Unfortunately this is an unpopular opinion and the other comments in the thread prove the average person thinks a nuclear power plant produces deadly products. It is literally thousands of times better for the environment than coal and gas plants. Replacing all coal and gas plants with nuclear energy would have an immediate positive impact on the environment. We also don’t need to keep them forever. Eventually they’d be replaced with renewables.
A nuclear power plant does produce deadly products. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-waste-is-piling-up-does-the-u-s-have-a-plan/
A nuclear fusion power plant (up and coming) would produce zero net, but the energy needed is not yet sustainable. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-repeat-nuclear-fusion-breakthrough-in-a-step-toward-more-clean-energy-180982683/
However, I am not a professional, just a mere student. I think I’d agree that nuclear power overall, would be better now than coal or gas, but would be worse in the long run due to the residual pollution.
A nuclear power plant does produce deadly products.
Those potentially deadly products can be stored in a safe way. Your link doesn’t even claim that it’s actively killing people. They claim that it’s costly to build geologic repositories, and once they’re built you don’t need more for a long time. Meanwhile coal power plants are directly putting deadly waste into people’s lungs.
Take a look at this bar chart: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-from-energy-production-per-twh
Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17876910/
Nuclear waste is a solved problem, and it has been solved for a long time.
It can also be reprocessed to further reduce the waste amounts:
.
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Eventually they’d be replaced with renewables.
And what if instead you used that decade+ and those $B’s to just build out renewables and storage? You’d make a difference faster, get better/faster return on your Investment, have a more stable grid, and the operating cost would make your investment continue paying off more for the life of the technology
There are plenty of environmentalists with binary thought patterns. If they can’t have the perfect system now, they’d rather let it all burn.
Not limited to environmentalists
glares at Lemmy doomers, vote splitters, and “revolutionaries”
Ice free Arctic by 2025
“Yeah we can probably still pull out of this nose dive by consuming MORE power”
- The utterly deranged.
mortality rate in deaths per thousand terawatt hour
if you disagree with OP, do some research and understand that you have been propogandized
I am 100% supportive of nuclear and still disagree with OP. Not supporting nuclear does NOT automatically mean you are not an environmentalist. That is just beyond stupid to me.
ok but i think there’s a big distinction between “not supporting” and being anti-nuclear energy, which is what OP actually said.
I disagree. I think it’s a small, nitpicky distinction. OP made his meaning clear.
From your link:
How many lives were lost in these accidents?
So they are just looking at deaths from nuclear accidents, and not construction or mining? You would have to do the same for the others. What kind of wind and solar “accidents” are there (excluding construction and mining)? Was the sun or wind too powerful one day?
You’re going to have to do better than that. Nuclear plants are guarded by barbed wire and guys with guns. Wind turbines are guarded by sheep. The solar panels on your roof are guarded by squirrels and crows. It’s pretty obvious which one is more dangerous.
You’re going to have to do better than that.
No I’m not. You are moving the goalposts. The source of the article I linked specifically speaks to mortalities from accidents and air pollution. Asking that statistic to do overtime and somehow speak to mining fatalities is whataboutism and totally ignores that coal mining has exactly the same problem. Mining fatalities are significant and not to be ignored, but to cite them as a reason to prefer coal over uranium is foolish.
It’s pretty obvious which one is more dangerous.
Self-reporting that you didn’t even read the article lol. The cited graphic clearly indicates that more than 4x as many individuals have died from rooftop solar accidents, such as electricution and falls than have died from nuclear power, per unit of energy. Statistics like “look who is guarding the power source” are obscenely unfit to describe the situation in comparison to raw numbers of human deaths.
4x as many individuals have died from rooftop solar accidents, such as electricution and falls
Those are from installation and construction. Your statistic doesn’t include construction deaths for nuclear plants. So the metric is biased. People fall doing any type of construction, including nuclear plants and solar panels.
Also, construction of solar panels has more deaths because of the workers involved. The “construction team” adding panels to your house may be just two guys on meth. If the same two guys worked on a nuclear plant, they would have equally high fatalities. If you used the construction workers from a nuclear plant to do a basic home solar panel installation, it would virtually eliminate fatalities due to better safety.
You can’t prove your point with flawed metrics, no matter how many times you repeat yourself. Nuclear plants are expensive and require constant maintenance. Solar panels are literally mounted on top of elementary schools. They’re cheap and easy to put up and take down. Wind turbines need a little more maintenance and construction but they are also simple compared to nuclear plants. These are facts.
Also, construction of solar panels has more deaths because of the workers involved. The “construction team” adding panels to your house may be just two guys on meth. If the same two guys worked on a nuclear plant, they would have equally high fatalities. If you used the construction workers from a nuclear plant to do a basic home solar panel installation, it would virtually eliminate fatalities due to better safety.
Even if every construction worker was hopped up on whatever you can imagine, it wouldn’t even matter.
It takes 2 workers to install 10 kW in solar panels that (might) last 15 years. That’s 75 kW-years of energy per construction worker.
It takes 1200 construction workers to build a 1000 MW reactor which will operate for (at least) 50 years. That’s about 42 MW-years per construction worker, or 42000 kW-years per construction worker.
Nuclear construction could have over 500x the accident rate of rooftop solar installation and still be safer. Try again.
You linked an article about how hard it is to find nuclear plant construction workers, and you think it’s a point in their favor?
Direct employment for a single unit 1,000 MW advanced light water reactor during site preparation and construction at any point in time for 10 years is around 1,200 professional and construction staff, or about 12,000 labor years, the study shows.
You’re comparing 10 years of construction to build a nuclear plant with one day of putting up some solar panels. And you’re amazed that 10 years of work is more productive?
When you divide by the 10 years of construction you get:
Nuclear plant: (1,000,000 kW x 50 years) / (1,200 workers x 10 years) = 4,167 kW / worker
Solar panels: (10 kW x 15 years x 365 days per year) / (2 workers x 1 day) = 27,375 kW / worker
Looks like you’re completely wrong. I don’t know why you’d compare it this way, but it’s definitely more efficient to install solar panels.
That’s fair: construction workers aren’t magically able to construct more than one reactor over those 10 years. It was late at night and I also lost track of the original point of this whole thread. The study cherry-picked rooftop solar, as opposed to utility solar, in order to prove a point. Nuclear power is safe. Fossil fuels are not safe.
the other account whom i blocked is still also totally ignoring that someone has to build the solar panels. it’s not like two (apparently drugged up) roofing dudes just pull some solar cells off the solar cell tree and slap them on a roof; there’s probably hundreds to thousands of man hours going into producing those.
id look into the math against the nuclear plant example if i thought it mattered. but compare stupid numbers and ya get a stupid answers yknow?
lol your meth comment made me lose all interest in this conversation. that was gross. im blocking you and standing by my words until someone who can actually cite a stat in good faith comes through, because i have based all my arguments off the best reasearch i can find and you have provided nothing but baseless assertions. take care ❤️
For other people reading this: yes, roofers take meth. I don’t advocate doing roofing work on meth (or meth in general), but they do it. It’s reality.
Reality is more than just numbers on a page. If anyone has fatality stats for different energy generation methods that stand up to mild scrutiny, please post them.
Logical fallacy: “you can’t claim to support $GENERAL_AREA and be anti-$MY_SPECIFIC_THING at the same time “? I’m sure there’s a name for that type of fallacy
No True Scotsman: defending an ingroup by excluding members that don’t agree with a particular stance. A subset of the Appeal to Purity fallacy, which argues that someone doesn’t do enough or have enough of some attribute to be included in a group. Other examples (deliberately inflammatory to cause a knee-jerk reaction to show how easy it is to fall into these things) would be “You can’t be a good person and support Donald Trump for Persident” or “You can’t support Palestine and still vote for Biden.”
I don’t agree with OPs statement, but I do agree with their sentiment. Nuclear energy is one of the best options available from an environmental standpoint to meet our baseline energy needs and supplement grids using non-persistant renewable loke wind and solar.
Thanks. I like to think I’m an advocate for the environment but disagree with both the statement and the intent.
Nuclear fission has some nice properties we could use, but as an ideal. However the industry has also demonstrated it to be expensive and too long to build. It’s not practical
Renewables have some weaknesses we don’t entirely know how to fill yet. Storage is in infancy: great for stabilization but still trying to grow. However we’re not at the point where those weaknesses matter yet. The fastest and cheapest approach is to build out renewables and storage as much as possible, while continuing to develop more scalable storage or Fusion, or figure out how to make fission practical again, or simply how to minimize use of gas peaker plants
How high a percentage of renewables can we get, with current storage technology and still have a reliable grid? Let’s find out, plus that’s the amount of time where we need to decide on a more complete answer. We’re (US) not even close to that point, and easily have more than a decade at current rates before we do.
Edit: another answer is we no longer have time for nuclear. Given the history of how long it takes to build nuclear power plants, and our current emissions/climate change, we can’t afford to wait the decades it would take to build those out. Renewables can make an impact immediately
There will be some breakthrough that makes it practical, I think.
Maybe, and we should certainly continue to look for that breakthrough. However, renewables can be built out now, are lowest cost, most immediate impact: we need to be building these out as fast as possible
At some point we’ll have diminishing returns with stability and might change our approach, but let’s get to that point as fast as we cab
I mostly agree but it’s also important to look at updating the grid so power can be moved around using high voltage DC transmission.
We’ve got reliable solar in the Southern US, and massive potential for wind offshore and in the prairie states. If we can route power to where it’s needed that decreases the need to store it.
We’re running into that up in the northeast too. Massachusetts had big plans to buy Canadian hydro, but can’t get the transmission lines built to get it here
yeah. OP’s title sucks but the general gist is true, that making such a claim is either hypocritical or uninformed, maybe both.
I’m not sure if that’s an unpopular opinion so much as a completely incorrect one.
The simple truth is that nuclear is fucking expensive and takes a long time to build.
Renewables and storage are much cheaper and take way less time to start producing energy.
Given this, why would you be in favor of nuclear? Please don’t try and tell me about base load (not needed), SMRs (even more expensive) or fusion (not going to happen in our lifetimes)
Given this, why would you be in favor of nuclear? Please don’t try and tell me about base load (not needed), SMRs (even more expensive) or fusion (not going to happen in our lifetimes)
Peak-load scaling. The major advantage that fossil fuel generators have is that you can spin them up faster to react to higher demand. You can’t do that with solar or wind, but you can with nuclear.
If we had grid-scale storage solutions, dealing with peak load would be easier but it’s still more cost effective to build pumped hydro storage than large battery arrays. Most electric grids have to produce electricity on-demand which means they have to be highly responsive.
We don’t have good grid-scale storage yet. We need demand-responsive energy production. Fission is better than burning coal.
You can’t do that with solar or wind, but you can with nuclear.
That’s why I said renewables and storage. There are lots of storage technologies such as pumped hydro and various kinds of battery that can react very quickly to increased demand. You categorically cannot do that with nuclear, where did you learn this?
Firstly, nuclear needs to run 24/7 as it’s not economically feasible to do anything else given how much these things cost. Secondly, you’re still heating water to create steam to drive turbines to generate electricity. All of that takes time to ramp up and means that nuclear is not used to generate in response to increased demand.
[…] react very quickly to increased demand. You categorically cannot do that with nuclear, where did you learn this?
This is not correct.
A Brief Survey of Load-Following Capabilities in Modern Nuclear Power Plants
Load-following NPPs in France claim power output ramps as much as 5%/min if necessary, though typical ramps are kept below 1.5%/min.
Certain French NPPs routinely decrease power output 50% at night.
It’s true that load-following is mostly not done with nuclear in the US, but this is policy/common practice/habit, not a technical limitation of nuclear power plants.
Also, I mentioned pumped hydro storage to point out specifically that battery technology really isn’t effective enough yet. It still doesn’t scale well, it’s too expensive for large grids.
thanks for sharing this!
hilarious to see the other guy doubling down even after you cited an actual source.
This is not correct.
It is, you just proved it yourself:
“typical ramps are kept below 1.5%/min.”
Compare that with batteries or pumped hydro.
That’s plenty fast enough for a power grid.
1.5% of 900MW is 13.5MW. That’s plenty of power output scaling per minute.
I think you’re getting peaker plants, e.g gas fired confused with load following.
Nuclear plants are not used as peaker plants. you incorrectly stated that they are.
It’s a shame that you’re being voted down here, even though your points are actually more on the factual side. Well, that’s probably the fate of those who “dare” to say something against nuclear. Even if everyone else demonstrably doesn’t have a clue about the subject: They’re still bashing it. It’s just good that downvotes on Lemmy don’t really matter.
Yes, but your assertion that renewable is cheaper completely ignored the cost of grid scale energy storage suitable to remove fossil fuel generation.
No, it’s cheaper than new nuclear with storage included.
Your statement disagrees with what I could turn up on duckduckgo. Can you provide your sources, I’m not a subject matter expert.
Sure:
“Later this month the LA Board of Water and Power Commissioners is expected to approve a 25-year contract that will serve 7 percent of the city’s electricity demand at 1.997¢/kwh for solar energy and 1.3¢ for power from batteries. … Conventional nuclear often benefits from optimistic estimates in the range of 12¢/kwh.”
I mean, it’s speculation. Current estimated completion is November this year, and the battery power price was already raised to 4c in 2020 estimated https://www.capdyn.com/news/capital-dynamics-and-8minute-solar-energy-partner-on-breakthrough-400mwac-eland/
This would still be cheaper than nuclear. But it’s not a true comparison. I am asking the cost to replace fossil generation. Which means some degrees of over provisioning and redundancy. The bank of America paints a very different picture in its 2023 report (https://advisoranalyst.com/2023/05/11/bofa-the-nuclear-necessity.html/) but I hardly trust them.
Either way your evidence from anecdote makes it clear you have as little understanding as I do. So I am still none the wiser if solar + generation is a solution today that makes nuclear irrelevant. If it’s not we can’t just keep burning coal till it is though. People have been saying for 30 years let’s just use renewables. But the world would look very different today if we had transition to nuclear energy back then.
To be fair, solar and wind are dependent on wind availability and solar availability year-round. Nuclear is buildable nearly anywhere. There are a lot of places other options aren’t as possible or efficient.
Nuclear is buildable nearly anywhere
It’s really not. It needs a reliable water source for a start.
Small scale reactors with stirling generators can power neighborhoods with simple air cooling.
Do you have any examples of them in operation, hooked up to a grid? How much does the energy they produce cost?
Even large scale nuclear plants are not economically viable without huge subsidies. Small scale reactors are even less cost effective. I haven’t really seen any of them “in the wild” except for research reactors or something like that.
Oh, I know. Making a wild claim about SMRs and then running for the hills when asked for evidence is pretty standard around here.
Yeah, unfortunately.
BTW, do you work in the field or something? Cause you sound kinda knowledgeable.
nuclear is fucking expensive and takes a long time to build
So what? Cost is relative to supply, demand, and political willpower. Also, I suspect it’s much cheaper than carbon recapture.
Given this, why would you be in favor of nuclear?
I think you’ve lost the point entirely. The question is “what do we need to effectively generate electricity without fossil fuels?” Nuclear is one such answer. Heaven forbid we encourage the development of more than one thing at a time.
Cost is relative to supply, demand, and political willpower.
Cost is cost and with new nuclear you can add on a fair chunk to whatever amount is quoted because they often go way over budget.
Given renewables and storage is cheaper, why would you want to piss money away?
Heaven forbid we encourage the development of more than one thing at a time.
We’re been developing nuclear for 70 years. In that time it’s not got cheaper, in fact the opposite has happened. Time to let go.
Cost is cost … [in 70 years] it’s not got cheaper, in fact the opposite has happened.
I suppose you must still think a loaf of bread still costs the same it did 70 years ago, too. Prices are malleable thanks to the free market … and government subsidies. Why would anyone be so anti-nuclear when it’s another valuable tool for displacing fossil fuels? Are you shilling for the oil and gas industry?
Are you shilling for the oil and gas industry?
There it is.
If I was a fossil fuel lobbyist I’d be pushing new nuclear hard. I could argue that we should continue to burn coal and gas while we make the leap to nuclear … in 10-15 year’s time. No, let’s make that 20 years of more environmental destruction.
Hey, wait. Are you shilling for the fossil fuel industry?
No, let’s make that 20 years of more environmental destruction.
Okay, hold up. Just take a minute here to breathe. Nobody’s arguing against renewables. They, just like nuclear power, are a part of a healthy, diverse mix of technologies which will help displace fossil fuels. That’s the whole point: get rid of fossil fuels where we can in whatever way we can.
make the leap to nuclear … in 10-15 year’s time
We already did. 70 years ago. Then the fossil fuel industry successfully replaced existing nuclear generators with coal-fired plants.
If I was a fossil fuel lobbyist I’d be pushing new nuclear hard.
Are you seriously arguing that fossil fuel lobbyists do the exact opposite of what fossil fuel lobbyists have been recorded doing? In other words, are you trying to argue for a proven falsehood?
If so, we have a term for that: alternative facts. Go try and deceive someone else.
All your sophistry, ignorance, and rudeness aside, you’ve yet to make a single compelling argument for nuclear.
I think we’re done here.
I think we’re done here.
On that we can agree.
I don’t like it, but I’ll have to go along with it
Presumably you mean “Rufen Sie ein Taxi bitte sonst verpass’ ich meinen Flug”?
New Zealand says you can.
This opinion is true, unpopular and truly unpolular.
Bro this is “Unpopular Opinion” not “Unpopular Opinion and also pretend it’s 1979”
Nicely done OP. This is the best post I’ve seen on this community on lemmy.
Also amusing how many ignorant and uneducated people are calling your take/nuclear energy “stupid” simply because they don’t understand it.
“Nuclear = bad” is about as far as their level of thinking goes…
literally! incredible work OP in giving this unworthy, unmoderated troll den of a community some real content. 😼
edit: sorry if this sounded like sarcasm i do mean to compliment OP with this comment lol.
Nuclear waste = bad because we don’t currently have a proper way to dispose of it. We bury it in a container with hopes that we’ll find a way in the future.
IIRC we have 2 solutions 1 is what we currently use and the second is more or less the best but a tad expensive so we don’t. (This is for the highly radioactive waste that has long decay and makes up about 1-3% of waste, the stuff we “worry” about)
The former is we mix the radioactive material with glass, ceramic, and concrete into large pieces and just leave em. Standing next to them you actually receive more radiation from the sun and they cannot be recovered into usable material because of how they are melted and mixed together.
The latter is more or less the same, but we dig, on site, an L shaped bore into the ground a long way into the earths crust where it can be stored indefinitely, is not recoverable, and can keep a site running for it’s entire lifetime without filling the hole. You then fill in the hole at end of life and done. No harm to people, environment, or earth. Basically a DGR (Deep Geological Repository)
And we can think about a 3rd and actually ship the materials in rockets and space them. Throwing them beyond Earth SOI would prevent accumulating garbage in orbit
That’s a lot of risk of spreading high-level radioactive materials across large areas of earth. Rockets explode sometimes, and even the RTGs many probes use required special attention to rocket reliability. Moving tonnes of material like that wouod be an inevitable disaster with current rocket reliability and abort systems.
Or we could put it in a hole.
i don’t know if you checked in on what we do with excess matter from carbon fuels?
you are breathing it in right now 😌🤤😌
It’s not that this is an unpopular opinion, but rather that it’s a dumb opinion. You’re defining things one way and someone else can define them a different way. You can both define what an environmentalist is differently and that will affect the result of your question. If you’re insisting that you own the definition of an “environmentalist” then you’re being dumb.
In fact, I agree with the unstated premise of your statement. I think the risks of nuclear waste and a nuclear meltdown are much less than the risks of global warming and therefore nuclear power is good for the environment. However it is also a perfectly valid opinion that we should just reduce our energy usage and reduce global warming in that manner. I think it’s unrealistic, but it’s possible if we had the desire to do that as a collective. It is a valid opinion to be on that side of the fence. I think it’s the less pragmatic approach, but I’ve known many people who are hippy environmentalists and it’s still a valid position.
You can claim anything you want.
Also, nuclear power has a huge environmental impact, it just offsets that impact by generating a fuckton of electricity.
In an idea world, we would look to make existing devices more efficient, and use them more responsibly rather than just generate more power to offset those losses.
I don’t know enough about the technology to have strong opinions on this. I was opposed to nuclear because I thought, what would we do with all the nuclear waste?
And then somebody pointed out to me that apparently all the nuclear waste product in the world could fit into the area the size of one football field. Okay, I thought, that doesn’t seem too hard to keep contained.
But then I got to thinking about it and that can’t possibly make any sense. It’s not just the spent nuclear material, it’s miles of radioactive plumbing, tons of hardware, sheet metal, asbestos (still?), etc., all irradiated, all toxic to life. So now I’m on the fence again.
could fit into the area the size of one football field.
The problem with that is that they haven’t even managed to responsibly handle even that.
All of the irradiated equipment can’t leach into groundwater though, and it’s never as radioactive as the fuel itself. It’s not safe to dump in a normal landfill obviously, but simply burying it usually fine.
what good things for the environment happened around chernobyl when the nuclear reactor there overheated? An area of 20 miles in any direction of the power station will be uninhabitable for at least 300 years, and potentially much longer.
deleted by creator
This is not a good argument against nuclear power. The Chernobyl exclusion zone is actually doing incredibly well on biodiversity metrics specifically because humans don’t go there at all. The real issues with nuclear power are how long it takes to set up, sourcing the fuel, and the fact that while containing the waste is not really that big a problem it is one that faces enormous political hurdles in many places
Actually funny you mention that. Initially it was bad, but as time has gone on it’s arguable that the Chernobyl exclusion zone has actually helped the ecosystem in the area because humans aren’t around. https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/story/how-chernobyl-has-become-unexpected-haven-wildlife
Also, nuclear reactors aren’t built that way anymore, and all the RBMK nuclear reactors have been fixed so they aren’t able to experience that again.
It’s sad to see the number of comments here that still seem to be stuck in the misguided 80’s/90’s/00’s mindset of ‘nuclear power in real life is just as depicted in The Simpsons.’
Here, let the german Deputy of the Federal Chancellor and Federal Minister for Economic Affairs and Climate Protection shut you up. Starts at 24:56.
But to catch some downvotes as well:
You can’t claim to be an environmentalist and not be vegan at the same time
Thats still unpopular but at least it’s true. :)
So have a few hens out back eating all the ticks in the yard and supplying me with eggs is hurting the environment in a way that is terrible? I’d have to look more into that, but really they surely can’t be as gaseous as cows.
I’ve heard of a spherical cow, but a gaseous cow is new to me :)
I used to have them when I lived in an area that didn’t care. Was hoping to go back to having them when I retire one day. Didn’t expect to hear they were a bad choice. Thanks for the response
I don’t speak German. What’s he saying there?
My English isn’t good enough to translate it all in detail, but these are the basics:
Germany shut down all nuclear power plants but 3, which will shut down soon. So we will be nuclear free in the future, no going back from there. Then he talks about the nuclear power plants in France, which are all ailing and will be extremely expensive to repair (at least 1 billion euros per power plant). They are only still working because they belong to the state, otherwise they would have been insolvent long ago. A newly planned nuclear power plant is already so expensive to plan that most investors have backed out. If this power plant is ever built, it will supply the most expensive electricity ever produced in Europe.
