other is more difficult, and requires a deeper understanding of the underlying causes behind their opinions.
Using the wrong approach on the wrong person wastes time and resources, and also risks hardening their position.
Anyone who pretends to not know what Trump is about is just a liar. People who vote for him want fascism and that’s why they vote for him. I’m sick and tired of the excuses.
No, a lot of people just don’t pay any attention, unfortunately. If they get their news mainly through the grapevine or social media circles, they might very well have been taken by the con.
That’s what they’ll say but I’m not buying it.
I mean, you had history classes in HS, right? What percentage of the class engaged, paid attention and learned the material, vs what percentage just did whatever it took to pass the class, didn’t really give a fuck, and then promptly forgot everything once they passed it?
We have to remember how our fellow Americans really are. Some pay attention, some just don’t. The one’s that don’t probably couldn’t even explain to you what fascism actually is, they’d probably say “I dunno, killing Jews?” or something.
I’m not American.
I don’t really think most people form their beliefs based on what is logically true; they get their cues from the group who makes them feel a sense of community.
Deviation from this accepted morality carries the risk of being ostracized, and acts as a control mechanism to keep people in line.
The real issue, in my opinion, is that people are getting their moral cues from an amoral media who wants to enrage them for profit and then the reactionaries carry that back to their communities to feed it into their echo chambers.
Therefore, I don’t really think facts will change people’s politics; that will not happen until their reactionary community either is no longer useful to them or they find something more worthwhile outside of it. I respectfully reject that there is a fundamentally different strategy for “true believers” and “the fooled;” I’d say both populations are mostly the same (except for the politicians, who know exactly what the game is).
No, facts absolutely can change people’s minds, from my anecdotal experience anyway. They simply have to be handled with a great deal of care, you can’t speak down to people, you have to ask careful questions and respectfully approach even their false opinions.
Taking an almost Socratic method, in a way, where you’re spending more time listening than hosing them down with evidence.
It’s not easy, I wouldn’t say most people can readily do it without training or at least carefully considering their strategic approach. It does not come naturally, and traditional schooling or debate will not prepare you for it, and can even be counterproductive. There is a real risk of doing more harm than good. But deprogramming is absolutely a feasible goal to work towards. Just takes patience.
I do think that those types of conversations are useful, but only to someone who is doxastically prepared to change due to the aforementioned community reasons.
I think we’re mostly in agreement though and we’re just using different terms, so thanks for sharing your perspective. If you’re interested, I read a great book a while ago called How Minds Change that digs into it a bit more.
Yeah that’s a valid point. Thanks for the link, I’m unfamiliar with that book.
I think of it a little differently, and don’t know if this has an attribution: either you have an ideology, or an ideology has you. We may very well not know that we’ve been interpellated into a particular position, and then the “pretending” isn’t actually pretending. And if you’re authentic to an ideological position, it isn’t pretending either. We certainly can engage in pretend to conceal our ideological leanings, but this involves a level of self-awareness that is near impossible to maintain.