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I think people are ignoring looking at this through the lens of anti-competitive behavior. Right now there is an alternative, yes. But Apple continues to grab the marketshare in the US (and some Asian and EU markets). However, there is no guarantee that will be forever. Sure, they support SMS now, but again, no guarantee that’ll continue to last.
Apple has displayed on numerous occasions that they do not care about interoperability with other platforms and have even been outright hostile and aggressive against them. Just look what happened when some kid figured out how to make iMessage work on any other platform. Sure, that kid’s solution was hacky, but he was 16 years old. If one kid can do it, then there’s absolutely no justifiable reason seasoned software engineers can’t figure out a secure solution.
It astounds me that there are so many people defending any company that not only encourages walled gardens, but in some cases aggressively enforces it. Yeah there are alternatives, but people are lazy and seek convenience. iMessage just works by default, and so many folks get annoyed or even sometimes confused when non-Apple users ask them to use a 3rd party app to communicate with modern features instead of being stuck with SMS’s severe shortcomings.
That’s why I think the DOJ is justified in this. Because it is anti-competitive behavior.
Reminder that Apple has a well documented history of intentionally slowing down devices, reducing battery life artificially, and bricking jailbroken or even just lightly repaired phones. They’re a malicious company that deserves to get reigned in.
Last Apple product I owned was an iPhone 3. It forced installed the Version 4 software and bricked my phone. The folks at the Apple store claimed the only solution was to upgrade my device.
I went Android after that and never looked back.
Apple has displayed on numerous occasions that they do not care about interoperability with other platforms and have even been outright hostile and aggressive against them.
Which, as a Mac user who lived through the 90s, is some bullshit. Apple wouldn’t have survived if they couldn’t reverse engineer Microsoft stuff to get it to work with Macs. They relied on open standards to survive, and now they’re being assholes about other people wanting open standards.
I’ve been a fanboy for decades and even I’m looking forward to the DOJ taking them down a peg.
I also want the DOJ to peg Apple.
Ignoring the users in here who obviously don’t understand how critical SMS actually is and how fucking awful it is from a security standpoint because they’d rather be armchairs than actually learn anything useful or true…
Wondering if this sudden move is at all to do with Apples announcement of their quantum encryption. US govt intel complex is probably seething rn
If Apple cares about protecting privacy they’d use an open, interoperable, cross-platform standard instead of just making cracks like, “just buy your Mom an iPhone.”
But android does this exact thing and has far more vulnerabilities
Open source doesn’t magically make things more secure unfortunately, no matter how many people seem to think this
AOSP Development was almost completely separated from the commonly distributed Android OS around version 2.2 in like 2010-ish, if I’m not mistaken. If you do get an OS built upon the old open source versions, they are usually quite secure and value privacy heavily, such as CalyxOS.
So no, Android is not Open Source nor is it free, but yes proprietary Android software has more potential vulnerabilities.
Last year android had 1400 vulnerabilities to iOS’ 482.
402 of androids were above a CVSS score of 7 & 221 for iOS.
Android is less secure than iOS on average and Apple is widely known to be more secure than android. That’s not to say I’m a fan of things apple does. I’m purely speaking vulns for one OS to another.
So we both agree that proprietary operating systems need to be outlawed and dismantled.
Outlawed?
Not at all
Think it’s a bad idea?
Yea
The more used OS will always have more people looking for ways to break it. Same shit happened with windows and Mac. The old picture of the house in the city with bars on the windows vs a house in the country with unlocked doors still applies.
The only vulnerabilities you even really need to worry about are zero days which won’t be in the threat tracking databases.
Right but that’s a contributing factor to iOS’ strength
Their risk surface isn’t massive…
Their App Store is on a tighter leash too so less risk there and less opportunities for persistence/c2 activity which encourages and enables further vuln discovery and valuable data mining on devices
I’m confused what you’re arguing here
Just recently it was discovered that apples m1 silicon has a security vulnerability that exposes encryption keys under certain conditions and it’s a hardware vulnerability which is unpatchable without buying the newer models.
I’m not saying that apple is invincible…
I think you may be misunderstanding if you thought my view was really that shallow…
You can’t compare those two. First of all, Apple’s walled garden makes it significantly harder to perform security research. Second, Android has a way larger ecosystem and is not a monolith, so of course there’s gonna be more.
Apple = Apple, but Android ≠ Android.
So fine, do you wanna look at specific numbers for the pixel, Samsung, huwaeii, etc against iOS? Bc we can!
- an ex android guy who switched to iOS after researching the stats
Also, I hope you see the irony in you saying we can’t compare apple(s) to oranges (android as a whole ecosystem).
You definitely can, and I did so fairly.
If you had any idea about how it works, you would not compare them. If you had any idea about how hard Apple makes security research, especially without a Mac, you would not compare them.
But you don’t know what it’s about. Being a consumer does not make you an expert.
There certainly is a history of attacking Apple over their use of encryption. I wonder if they’re still mad they didn’t get that iPhone backdoor they wanted.
Oh, they got it. Just not from Apple… If you have physical device access, we have basically zero methods to stop nation state level access
I believe there was an Israeli provided crack on that issue
Exactly what i was thinkin
like apple wouldnt build backdoors
Unfounded paranoia, google on the other hand has a history of this. Not to mention the audio recording from chrome browsers.
thats a bit naive
apple was already collaborating in the snowden days
Please post source- very interested in what you mean by collaboration.
i mean they are part of the PRISM program like google, microsoft and others, as revealed by snowden back when he leaked it. they are doing some questionable mass image hash scanning in the name of “protecting the children” now too. i’m sure you can find more bullshit by simply reading their TOS.
honestly its very safe to assume every single stock firmware, on every device is compromised unless its FOSS. this includes cars, tvs and everything in between.
the single major advantage of android in this respect is that you can change the OS that comea with it. i think its the only real way to use phones semi privately now.
Okay well now we’re talking about leaked government documents…
Which comes with a whole different set of rules including mechanisms like false info. Specifically, tactics like misdirection (to sway public opinion against good-guys, perhaps like apple, while still not lying about any bad guys involved, a proverbial shit bomb which makes everyone appear guilty)
Not sure why Apple would be so public in fighting against the cia/fbi regarding giving them a way into your phone if they were already letting them in lmao.
What sense does that make?
I do, however think that hardware should be open-sourced and heavily subsidized from a career standpoint for pen testers so that we can have standardized and vetted hardware which can run Apples flavor or androids, etc. This is however pretty far out from my realm of knowledge so I can’t speak to likelihood or anything like that.
Just know we agree on your very last point
i dont care what their PR department is saying, or making it look. in fact its the very last thing i care, their actions speak louder.
if you want to think apple devices are not spying on you because of reasons you are free to do so, im not gonna argue that.
I hope something significant happens because of this, but somehow I just see Apple walking away with a slap on the wrist before continuing to engage in anti-consumer practices like nothing happened
I think they’ll probably get billions in fines like FaceBook did, and have a repayment plan for decades. Or maybe they’ll get forcibly unmerged, that could be fun.
They’ll roll over and offer an encryption backdoor, DOJ will offer a token fine, everything goes away and consumers get a deep, hard, dry anal fuck.
Business as usual
My thoughts also. Break. Them. Up.
Sue every US corporation with over 100B market cap please.
This is why I voted blue.
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Ah man how dare they hurt poor Apple, you showed them!
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Rather than focusing on two or three illegal acts, the complaint alleges that Apple engages in a pattern of behaviors that further entrench consumers into their ecosystem and make it harder to switch, even in the face of high prices and degraded quality.
“They’ve written a complaint in a way that seeks to avoid weaknesses that I think the judge might have seen in that case, to add additional material so it’s not simply a reprise of Epic v. Apple.”
Rather than going after one or two discrete harmful actions, the DOJ looks to establish an interlocking pattern of illegal behavior that is epitomized by five examples, like the “green bubble” non-interoperability in messaging between iPhones and Android phones.
“DOJ has stepped back from the details and simply asked and answered the question, what are all these about?” says John Kwoka, professor of economics at Northeastern University who recently served as chief economist to FTC Chair Lina Khan.
In that case, the appeals court found that the denture manufacturing company violated anti-monopoly law by using “exclusive dealing arrangements to prevent rivals from getting inputs they need to succeed,” according to Kovacic.
California Attorney General Rob Bonta, one of the state AGs who has joined in the DOJ lawsuit, tells The Verge that the enforcers “are focused on injunctive relief.”
The original article contains 2,022 words, the summary contains 219 words. Saved 89%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
“The one that really jumped out at me was this idea that parents don’t want to get their kids Android phones if they have Apple phones" 🤣🤣🤣🤣 i’m sorry, but who came up with that, google? i can’t even imagine parents with apples buying androids for their kids, nor vice versa. how silly.
i do agree that texting and other basic phone functions should of course be interoperable.
Yeah, I wouldn’t get my kid something I am not personally well versed in. My parents learned that the hard way by failing to stay ahead of me in knowing how to use Windows, back when we had 98, and 2000, and Vista, etc. I’m grounded, you’re locking the computer? Safe mode with networking it is, I’ll print my pornographic images after they download in 10 minutes.
My mom just laughs anytime my kids misbehave. I guess I have it coming.
There are a lot more cheap Android options. I wouldn’t want to get a kid a pricey iPhone for their first smartphone.
My kids get my hand me downs.
Cheapest iPhone is $430.
Being tied into FindMy is probably worth that, especially for parents.
You can get a new android under $200. And google has their own feature to locate their phones.
Ok. Which is a current iPhone owner more likely to buy.
- The thing that ties into their current services and is a device which they are familiar with to help their kid when questions arise.
- Save ~$200 to deal with another service and have to do more work to support the device when questions arise.
The juice isn’t worth the squeeze before we even get into how many years of updates that $200 phone is gonna get vs the cheapest iPhone.
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I despise any corporate apologists and fanboys. The fact that people complain about interoperability issues tells you many reject your idea.
The way Apple is going, my next phone will probably be a FairPhone that operates Android.
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Cheapest iPhone is $430.
A ruggered Android phone cost about 200 € and there are also under 100 € android phones.
As a first phone for a kid is more than enough, given how it will be treated
DOJ is blaming Apple for the failure of the Windows phone and the Amazon Fire phone. It feels a bit silly.
Edit: lotta windows and fire phone fans on Lemmy it seems.
No, you are talking out your ass so people downvote you. Simple as that.
Huh. Well it certainly would make sense to blame Apple at least partially if that information is correct. Which then means that the article is real but you fail to actually understand it and it’s implications.
Windows phone failed because it sucked. Microsoft had every advantage in the mobile space. They had windows CE and pocket PC long before iPhone. They also had tablets. All of them failed in their own right.
Under capitalism, you don’t have a god given right to have every product you make succeed. You don’t get to have the government step in and sue on your behalf because your crappy product failed. But, the Lemmy hive mind downvotes because “Apple bad.” People don’t have critical thinking skills or principles on here. There is pretty much no difference between a windows or Linux user on Lemmy and a Trump supporter in this regard. You picked a side and you’re just going to root for your team, regardless of the nuance or merits of the arguments.
Green bubble cry babies. It just means SMS. 🙄
You mean green bubble Chad’s? I hope they didn’t take away the green bubble it’s the only way people know you’re not in a cult.
Aww are you sad it’s green too? Clearly you are uneducated. The green bubble appears when the message has to go through the SMS protocol. Messages from iPhone to iPhone can be green too.
But don’t let me stop you from spreading your lies like a Christian.
I’ve never seen any green on my end, but it is my favorite color!
Guess you must be in the “cult” lol
But you don’t understand. It’s Apple’s responsibility to make iMessage work across all platforms instead of users making informed decisions and using WhatsApp/FacebookMessenger/Whatever nth version of chat app Google is offering. /s
Bunch toddlers demanding equal playtime with a toy they don’t own and then ranting to their mom, who instead of buying the toy for their kid, sues the neighbor to force them to let their kid play with the toy.
SMS is hilariously insecure, and messaging is a critical piece of infrastructure. I’m shocked that the government has taken so long forcing Apple to play nicely with other platforms, considering international data security.
What are you asking for? For iMessage to become the standard for messaging?
It’s the telcos fault SMS sucks and it’s the telcos fault RCS is a joke unless you use Googles implementation on Android.
No, but API interoperability with literally anything else would be a damn good start. Right now Apple sues anyone who tries to make a bridge between iMessage and other standards.
Why? iMessage is a proprietary platform that Apple invested billions into. Expecting them to have API inter-op is idiotic. It’s not like you can’t text people outside of iMessage. There’s SMS, and people are free to use it. Expecting a “bridge” between two standards for the sake of having a bridge tells me people do not know how any of this works and are just parroting the same stupid arguments put forth by people that, again, do not understand how a technology is planned for, developed and maintained.
If there’s such an appetite, ask the fucking government to set a standard and ask every smartphone operating in the country to comply. It’s really that simple.
upvoted for you last paragraph. bingo. and i’d love that. all the basic functions should be done to a standard, and a good one to boot. save time, money, and bullshit baby games on all sides.
Don’t bother mate. Lemmy is a dumpster fire filled with angsty teenagers who hate their green bubble. It’ll be another couple decades before they understand how the world works.
True. I’m fine with the likes of Lemmy/Reddit users not getting it, but in this case, we have a DOJ that thinks this is somehow for them to solve. Law making via litigation is just lazy and moronic imo.
How would a third party client guarantee e2e encryption with iMessage?
And by what mechanism was that company enabling that bridge? Did that mechanism store iCloud credentials? Did it encrypt the drives the users iCloud data could have been downloaded to? Did they have access to iMessages in clear text before forwarding them?
The entire web is built on standardized e2e encryption schemes fought for by techie nerds so that we don’t have these problems there.
I’m not a programmer, but this doesn’t seem hard. The API could specify a cryptographic standard. Third party clients don’t need access to iCloud data, just the API to pass message and attachment content in encrypted form with a standardized handshake.
What am I missing?
And what data would this client be handling via the API?
Even Signal discourages third party apps for this reason you are indeed missing.
People forget the state of SMS before Apple decided to tell telcos to go fuck themselves and rolled out iMessage.
Americans would still be paying per-text message without Apple.
All fine and dandy. Kudos to Apple for the innovation! But then they decided to keep it strictly inside Apple.
That’s not how communication works. Imagine if Bell kept the telephone to themselves… Oh wait… They tried… Got sued for it… Company broke up and the whole world got interoperable telephone system that is alive to this day.
Innovation is great, capitalizing on innovation is also great. But eventually it needs to reach everyone and the answer cannot be “then everyone should buy Apple”.
Imagine if DARPA kept the Internet as “Americans only”
So you’re saying iPhones are as important to humanity as the internet and should be equally regulated as such?
You missed the entire point. Typical Apple fanboy.
The iphone isn’t at all important to humanity and that’s why it should be regulated. Especially when something so unimportant gets such a large market dominance.
Anyone should be able to buy anything and expect things to be interoperable.
I like the airpods. They don’t work properly on android. Why?
They could easily license out the tech and other companies will pay billions for it. and Apple will get their ROI.
Intel was forced to license x86.
Face it. Apple’s behavior is visibly monopolistic. It wouldn’t have landed on DOJ’s desk if there were no good reason.
Nothing is stopping people from downloading whatever chat app they want to use. EU has done that.
Something is stopping another messaging app to have sms fallback and be the default messaging app on iOS. It’s iOS.
But does it work? Can you, as an Android user, send text messages to and from people with iPhones?
I’m saying this is a national security issue. The government has a vested interest in killing off SMS as soon as possible.
SMS works. iMessage works. Both work in tandem on a device and there’s a distinction which is which, therefore you get full access to and from when communicating with a device. I’m shocked that there’s this lunacy around conflating the two or expecting two different standards to work because people want to.
I want to have flying cars and breathe underwater without any equipment next, guess lets file a lawsuit forcing sub makers and car makers to go make that happen.
Ah, I see a comment with downvotes here and I know it’s a rational one I should be paying attention to.
Things work, but they feel entitled to forcing Apple to dedicate their resources to offering the same experience to people who don’t do business with Apple.
Forcing a business to operate better with another competitor for no benefit of their own is a dangerous precedent to set.
