honestly we should have collectively realized way earlier that putting all the useful, readable, un-touched-by-SEO help content for basically every niche hobby fandom and ideology in the hands of one for-profit entity was not very wisdom-pilled of us
I agree, but I also have serious concerns about this being the replacement strategy. It could be because of my ignorance of how this all works though. Like many of you, I am new and here because of the reddexodus.
These servers are going to cost money, and for many of them the money will run out. Is there a function to preserve the collective content of an entire server once it goes dark? I know that you can migrate your own account to another server, but what happens to everything Google has indexed at Lemmy.world if the worst happens? Is it all just dead links? What if many of the users do not migrate? Is it just gone?
I am concerned that in the current state we are setting up to burn everything that loses a couple admins or becomes too old to economically host.
Before reddit removed them most of this compiled knowledge was in the subreddit wikis. I honestly believe a return to communities with wikis is the long term replacement.
I was on a mastodon server and the owner decided it was not worth his money to keep running. He did not inform anyone on the server or allow any account backups and all was lost.
With federated services, I feel like it’s somewhat important to get to know the admins of the server you use. You don’t have to be best friends, but at least know their name, motivation for running the server, and how it’s funded.
In practice the content is distributed to all the other servers, so people who have been reading it before will still be able to on their own instance, but you’re right the indexed domain is gone and so are the results in Google.
But there is one difference, one instance of lemmy only stores a very small fraction of the content. And it’s much easier to fuck up one reddit compared to fuck up thousands of lemmy instances simultaneously. So if one instance goes down, the rest of the fediverse is still up and running.
This one point about the fediverse that I find essential to consider when thinking about reliability. Distributed ownership of servers drastically decreases the chances of the fediverse as a whole going down (not considering differences in the reliability of individual servers). But each individual server has a much higher chance of going down than say an individual subreddit. This is a subject I’d very much like to understand better, but it’s clear it has implications to the chance of any given post getting lost.
These are certainly possibilities! It’s happened elsewhere in the Fediverse… but already we can export most of our data and migrate to a different instance. Getting these base features right is important before enhancing their functionality. Planning for the future is important too. So far I’ve been impressed by Lemmy, though it’s not nearly as portable as Mastodon or Calckey or Pleroma etc. Part of that is that in Lemmy/kbin we don’t follow other users… we subscribe to groups (subs/communities/magazines).
Still, with the nature of ActivityPub, it’s inevitable that migration tools for Reddit-like federated apps will get built quick-like
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Makes a lot of sense, especially due to the drama earlier on with Imgur and its image policy
I think it’s a fair concern. We’ve seen other parts of the fediverse successfully implement crowd sourced funding via patron and similar to keep mastodon servers running and I suspect if Lemmy remains “the place to be” admins will have reasonable success with a similar model. Lemmy is super efficient and can support 100s of users on a single box so I think if 1% of users paid like $5 a month you could probably still support 99% of users “for free”.
If we have communities sync’ed on multiple instances we can solve that. At first this was my presumption for how the federation works, but I then learned /c/Pennsylvania on one instance is helpful local news and on another its right-wing propaganda.
I’m sorry, but clearly you have not looked for niche information on Google for a while now. Lots of links end in dead ones, particularly when I am looking for vehicle information on older models.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say, we shouldn’t be concerned because this problem already happened?
A lot niche older vehicle information, if it wasn’t hosted on Reddit, was often on forums funded by enthusiasts, which eventually ran out of money and no longer exist. This is exactly the problem that I’m concerned about. Particularly so if a certain community balloons in popularity and an admin nukes it to keep the server costs under control for the other members.
Completely what I’m saying, but to add on it is not just forums. With the new web, I’ve hit a deadend on many OEM websites as well, and part websites, and others. I’m sure cell phone and computer information is similar, in fact after trying to research a power supply for my old prebuilt I know it’s a fight.
I’ve said it numerous times over the years, the Internet has been centralizing rapidly and it benefits none of us.
In 2005 you’d wander around, going from peoples’ personal pages to forums to whatever else people linked. In 2015 half of those websites were dead because everyone got their content on reddit anyway.
we should have collectively realized way earlier
some people have, but whenever you’d mention it, you’d be met with “lol take the tinfoil hat off”, “but we’re already using [for-profit platform] why would we move when everyone’s here” and “but it’s haaaaaaard”.
Source: https://xkcd.com/743/
The fact that the alt-text directly mentions Diaspora is more than amusing in this context
Hey! I’m not probably autistic! I’m definitely autistic, there’s a difference!
Had to zoom in to find out why it is suddenly year 200. There is a tiny 1 in there.
Yes. When everyone enters info on corporate sites, sooner or later they’ll decide to monetize it.
Reddit going evil on charges and showing their colours in the AMA has been a wake up.
we can still easily fall into this trap if there isn’t a good way to migrate communities between instances. And even if we could just take /c/[email protected] and move the whole thing to /c/[email protected] or something, that would still break all the indexers’ links
What we really need is some sort of torrent-like system for this content with something equivalent to magnet links.
Sounds like you’re describing ipfs :D
I love the idea of IPFS, but every time I’ve tried to use it, it has always been very slow.
amusingly another chicken egg problem. More chickens, faster the eggs. Wait that metaphor works!
I just can’t agree more with you. Like wow this reddit blackout has truthfully opened my eyes to the massive, giant and incredibly amount of useful information that is currently resting on reddit servers.
Need some bots to start porting all those posts over to Lemmy lol.
That is the main reason why I’ve been blogging on my own website since 2004 https://paradies.jeena.net/weblog/2004/apr/ersteintrag (and switched to English in 2010 https://jeena.net/posts )
Yep. I blog infrequently but I’ve said a few times in my posts, I am writing this article because I need to remember the steps to do this weird niche thing in case something breaks in the future. If it happens to help someone else out, great.
One thing the FOSS world really needs to get on right now is some form of search engine accessible distributed content archival. We need a way to store useful content from the past in a way that no one individual or group of individuals is capable of deleting it.
I believe archive.org fits the definition
is there a tool that makes searching archive.org reddit (etc) posts easier?
I’m not aware of such tool, unfortunately
Reddit actions are tragic for the web. I can’t even tell you how many times I searched something and typed Reddit at the end of the query. Not just because Reddit search SUCKS, but mostly because it’s a gold mine of information. Especially for technical stuff.
Your game crash? Reddit. Weird bug on your laptop? Reddit. Looking for a cool app? Reddit. Have a weird question? Reddit.
Reddit saved me countless hours and headache. I felt that yesterday when doing a search about something without even putting Reddit on it, kept bringing up Reddit links. I’d click on it without reading and end up on a locked sub because of the blackout.
It sucks but I hope it’s going to continue. But at the same time, I don’t see Reddit backing down. And even lf they do? I’m not going back. Because how dare you? Like… screw you for even trying to pull that crap on your users.
Agree, but I think that’s the point: this is the proof we have to switch to a different model. It will take time to replace Reddit as the huge information source it was (and to a certain extent still is), but I’m willing to hope it can happen.
Try using ChatGPT if you haven’t. Ive used Reddit in the past for a lot of troubleshooting, but ChatGPT is easier to get the answers I’m looking for unless I asked the question myself. But there’s no judgement from ChatGPT lol
Used chatgpt to rework my resume recently, holy shit that site is a godsend.
Though, take care to factcheck what you get from it; all it really is is just a word predictor, and it can be pretty good at confidently telling you absolute nonsense that sounds right
Definitely true, however my usage of it has been to troubleshoot code. I wouldn’t suggest using it for research purposes
Reddit is the web we built. And fuck u/spez decided to give it away for money.
I miss Aaron Swartz and the open web. Let’s rebuilt it again, on better foundations!
Am I the only one that’s noticed how reddit has been fucking with web crawlers? They insert newer comments into older posts so the crawlers pick up false results.
A few years back they started injecting a “related posts” box into pages. What that does is multiply the amount of results a crawler will pick up. But all those are false results. There’s only one true search result which is the original comment/post. Some times I find myself sifting though the search engine results to find the actual original post. The rest are completely worthless, off topic, reddit posts littering the search index.
I know all this blackout stuff hurts now. I see it as necessary for the platform to lose its status as the “front page of the internet”. Reddit turned evil a long time ago. It’s long past time it be deposed of.
I couldn’t understand how those changes back then crippling the user experience were “better” in any way, this explains a lot!
That explains why the search page quotes a comment that doesn’t exist on the post. That always confused me. It’s insane how dependent on searching with “reddit” appended on the end of the search term I am. I have qualms as to how this’ll bode for search engines if reddit loses interest or goes under.
Ohhh THAT was the issue?? I hated that…
100% agree
Had this happen today. Was searching for some programming related stuff and top pages are all inaccessible Reddit posts.
Hopefully it will help people realise that a profit motive being attached to everything is actually counterproductive societally.
Same. Had some things I needed to look up for my 3D printer and much of the results were inaccessible.
Was a pain.
Ditto, actually. The 3D printing communities I’ve seen here are just so much smaller.
About 4 people at work Monday discovered the blackouts and learned the reason from following Google results. I’d say that shows the effectiveness of the protest. That’s 4 individuals that I work with personally who wouldn’t have known otherwise about the api problem that now do. I can only imagine how many people are in that same boat.
Same. I found it funny though. Showed that if we tried we can cause some chaos
Same, but it’s just growing pains.
We should start rewriting posts in lemmy with the correct information.
Sad thing is most search engines suck/haven’t really indexed mostly anything in the fediverse. Wonder why
The fediverse is really not good for big companies. It cannot be monetized or controlled.
It’s obvious you know this, but we just need a search engine that’s tuned to search the fediverse.
Same with Pathfinder 2 questions.
This also highlights the problem with a lot of communities moving to Discord, which inevitably ends up as repositories for critical information, but can’t be indexed by Google. Reddit is still valuable as a problem solving resource, and I hope they fix this API fiasco.
I’m willing to bet the lack of api access going forward will make all reddit posts disappear from crawler results anyways. I’m no expert, but I imagine the crawler is picking up on all of the interconnected references to reddit that are all due to free api access. As soon as those connections disappear, so dies the value to the entire community. It will be just like the garbage results we get from every single source now. This is the path of neo digital feudalism.
API calls are almost always private between the caller and the endpoint (think telegram bots or mobile apps). There isn’t really a technically feasible way for a crawler to somehow “infer” any kind of knowledge of how api calls are being used unless the result has some kind of publically visible side effect (E. G. The program using the api is generating a web page and uploading it somewhere crawlable). Google et Al go by how many links from other pages to the page of interest exist (inbound links) and multiply by a smattering of other things like quality of keywords, length of content etc.
That said, if you’re implying that the api changes mean that:
- people are less likely to use reddit because they can’t access it via RIF/Apollo
- less useful content is added to the site to be indexed,
- fewer inbound links will be generated that point to existing posts
- pages stagnate and drop in ranking
That is a plausible concern.
fewer inbound links will be generated that point to existing posts
pages stagnate and drop in ranking
This is what I mean, the external references people had in the periphery will dry up. Like if I’m not using Infinity to generate better refined search results, now I don’t post the link to Stack Exchange, and this reference fails to cascade across various copy paste blog resources. Now the original reddit post is a dead end source with no external weighted reference value. It’s all of these advanced features implemented in the periphery using the free API that create the usefulness in the first place.
Searching reddit will be just like YouTube searches now. No matter what technical wording you use, you’ll never find technical references again. I can type the title of a video on YT verbatim and still won’t get the correct results, but I can log into an old account and find the content in my hundreds of playlists I kept as references. It is still there, it is still public.
Yeah that makes sense! I totally agree! Search is becoming pretty difficult these days!
The other thing is that Discord search is god awful. There’s absolutely no way to modify your search for better results, whether that’s to require something to appear exactly as typed, or to exclude certain results, it’s just you put in the words and hope you get the right thing. Sometimes that works out, but sometimes it will make the dumbest connections and render your search useless unless you want to trawl through pages of crap you don’t want. Like I’ve found out that Discord considers the words universal, universe, and university to be the same…
People rely far too heavily on reddit for public resources. Here’s hoping that changes now.
Google Search has been sucking for quite a long time.
“site:old.reddit.com” was just a temporary fix
Tacking “Reddit” onto search queries almost became a prerequisite. Never imagined I’d have to replace that with “-Reddit”.
It’s made researching a media centre setup very difficult this week…
Give it some time, people will get comfortable here, the revolution dust will settle an we will be adding ‘-Reddit “Lemmy”’ to search queries (fingers crossed!)
But how would this work with broader federation? Searching other instances like beehaw or kbin? We’ll needan new search optimization to search the fediverse more efficiently.
I guess google will just have to suck less if they want us to keep using it.
Before reddit removed them most of this compiled knowledge was in the subreddit wikis. I honestly believe a return to communities with wikis is the long term replacement.
Honestly, not a bad opinion, when the wikis were done well, they did have some extremely useful information. I wonder if we could do something like that in Lemmy…
That was my first thought - if reddit doesn’t want that feature, we’ll take it!
It would be interesting if Fediverse platforms made an external wiki for discoverability. A big shared community resource all in one place.
Yeah, the wikis came in clutch a lot of times for me. Really well done with how organized they were for the ones that had them.
Definitely saw this coming… can’t imagine what will happen if Stack Overflow pulls something similar. All WebDev/DevOps work will halt overnight.
I’ve been trying to put my issues/solutions in a personal blog or wiki, but there’s so much old info out there in sites like Reddit/SO/medium/etc, it’d be a huge loss when it goes away.
Maybe it really is time to get open sourced AI and bots to archive useful information so they don’t get monopolized.
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One thing that is designed to be future-proof is MarkDown, I’ve been taking profesional and personal notes and exporting important information from web pages to markdown and hosting it on my own PC for a while.
MarkDown it’s text based so you can have a huge amount of data with just a tiny bit of space. And it is easily translated/rendered as HTML. Apps like Logseq, Obsidian or Markor are good starts for managing huge vaults of information.
I’m thinking that whe should create a MarkDown community here.
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There’s plenty of software designed to store personal wikis and info in markdown, if you are interested checkout Obsidian, Logseq and Jopling (in that order for me)
We’re going to have to actually read official documentation instead of relying on some greybeard’s wisdom on SO 🥲
Well, at least stack overflow database dump is available.
At least with SO, they have historically put up dumps of all user data on archive.org (that stopped recently but it’s allegedly coming back). If something were to happen, at least the information would still be decently accessible, just not indexed as well.
This has been deeply frustrating, but since that’s the whole point, I support this collective inconvenience.
All in all it’s also a testament of how bad internet is now. All the information is concentrated in few sites that, if gone, gets lost.
Also, I find that basically every search result that isn’t reddit is sponsored content.
Search something real specific like “Best aftermarket injector coils for a 2009 Toyota Corolla” and you’re going to get 100% advertisements and listicles for search results, likely written by somebody who doesn’t know shit about cars.
Append “reddit” to that search, and you’ll be led to a post from a car mechanic giving their opinion on the matter. And, well, I do trust a random stranger on the internet more than I do an advertisement.
I think it’s more appropriate to say that internet searches in general had been getting worse over the last several years, but it just so happened to be the case that your answer could likely be found in a reddit thread.
GOOD!
For many people google (or whatever engine) was just a gateway to get informations on reddit. With all those sub reddits down at the moment, a lot of searches are really hard to get informations, because like it, or not, reddit is a big part of getting informations or opinions etc.
Ah yes, working as intended. It’s probably affecting people more than reddit themselves. Hope the content draught continues though.
