hit the character limit
make sure to read sources before sharing them.
DO NOT COPY-PASTE THIS ON LEMMY LOL THIS IS JUST A BRAINSTORM FOR OUR USE
We should pool our sources and evidence in this thread so that people with approved lemmy accounts can start spreading it there.
Feel free to contribute lol, it's a lot of work for me to do on my own and I might miss shit or make mistakes, although I'm gonna keep going help or no
I’ll grab links in a second (and there are some good articles I’d like to find that gather lots of evidence in one place), but here’s some stuff off the top of my head:
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wikileaks published a private diplomatic cable acknowledging that no one was killed in the square itself, although a smaller number of people did die in clashes elsewhere in Beijing, consistent with China’s own official account. (Here’s a Telegraph article on the cables)
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a spanish film crew was in the square all night and filmed people peacefully leaving the square in the early morning, singing the Internationale (courtesy of /u/robinn, here’s footage of a Hong Kong news report that includes the spanish film crew footage, which never appears in western reporting)
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one of the main organizers of the protest, Hou Dejian, acknowledges that no one died in the square and calls out other organizers for lying (courtesy of /u/GarbageShoot: interview where Hou Dejian, a Taiwanese national and one of the leaders of the Tiananmen protests, says he was in the square all night and saw no one killed — and also courtesy of /u/robinn, here is a twitter thread covering testimony by various organizers, including Hou Dejian)
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Numerous western media sources have acknowledged that no massacre occurred in the square. (This article links to multiple western sources, including James Miles, acknowledging that no one died in the square.)
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various western massacre reports cite wildly different death figures
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an attempt to collect all the names of the massacre victims ended early when they only found 155 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Mothers
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CIA and NED goons were known to be present in Beijing and involved in the protests. (Here is an article from the Vancouver Sun in 1992, showing western intelligence involvement was known in the west at the time)
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during most of the protest, protesters were calling for a return to stricter communism, not for liberal market reforms. These were Marxists. Their signs showed Marxist figures and slogans. (This article shows some images of the protesters displaying Marxist slogans and iconography and discusses it a bit — careful linking this site though, some of the articles are pretty dumb)
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toward the end protest signs were suddenly in English
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the tanks in the tank man video are leaving the square (you can see this in the uncropped footage) and it is broad daylight, whereas the main violence occurred at night (also, courtesy of /u/robinn again: China in 1989 for one man vs. the U.S. in 2020 for a whole crowd and courtesy of /u/LegaliiizeIt, another video in the same vein)
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online photos of corpses were taken elsewhere, not the square
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the first violence was against troops, not civilians. On June 2, 1989, two days before the June 4 incident when the main violence occurred, multiple unarmed Chinese troops were burned alive and their corpses hung from nooses in public. ((CW: DEATH, GORE) courtesy of /u/robinn, here is a thread of photos showing dead and wounded troops, some being rescued by civilians. Multiple men were burned to death, others were beaten. Some protesters stole guns from the army and can be seen brandishing them.)
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the violence against troops was uncharacteristic of the previous tone of interactions between troops and protesters in the preceding weeks. Troops and protesters had peacefully coexisted, singing songs and sharing food together. (Here’s an article that goes into it a bit — again, careful linking this site, some of the articles are dumb)
I don’t really have much off the top of my head for Uighur genocide stuff
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libs should hear who Zens is
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evidence for genocide is all unverifiable shit from western intelligence-affiliated sources. No evidence for organ harvesting or mass disposal of millions of bodies.
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western intelligence has been stoking and funding islamic extremism in Xinjiang. There’s that talk by some American general or colonel where he acknowledges this, and I think there are other sources online as well
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Qiaocollective is a good source on Xinjiang, courtesy of /u/BynarsAreOk
I'll stick articles down here, some of which aggregate lots of evidence in one place
How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning …edgy-sounding title though
1989: Tiananmen Square ‘massacre’ was a myth
How Much Longer Do We Need to Propagate Lies About Tiananmen Square?
Tiananmen: The Massacre that Wasn’t
1989 Tiananmen Square “Student Massacre” was a hoax
The Truth Behind the Myth of the ‘Tiananmen Square Massacre’ - Opinion Piece By Dr. Dennis Etler
Notes for 30th Anniversary of TianAnMen Incident, courtesy of /u/GarbageShoot
Tiananmen Square Massacre – Facts, Fiction and Propaganda This one has a lot of good images and western media quotes, but the site hosts some goofy articles so be careful citing it
Let’s talk about Tiananmen Square, 1989: My hearsay is better than your hearsay
Birth of a massacre myth, courtesy of /u/GarbageShoot
CBS news: There was no “Tiananmen Square Massacre”, courtesy of /u/robinn
a NYT questioning the massacre, courtesy of /u/robinn and here’s a pastebin rip
dessalines, a Lemmy dev, has a good socialism FAQ, including sections on Tiananmen, courtesy of /u/PorkrollPosadist
[link] [link] these two /r/ChangeMyView comments on China are great, courtesy of /u/geikei
[link] [link] [link] Some old hexbear threads, courtesy of /u/Finger
not China, but /u/robinn also made a carrd on the DPRK and linked a good twitter thread by ProleWiki
Comments in this thread to check out. I'll try to also add their info up here.
/u/robinn: https://hexbear.net/post/271448/comment/3513792
/u/Awoo suggests keeping things short and digestible instead of posting long effortposts, since libs will just count on people not reading the whole thing and they will point at it and say “See? They deny the Uighur genocide” or “See, they deny Tiananmen” https://hexbear.net/post/271448/comment/3514089
/u/GnastyGnuts has some great links but I hit char limit https://hexbear.net/post/271448/comment/3514972
/u/Krause has more great links https://hexbear.net/comment/3529874
Lemmy posts and comments from us
by /u/GarbageShoot: https://lemmy.ml/comment/476526
lemmygrad.ml needs a replybot that hits any instance of the words uighur or xinjiang with the same paste as r/thedeprogram uses
Speaking of, great place to get links
The first wave will be the anti-China libs
Once they are conquered the second wave will be the pro-Ukraine radlibs
Then the final boss battle will be against V*ush
It’s nice how you can tell someone is absolutely brain dead from their use of the word “Tankie”
Truly the definition of a meaningless and thought terminating cliche
the tankie now actually mean anyone who doesn’t want to send the tanks in (to the ukraine) which is fucking nuts
These posts will just become the wedge issue itself. They will link to these posts and say “see, they deny uighur genocide” and “see, they deny tiananmen square”. This will then be used to convince people either not to use lemmy at all or to defederate with every single left wing instance.
They will count on people not actually reading these posts, because the quantity of information you need to consume to understand the position held here is absolutely massive compared to the pre-programming that they already have which creates the massive emotional reaction in them.
What we need is to make shit as short and digestable as humanly possible.
i just call them racist and their primary source is a german holocaust denier :shrug-outta-hecks:
Zenz? Holocaust denier?
Zenz is definitely homophobic and racist but do you have a source for holocaust denial?
That was specifically what I was asking for lol. I assume it’s some comment he’s made at some point? Best I can find is this: https://twitter.com/Mango_Press_/status/1340072338893758465
replied to the wrong person for the source ask mb
yep
God damn how did I not know that…
Are you basing that on this or something more? https://twitter.com/Mango_Press_/status/1340072338893758465
Idk what that says I don’t have a twitter
The whole post should be this image with a brief explainer that the entirety of the accusations of genocide in China come from this man.
thats at least one of the terrible things hes said :yea:
They will count on people not actually reading these posts
That’s a good point.
What we need is to make shit as short and digestible as humanly possible
Good idea. Punchy headlines linking elsewhere instead of effortposts maybe.
Effortposts are fine, but they need summaries, and the summaries need to be at the start and in a bulletpoint format with links for further reading.
I don’t know if you ever saw the lib that got famous on /r/politics for their big link posts in comment sections but that seems to be a format that worked, digestable enough points with links for further reading to back it up. I can’t remember that user’s name right now though.
Okay found out what Lemmy is and I hate it. Like wtf is this.
Hey, tankies, decent countries don’t have to violently suppress their populations and then lie about it. Oh, and socialism is worker ownership of the means of production, not whatever the fuck they’re doing in China. (inb4 people assuming I must support the US since I hate China)
The socialism understander has logged on. Wouldn’t even know what to reply to this since it’s literally nothing.
Oh, and socialism is worker ownership of the means of production, not whatever the fuck they’re doing in China.
What would you have a hypothetical, newly socialist country do at this moment in the global economy? How would you go about increasing living conditions? How would you build your productive capacity? And, most critically, how would you do it without being overwhelmed by capitalist forces?
don’t have a lemmy, someone feel free to use this
:parenti: The maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest and most comprehensive proletarian revolution in history, and led to almost totally-equal redistribution of land among the peasantry.
