There is a well-known internet proverb, the bullshit assymetry principle:
“The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.”
Anyone who has been in a few software chatrooms, a political communities, or any hobby groups has probably seen the eternal fountain of people asking really obvious questions, all the time, forever. No amount of patience and free time would allow a community to give quality answers by hand to each and every one of them, and gradually the originally-helpful people answering get sick of dealing with this constantly, then newcomers will often get treated with annoyance and hostility for their ignorant laziness. That’s one way how communities get a reputation for being ‘toxic’ or ‘elitist’. I’ve occasionally seen this first hand even on Lemmy, and obviously telling people to go away until they’ve figured out the answer themselves isn’t a useful way to build a mass movement.
This is a reason why efficient communication matters.
Efficient teaching isn’t a new idea, so we have plenty of techniques to draw from. One of the most famous texts in the world is a pamphlet, the Manifesto of the Communist Party, a way for the Communist League to share the idea of historical materialism to many thousands using a couple of dozen pages. Pamphlets and fliers are still used today at protests and rallies and for general promotion, and in the real world are often used as a resource when someone asks for a basic introduction to an ideology.
However, online, we have increased access to existing resources and linking people to information is easier than ever. I’ve seen some great examples of this on Lemmy with Dessalines often integrating pages of their FAQ/resources list into short to-the-point replies, and Cowbee linking their introductory reading list. So instead of burning out rewriting detailed replies to each and every beginner question from a propagandised liberal, or just banning/kicking people who don’t even understand what they said wrong (propaganda is a hell of a drug), these users can pack a lot of information into their posts using effective links. Using existing resources counters the bullshit assymetry principle. There’s a far lower risk of burnout and hostility when you can simply copy a bookmarked page, paste it, and write a short sentence to contextualize it. No 5 minute mini-essay in your reply to get the message across properly, finding sources each time, getting it nitpicked by trolls, and all that. Just link to an already-polished answer one click away!
There are many FAQ sites for different topics and ideological schools of thought (e.g. here’s a well-designed anarchist FAQ I’ve been linked to years ago). There are also plenty of wikis, like ProleWiki and Leftypedia, which I think are seriously underused (I’m surprised Lemmygrad staff and users haven’t built a culture of constantly linking common silly takes to their wiki’s articles. What’s the point of the wiki if it’s not being used much by its host community?).
Notice that an FAQ is often able to link to specific common questions, and is very different from the classic “read this entire book” reply some of you may have seen before - unfortunately when a post says “how can value com from labor and not supply nd demand?”, they’re probably not in the mood to read Capital Vol. I-III to answer their question no matter how you ask them, but they might skim a wiki page on LTV and maybe then read further.
(Honestly, I think there’s a missed opportunity for integrating information resources into ban messages and/or the global rules pages, because I guarantee more than half the people getting banned for sinophobia/xenophobia/orientalism sincerely don’t think anything they said was racist or chauvanistic - it’s often reiterating normal rhetoric and ““established facts”” in mass media; not a sign of reactionary attitude. The least we can do is give them a learning opportunity instead of simply pushing them further from the labour movement)
What do you mean when you say “you have to have leaders” but in the same breath say “not let them succumb to vanguardism?” The Vanguard is the most advanced of the working class helping to organize and lead social change with the direct participation and consent of the masses, which part of that do you take issue with?
I understand that you have Anarchist sympathies, I myself was once an Anarchist, but I don’t really see what you’re trying to criticize here. What about “vanguardism” should be opposed if you also believe in leaders?
This sounds like a case of just fearing the associations with vanguardism and not with the structure and practical aspects themselves, which ultimately is a problem of aesthetics and not material reality. I could be wrong, which is why I’m asking.
I should probably just butt out, but
This sounds really icky to me. What is that supposed to mean? Given your outreach interests, I feel like it’s worthwhile to share that that language immediately puts me off
The ones who have read theory, done the organizing, built up the party structure. The Black Panther Party was an example of a Vanguard, they were the ones doing direct organizing, feeding children, doing good work for their community while developing strong theoretical backgrounds.
Not everyone has read theory. When Marxists say “advanced” among the Working Class, we are referring to the ones that actually take theory seriously and help educate others, the Union Leaders that may not be Marxists but are well-practiced in labor organizing, and so forth. Not every member of the working class exists in the same conditions, the same understanding, the same experience with organizing, so it’s the role of the more experienced to help guide the less experienced.
If I’m being honest, I think you latched onto “advanced” as icky because you’re already hostile to Marxism by virtue of adopting Anarchism. I feel that this is unwarranted, honestly. What word would you have had me say? “Elite?” Surely not. “Experienced?” Maybe, would that help convey what I am saying?
Tbh I think that’s the kind of thing that turned me away from Marxism
I wouldn’t say I’m hostile to it- I’m quite fond of Marx. I think it comes more from being a social worker than an anarchist. it just sounded elitist to me, and I imagine it would feel that way to anyone who isn’t themselves one of the “advanced”
Yes, I think “experienced” is a much better word!
When describing those who are “advanced”, just think of it as Marxists being big nerds thst treat revolution as a discipline of study, a science, that is geared towards application: doing the revolution in the best way you can so it is more likely to succeed in all aspects. Just like anyone can become advanced in a science by accumulating degrees and publishing scientific results, the big nerd revolutionary can become advanced through theoretical study and intentional organizing work coupled with constructive self-criticism.
It is those who are advanced in this discipline - not just with experience, but also theoretically, e.g. being class conscious - who Marxists identify as those most ready to lead revolution. And realky, it just makes sense, as a simplified way of saying it is that those with the most exoerience and who are most knowledgeable in a more correct political understanding will make better decisive and have more impact.
The label is also used by contrast. It follows from an acknowledgement that when revolutionaries looked at their real capitalist societies, most people would not have this experience and knowledge. In addition, left formations are often banned or otherwise suppressed before they can gain mass “advancement”. This is where vanguardism cones from, it’s why it exists. It posits that you can function as a suppressed, even an underground, organization to foment revolution by specifically recruiting and developing those who are most “advanced”, which will run a gamut of experiences and theoretical understandings, with the goal of having outsized influence via leadership positions in, for example, organized labor. And this can be done in many forms, including a union leader working with your front group rather than being a member of a Marxist party.
In lieu of this, when people try to organize without leadership by “advanced” members of the working class, you get the same mistakes and failures over and over again. It takes experience, theoretical understanding, constructive self-criticism, and a means by which to retain and use what is learned through each action in order to make increasingly better choices. A lack of “advanced” members or an appreciation of “advancement” is why so many of the US’ left movements spin their wheels and offer only false catharsis rather than material change.
I will leave one final negative example, which is that the most “experienced” person, in this Western context, is often the last person you should listen to. Their experience is usually in failure and often this means they have become resigned to just trying the same thing over snd over again because they have found a way to rationalize failure as a success instead. And because of their experience, they can take up a lot of space for wrong ideas. This distinguishes experience from “advancement”: the quality of experience matters but so does having clear eyes about our own work and the societies in which we are embedded.
Historically, vanguards have earned the trust of the masses by directly working with them and within them. I think you would be served well by reading up on successful revolutions and how they came to be.
The underlying theory seems sound to me- almost common sense tbh. I just think it could benefit from being reframed as simply a role, no more important/special than any other. E.g.: vanguards are the educators, motivators, organizers, representatives, etc.
So, if I am understanding you correctly, your problems with Marxism mostly stem from elitist aesthetics and attitudes? I can’t say I agree with that view of Marxism and Marxists, but then I ask, why pivot to Anarchism, rather than trying to combat what you perceive as elitist aesthetics and attitudes within the Marxist current if you agree with the theoretical foundations? Unless, of course, you also disagree with those, but you haven’t indicated that thus far so I have no way of knowing. Funnily enough, you may be interested in some of Mao’s writing, Get Organized! and Serve the People, as well much of Mao’s other works are directly focused on instilling humility in the Communist Party of China and focusing on a servile attitude. That’s much of the purpose of the Mass Line as well.
Not trying to be overly critical, I am very openly trying to get more people to read at least a few sections in my reading list I made.
No, I just meant that reaching/uniting with anarchists might be improved by tweaks to the language used to describe things. My problem with Marxism is the (relative) hierarchy
(I don’t think this describes you, I was mostly just reminded of it. Its more in the opposite direction, that changing the name does not change the thing itself, as I write bellow.)
What point is there in changing the names or language used? It will not change the thing itself. And, surely the anarchists do not oppose the things simply because of their names, because they sound bad, or because the vibes are bad. Calling the vanguard something else will not change the fact that it is the vanguard, organized hierarchically on Marxist lines.
I suppose if you see all hierarchy as unjust then you aren’t going to agree with Marxists, though I’m not sure how to reconcile that with you saying vanguardism is common sense.
“The Vanguard” as you describe it was an ideological justification to describe any and all criticism of the ruling class (and yes, to me, the upper echelons of the USSR were a ruling class) as counterrevolutionary. “The most advanced of the working class” shredded the countries military leader shit on the eve of the second world war not because of existing coups, but out of paranoia. “The vanguard” in the end served only to preserve their own interests.
“The people elected SRs or did not vote majority Bolshevik? What do they know, we are the vanguard, we know whats best, lets ignore the elections and abolish the soviets.”
Thats why i dislike the concept of the Vanguard. Because never turned out the way it was promised and it never will.
There are a few issues here. First, the upper-level government employees in the USSR did not constitute a “class,” that’s a misframing of class analysis that you didn’t justify. Secondly, a Vanguard is not an ideological justification for any actions by the Vanguard, I have no idea where you are getting that idea from but it certainly isn’t Marxists. Thirdly, the SRs had a split right before the election and the information was not given to the public before the election in adequate numbers, and even then this was in the much less popular Provisional Government, and not in the more popular Soviet Government, the “Dual Power” that the Workers supported far more than the liberal Provisional Government, you are just arguing against popular revolution if the Bourgeoisie opposes it at this point.
I think you should read Blackshirts and Reds | Audiobook. Marxist States have turned out how they were promised, not as the mythical “pure” Socialism untainted by reality, but as actually existing Socialist states.
Painting the SRs or the dismantled soviets as bourgeois is a bit rich.
I know that the marxist framework does not explicitly say “The Vanguard is always right”, but for example in the GDR, the Vanguard itself said so. “Die Partei hat immer Recht.” The Party is always right.
And im going to be honest: If shit like the great terror is how marxist states are supposed to be, maybe they are shit states.
I didn’t paint the SRs or the Soviets as bourgeois, and I don’t know what you mean by “dismantled” Soviets. I painted the Provisional Government as bourgeois. The SRs had a split, with left SRs and right SRs, right before the election, so the votes were largely uninformed anyways. It made more sense to legitimize the Soviet model and delegitimize the liberal provisional government, since many workers already didn’t care about the provisional government to begin with and thus didn’t vote. The revolution had immense popular support.
Again, read Blackshirts and Reds | Audiobook. If you think post-revolutionary states are not dramatic improvements on the misery that preceded revolution, you haven’t done enough research to speak on the subject authoritatively.