• Banrik@fedia.io
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    4 days ago

    I think on the mindset of what trek stands, bringing humanity together & tearing down divisions is really at the core. I think it’s completely fine to dissociate with elements of the media that seem to go contrary to that when you want to engage with something that pushes the idea of a positive future.

    • Stamets@lemmy.worldM
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      4 days ago

      I think it’s completely fine to dissociate with elements of the media that seem to go contrary to that when you want to engage with something that pushes the idea of a positive future.

      What elements? I’m begging you. I keep seeing people claim that the newer Treks go contrary to the older Treks but no one has ever been able to give me any examples of stuff that hasn’t already been done in Trek before. Stuff they either didn’t know about, forgot about, or purposefully ignored.

      • Banrik@fedia.io
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        4 days ago

        Answering everything with combat & lasers? Like I love a good kirk fight on a rock outside cali but give me a well written “we are stronger together speech” or some introspective or our differences make us stronger together, which I think most trek has been able to do.looking at kelvin trek or picard & saying no thanks to that I think is fine?

        • Stamets@lemmy.worldM
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          4 days ago

          but give me a well written “we are stronger together speech” or some introspective or our differences make us stronger together, which I think most trek has been able to do

          Dude. That was literally the resolution of the first season after everything that they had been through. The war was won with a speech.


          Season 1: Episode 15 - Will You Take My Hand?

          Beginning of Act 3:

          Burnham: Is this how Starfleet wins the war? Genocide?!

          Cornwell: You want to do this here? Fine. Terms of atrocity are convenient after the fact. The Klingons are on the verge of wiping out the Federation.

          Burnham: Yes. But ask yourself: Why did you put this mission in the hands of a Terran and why the secrecy? It’s because you know it’s not who we are.

          Cornwell: It very soon will be. We do not have the luxury of principles.

          Burnham: That is all we have, Admiral… A year ago, I stood alone. I believed that our survival was more important than our principles. I was wrong. Do we need a mutiny today to prove who we are?

          <Shots of the bridge crew looking with Burnham in solidarity before Acting Captain Saru stands up>

          Saru: We are Starfleet.


          Not enough? Same episode but later when they’re talking to L’rell.


          <Burnham and L’rell enter the shrine where the hydrobomb was planted by Georgiou>

          L’rell: What is this?

          Burnham: This is the place the Federation crushed the Klingons. We planted a bomb in the heart of your homeworld. Qo’noS will be destroyed.

          L’rell: You bring me here to gloat?

          Burnham: No. To offer you an alternative. Klingons respond to strength. Use the fate of Qo’noS to bend them to your will. Preserve your civilization rather than watch it be destroyed.

          L’rell: But… I am no one.

          Ash Tyler: You once told Voq that you didn’t want the mantle of leadership. It’s time for you to leave the shadows.

          <They then give L’rell the codes for the bomb. The only piece of leverage that Starfleet has, they have now given to the Klingons. Do note that the episode also shows Birds of Prey heading towards Earth. This was the last stand.>


          Then there’s the speech that Burnham gives to Starfleet after the war: Link here

          So, how does that not fit the criteria? I can find examples from the other seasons too, if you’d prefer.

          The only difference between Star Trek: Discovery using speeches and any older Trek is that Star Trek: Discovery is serialized. Meaning that character growth happening instantly in one episode is going to feel awkward, stilted and like bad writing. If you want a speech like that you need to earn it now. You can’t just throw it out willy nilly for major threats like that. Yet, when they deal with smaller threats in the other seasons, they do use speeches like that. First thought that comes to mind was when they head to earth in Season 3 and force a chat that ends a standoff been going on near a century. Or the other chat they had with the Vulcans in Unification III.

          There are plenty of those speeches.

                • Stamets@lemmy.worldM
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                  4 days ago

                  Okay yeah that’s actually on me. I thought I was on my post about Discovery, not this one, which had a different vibe entirely. I totally goofed and I apologize.

                  That being said… Kelvin Trek I will let slide far more given it’s a movie. Most of them are pretty brash with a lot of visuals, action and explosions. Definitely different but I like them for what they are.

                  Picard I cannot fucking stand the first two seasons of but they still do try to talk our their problems about as often as they try to bash them out. Season 1 has Picard running about trying to figure out whats going on but at the end he’s still trying to resolve things with words more so than anything else. But the resolution of both Season 1 and Season 2 of Picard end because people decided to talk as opposed to blow each other up.

                  In other Star Treks, you have a ‘monster of the week’ type deal where the issue that you’re going to solve that week isn’t likely to ever come up again. You can fast track development there and be able to talk people down, especially when you’re an outsider coming in for a short period. When it comes to serialized shows they still do the same thing where they talk people down, it is just over a longer period of time. Having to whittle away at someone. You still see that whittling in old Trek. Sometimes there will be engagements in between talks or they will have to fire to get someone to actually listen. The only difference is that because they’re dealing with a smaller timeframe over all, they have to spend a smaller amount of that on those conflicts. Picard was able to stretch that out over a longer period of time to get to the point of discussion being the answer to their problems.

                  Season 1 has Riker show up with a massive fleet of shitty CGI copy/paste ships to go against the equally shitty Romulan fleet but they only existed as a stalemate to force conversation.

                  Season 2 has the borg showing up and everyone freaking the fuck out. But that Borg threat was neutralized by two people getting along, in a manner of speaking. Jurati and the Borg Queen infected each other and created a sort of new “strain” of Borg with its own collective. But the conversation that they have at the end of Season 2 is what seals that conflict, not a fight.

                  The Kelvin timeline… yeah those are harder to argue. Most of it is just action but like I said, they’re movies so I don’t care that much about them. I mean that for all Trek movies. I’m more of a show dweeb.

                  Again I am endlessly sorry that I acted like a fucking fool. That is completely on me for not verifying where I was. I was responding to two different comments in the two different threads and just sort of forgot that this was a different post entirely. No ones fault but mine for my own stupidity.

                  • Banrik@fedia.io
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                    4 days ago

                    Don’t worry about it, like in my edit there is a lot going on the macro scale and i can imagine anyone that enjoys star trek is feeling the strain (streign?).

                    yeah i know the Kelvins are movies and you gotta give it more lax because movies need to hit wider audiences to justify the large budgets, that being said a low budget movie made by A24 in the trek universe would be something might actually go to the cinema to go see.

                    I feel the end of one is misguided because the AI hole monster is still like a thing? i mean i’m not going to lie the picard gollum lives rent free in my brain so when i try to remember what happened to the AI Tenticles from another dimension I think they just closed it but i feel like that still could be an issue, felt like dealing with the symptoms not the root issue? Also yeah the terrible CGI ships don’t help me remember that ending.

                    I would argue there is something very toxic about the borg queen & Jurati’s relationship but we know very little so i may be just imprinting bad experiences with codependcy. But season 2 is time travel so its like did all that version of the borg already exist or was it different and then i have to stop thinking cause at this point i think time travel in Star trek is only damaging things, though it’s like pandora’s box, you can’t close it now. Season 2 also hits hard because some of the subject matter follows a pattern of irl things happening in my childhood & i think it was mishandled in that season. like as a kid watching trek i’d clung onto the thought that if i’d been around in trek times things may have played out different cause we were better as a whole but season 2 kinda poorly inserted that but again i may be marred by my own experiences?

      • Optional@lemmy.world
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        4 days ago

        IMO it’s got to have a healthy shot of humor. Running gags work for me, but keeping it light at least at the edges or the ending is very important. Too much humorless drama, too much self-seriousness, too many traumas means I’m not going to watch it. Make it fun. Give me zingers to balance the shooting and screaming. Have Spock insult McCoy every so slightly. Let Kirk side eye them both. That’s a good wrap for Trek.

      • kbal@fedia.io
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        4 days ago

        If mentioning the existence of critics of this particular film isn’t wholly forbiedden now, here is one take which mentions some ways in which it perceived by some as atypical of traditional Star Trek.

        • Stamets@lemmy.worldM
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          4 days ago
          1. That movie was released today. That straight up does not count. If it hasn’t been released for 24 hours then it can’t have had an impact on all the Trek shows that have been going on for nearly the better part of the past decade. Also, you can quite easily ignore literally everything about that movie and it will never have an impact on the overall lore or standing of Star Trek.

          2. It’s about a black ops CIA organization within Starfleet that is morally corrupt and fucked. Section 31 is literally supposed to be contrary to the rest of Starfleet. I wouldn’t be shocked if that movie is too.

          3. I haven’t seen it yet and cannot comment on the substance of the movie at all nor do I want to read it considering it says there are spoilers.

          Do you have any examples from the past 10 years?

          • kbal@fedia.io
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            4 days ago

            I wasn’t aiming to argue with you. Discovery is fine although it’s not for me. I was just expressing hope that the movie won’t be as bad as they say, since I still have some.

            • Stamets@lemmy.worldM
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              4 days ago

              I wasn’t aiming to argue with you

              I asked for examples and you offered examples. You also started it with an argumentative phrase suggesting that critics of a movie cannot be mentioned on this community.

              I was just expressing hope that the movie won’t be as bad as they say, since I still have some.

              I heard people describe Discovery as essentially murdering the barely warm corpse of Star Trek. The show isn’t nearly as bad as that. All of these loud critics always end up being that. The loudest. Things are rarely as bad as they claim to be. I’m also very hesitant to accept criticisms from people whos livelihoods depend on clickbait.

              • kbal@fedia.io
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                4 days ago

                I was referring to my earlier comment which you deleted. It suggested that some people believe the new movie is unfaithful to the ideals they expect Star Trek to uphold, in a way that would represent “stuff that hasn’t already been done.” It is not difficult to find such opinions expressed all over the net. It was in that comment that I expressed the hope that they would be proven wrong.