honestly we should have collectively realized way earlier that putting all the useful, readable, un-touched-by-SEO help content for basically every niche hobby fandom and ideology in the hands of one for-profit entity was not very wisdom-pilled of us
I agree, but I also have serious concerns about this being the replacement strategy. It could be because of my ignorance of how this all works though. Like many of you, I am new and here because of the reddexodus.
These servers are going to cost money, and for many of them the money will run out. Is there a function to preserve the collective content of an entire server once it goes dark? I know that you can migrate your own account to another server, but what happens to everything Google has indexed at Lemmy.world if the worst happens? Is it all just dead links? What if many of the users do not migrate? Is it just gone?
I am concerned that in the current state we are setting up to burn everything that loses a couple admins or becomes too old to economically host.
Before reddit removed them most of this compiled knowledge was in the subreddit wikis. I honestly believe a return to communities with wikis is the long term replacement.
I was on a mastodon server and the owner decided it was not worth his money to keep running. He did not inform anyone on the server or allow any account backups and all was lost.
With federated services, I feel like it’s somewhat important to get to know the admins of the server you use. You don’t have to be best friends, but at least know their name, motivation for running the server, and how it’s funded.
In practice the content is distributed to all the other servers, so people who have been reading it before will still be able to on their own instance, but you’re right the indexed domain is gone and so are the results in Google.
But there is one difference, one instance of lemmy only stores a very small fraction of the content. And it’s much easier to fuck up one reddit compared to fuck up thousands of lemmy instances simultaneously. So if one instance goes down, the rest of the fediverse is still up and running.
This one point about the fediverse that I find essential to consider when thinking about reliability. Distributed ownership of servers drastically decreases the chances of the fediverse as a whole going down (not considering differences in the reliability of individual servers). But each individual server has a much higher chance of going down than say an individual subreddit. This is a subject I’d very much like to understand better, but it’s clear it has implications to the chance of any given post getting lost.
These are certainly possibilities! It’s happened elsewhere in the Fediverse… but already we can export most of our data and migrate to a different instance. Getting these base features right is important before enhancing their functionality. Planning for the future is important too. So far I’ve been impressed by Lemmy, though it’s not nearly as portable as Mastodon or Calckey or Pleroma etc. Part of that is that in Lemmy/kbin we don’t follow other users… we subscribe to groups (subs/communities/magazines).
Still, with the nature of ActivityPub, it’s inevitable that migration tools for Reddit-like federated apps will get built quick-like
I think it’s a fair concern. We’ve seen other parts of the fediverse successfully implement crowd sourced funding via patron and similar to keep mastodon servers running and I suspect if Lemmy remains “the place to be” admins will have reasonable success with a similar model. Lemmy is super efficient and can support 100s of users on a single box so I think if 1% of users paid like $5 a month you could probably still support 99% of users “for free”.
If we have communities sync’ed on multiple instances we can solve that. At first this was my presumption for how the federation works, but I then learned /c/Pennsylvania on one instance is helpful local news and on another its right-wing propaganda.
I’m sorry, but clearly you have not looked for niche information on Google for a while now. Lots of links end in dead ones, particularly when I am looking for vehicle information on older models.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say, we shouldn’t be concerned because this problem already happened?
A lot niche older vehicle information, if it wasn’t hosted on Reddit, was often on forums funded by enthusiasts, which eventually ran out of money and no longer exist. This is exactly the problem that I’m concerned about. Particularly so if a certain community balloons in popularity and an admin nukes it to keep the server costs under control for the other members.
Completely what I’m saying, but to add on it is not just forums. With the new web, I’ve hit a deadend on many OEM websites as well, and part websites, and others. I’m sure cell phone and computer information is similar, in fact after trying to research a power supply for my old prebuilt I know it’s a fight.
some people have, but whenever you’d mention it, you’d be met with “lol take the tinfoil hat off”, “but we’re already using [for-profit platform] why would we move when everyone’s here” and “but it’s haaaaaaard”.
I’ve said it numerous times over the years, the Internet has been centralizing rapidly and it benefits none of us.
In 2005 you’d wander around, going from peoples’ personal pages to forums to whatever else people linked. In 2015 half of those websites were dead because everyone got their content on reddit anyway.
we can still easily fall into this trap if there isn’t a good way to migrate communities between instances. And even if we could just take /c/[email protected] and move the whole thing to /c/[email protected] or something, that would still break all the indexers’ links
I just can’t agree more with you. Like wow this reddit blackout has truthfully opened my eyes to the massive, giant and incredibly amount of useful information that is currently resting on reddit servers.
Yep. I blog infrequently but I’ve said a few times in my posts, I am writing this article because I need to remember the steps to do this weird niche thing in case something breaks in the future. If it happens to help someone else out, great.
One thing the FOSS world really needs to get on right now is some form of search engine accessible distributed content archival. We need a way to store useful content from the past in a way that no one individual or group of individuals is capable of deleting it.
honestly we should have collectively realized way earlier that putting all the useful, readable, un-touched-by-SEO help content for basically every niche hobby fandom and ideology in the hands of one for-profit entity was not very wisdom-pilled of us
I agree, but I also have serious concerns about this being the replacement strategy. It could be because of my ignorance of how this all works though. Like many of you, I am new and here because of the reddexodus.
These servers are going to cost money, and for many of them the money will run out. Is there a function to preserve the collective content of an entire server once it goes dark? I know that you can migrate your own account to another server, but what happens to everything Google has indexed at Lemmy.world if the worst happens? Is it all just dead links? What if many of the users do not migrate? Is it just gone?
I am concerned that in the current state we are setting up to burn everything that loses a couple admins or becomes too old to economically host.
Before reddit removed them most of this compiled knowledge was in the subreddit wikis. I honestly believe a return to communities with wikis is the long term replacement.
I was on a mastodon server and the owner decided it was not worth his money to keep running. He did not inform anyone on the server or allow any account backups and all was lost.
With federated services, I feel like it’s somewhat important to get to know the admins of the server you use. You don’t have to be best friends, but at least know their name, motivation for running the server, and how it’s funded.
In practice the content is distributed to all the other servers, so people who have been reading it before will still be able to on their own instance, but you’re right the indexed domain is gone and so are the results in Google.
But there is one difference, one instance of lemmy only stores a very small fraction of the content. And it’s much easier to fuck up one reddit compared to fuck up thousands of lemmy instances simultaneously. So if one instance goes down, the rest of the fediverse is still up and running.
This one point about the fediverse that I find essential to consider when thinking about reliability. Distributed ownership of servers drastically decreases the chances of the fediverse as a whole going down (not considering differences in the reliability of individual servers). But each individual server has a much higher chance of going down than say an individual subreddit. This is a subject I’d very much like to understand better, but it’s clear it has implications to the chance of any given post getting lost.
These are certainly possibilities! It’s happened elsewhere in the Fediverse… but already we can export most of our data and migrate to a different instance. Getting these base features right is important before enhancing their functionality. Planning for the future is important too. So far I’ve been impressed by Lemmy, though it’s not nearly as portable as Mastodon or Calckey or Pleroma etc. Part of that is that in Lemmy/kbin we don’t follow other users… we subscribe to groups (subs/communities/magazines).
Still, with the nature of ActivityPub, it’s inevitable that migration tools for Reddit-like federated apps will get built quick-like
deleted by creator
Makes a lot of sense, especially due to the drama earlier on with Imgur and its image policy
I think it’s a fair concern. We’ve seen other parts of the fediverse successfully implement crowd sourced funding via patron and similar to keep mastodon servers running and I suspect if Lemmy remains “the place to be” admins will have reasonable success with a similar model. Lemmy is super efficient and can support 100s of users on a single box so I think if 1% of users paid like $5 a month you could probably still support 99% of users “for free”.
If we have communities sync’ed on multiple instances we can solve that. At first this was my presumption for how the federation works, but I then learned /c/Pennsylvania on one instance is helpful local news and on another its right-wing propaganda.
I’m sorry, but clearly you have not looked for niche information on Google for a while now. Lots of links end in dead ones, particularly when I am looking for vehicle information on older models.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say, we shouldn’t be concerned because this problem already happened?
A lot niche older vehicle information, if it wasn’t hosted on Reddit, was often on forums funded by enthusiasts, which eventually ran out of money and no longer exist. This is exactly the problem that I’m concerned about. Particularly so if a certain community balloons in popularity and an admin nukes it to keep the server costs under control for the other members.
Completely what I’m saying, but to add on it is not just forums. With the new web, I’ve hit a deadend on many OEM websites as well, and part websites, and others. I’m sure cell phone and computer information is similar, in fact after trying to research a power supply for my old prebuilt I know it’s a fight.
some people have, but whenever you’d mention it, you’d be met with “lol take the tinfoil hat off”, “but we’re already using [for-profit platform] why would we move when everyone’s here” and “but it’s haaaaaaard”.
Source: https://xkcd.com/743/
The fact that the alt-text directly mentions Diaspora is more than amusing in this context
Hey! I’m not probably autistic! I’m definitely autistic, there’s a difference!
Had to zoom in to find out why it is suddenly year 200. There is a tiny 1 in there.
Yes. When everyone enters info on corporate sites, sooner or later they’ll decide to monetize it.
Reddit going evil on charges and showing their colours in the AMA has been a wake up.
I’ve said it numerous times over the years, the Internet has been centralizing rapidly and it benefits none of us.
In 2005 you’d wander around, going from peoples’ personal pages to forums to whatever else people linked. In 2015 half of those websites were dead because everyone got their content on reddit anyway.
we can still easily fall into this trap if there isn’t a good way to migrate communities between instances. And even if we could just take /c/[email protected] and move the whole thing to /c/[email protected] or something, that would still break all the indexers’ links
What we really need is some sort of torrent-like system for this content with something equivalent to magnet links.
Sounds like you’re describing ipfs :D
https://ipfs.tech/#how
I love the idea of IPFS, but every time I’ve tried to use it, it has always been very slow.
amusingly another chicken egg problem. More chickens, faster the eggs. Wait that metaphor works!
I just can’t agree more with you. Like wow this reddit blackout has truthfully opened my eyes to the massive, giant and incredibly amount of useful information that is currently resting on reddit servers.
Need some bots to start porting all those posts over to Lemmy lol.
That is the main reason why I’ve been blogging on my own website since 2004 https://paradies.jeena.net/weblog/2004/apr/ersteintrag (and switched to English in 2010 https://jeena.net/posts )
Yep. I blog infrequently but I’ve said a few times in my posts, I am writing this article because I need to remember the steps to do this weird niche thing in case something breaks in the future. If it happens to help someone else out, great.
One thing the FOSS world really needs to get on right now is some form of search engine accessible distributed content archival. We need a way to store useful content from the past in a way that no one individual or group of individuals is capable of deleting it.
I believe archive.org fits the definition
is there a tool that makes searching archive.org reddit (etc) posts easier?
I’m not aware of such tool, unfortunately