It is kinda dumb we can’t trust each other to all just vote third party. I’ll shut up because there are a million reasons it won’t work and giving it wind is the last thing I want. But this system is so fucked that we either get placeholder or fascist. Yay, American democracy.
How are you going to change the voting system when the people who have the power to change the voting system are the ones who benefit from the system as-is?
This is correct. It’s entirely sad that we have 100,000 people speculating how to do it and maybe 10 people actually working to get it done. If I could write you a check to quit your day job and work solely on this, I would. Sadly I can’t, otherwise I would have cut myself the same check.
The problem is first-past-the-post always leads to strategic voting, which leads to eliminating 3rd parties. And, once you have only 2 viable parties, they benefit immensely from FPTP, so they’re unlikely to ever get rid of it.
Unfortunately, game theory was invented in the 1940s, and the USA was invented in the 1770s, so the founding fathers couldn’t make use of game theory to work out a good electoral system. Oh, and having to compromise with the slave-holding states and devising an electoral system that gave them power turns out to have had bad effects down the line. Who knew!?
I keep saying it but it is one big Prisoner’s Dilemma. The best next steps that can realistically happen are
We vote in grandpa Joe.
All these folks that are single issue Democrats FIGHT AND CHANGE THE SYSTEM. If you are an actual leftist, or just a Democrat, set the field for a fight you can actually win, instead of handing it to trump then fighting uphill with cement shoes. If it is a narrow miss, you have something to point at and go “look how bad we need third party options and a system that enables them!”
(funfact, part 2 can not happen under he other guy)
Losing the whole fight because you want everything to be perfect overnight is pathetic. Causes move slow nomatter how much the spastic activist brain wants everything perfect and right now. You also don’t bring anyone to your cause by being toxic about it.
Agree. But I don’t see anyone disrupting the status quo (let’s face it, Bernie is mint but old, AOC is mint but young, I’d get behind Newsom or Whitmer but I feel like they are grand because of my own bias) . I’ll take that pest over that cholera in the meantime.
Note that “third party” isn’t automatically better, given these third parties. I wager a Green Party minded person would be incensed if libertarians won, for example.
I’ll also say that the current crop of third party candidates are impractically minded, so they wouldn’t be the sorts of folks I’d want in charge anyway.
However, if they became a viable path to office (ranked choice voting), I bet they’d get better quality candidates running with them instead of compromising and running as D or R.
The impact of third parties on American politics extends far beyond their capacity to attract votes. Minor parties, historically, have been a source of important policy innovations. Women’s suffrage, the graduated income tax, and the direct election of senators, to name a few, were all issues that third parties espoused first.
This would only make sense if Trump was less pro-Israel than Biden. He’s not. He wants Netanyahu to “finish the job” exterminating Palestinians. I’m sorry neither candidate is great on your single-issue voting mentality, but staying home or voting Trump will literally make life worse for both Palestinians and Ukrainians. (As well as Americans.)
If you vote for anyone other than the Dems in this election, you’re as good as voting for Trump, which is voting for genocide and losing your democracy. I fucking hate what’s happening in Palestine. I’m also realistic enough to see that you’ll lose your country if you don’t protect it.
If you have no preference between a self avowed dictator and a milquetoast politician, I question if your head is roundish or if there’s a large flat spot where part of your head was caved in.
Because you can’t be naturally so stupid to be ambivalent to the country falling to a fascist who wants to genocide multiple groups, can you?
The question is do you have a preference in being able to express potential future preferences?
As bad as it has been, the R team went absurdly beyond in late 2020 with respect to refusing to recognize the result of an election, trying to use fake electors, by pushing to reject the certification of the electors, and a lot of people campaigning for board of elections to “ensure Republican victories”.
They are openly working to establish a China-like system where there’s only one viable “party”.
You’re right. If the dems split their vote and Trump wins he will definitely behave in a calm and moral fashion. It’s not like Trump is a vindictive and shortsighted tyrant. He’s an ethical, scholarly gentleman. He never behaves impulsively or in a cruel and mean spirited way. And if there’s one thing Trump is passionate about, it’s protecting the weak and downtrodden. He believes in the equality of all nations, and doesn’t consider any of them to be shit holes. And he’s definitely not recently on record saying that Israel should just go in and “finish the job”.
Go ahead and tell the LGBTQ+ and every woman that you know that you don’t give fuck all about their rights to exist. Let them know that you chose instead to stand up for a country that you didn’t give a shit about less than a year ago over their rights to exist. Be sure not to forget to include that you are well aware that the genocide will continue with or without the aid of America, and with or without Biden in office- because you know NOTHING about how politics work.
I’m sure they’ll be so proud of you for standing tall and curing them of that bad case of freedom they’ve been plagued by all these years.
Okay buddy. I think we’re done here. I’ve enabled you to troll long enough with the hopes that you’d call yourself out- which you did spectacularly- thank you for that…. But now you’re sputtering.
There’s not much left in the tank to expose so I can walk away from this safely knowing that less people will be taking you seriously.
One thing I didn’t cover in your rambling: the genocide will not continue without the aid of America. Look at how Reagan and Bush kept their rabid dog on a leash.
I continue to be astounded by this argument. In what world would trump be less genocidey? Yeah I get it fuck Biden, I don’t like it either, yes it would be great if we had better candidates. We don’t though, we still need to do more work on that front, it sucks, but for fuck sake don’t risk letting trump win. Voting for Biden isn’t voting for genocide it’s voting against it getting even worse than it already is
Basically an instance of childish people who’ve decided that the West is bad and evil and therefore everything Russia, China, or North Korea does is good and if you have any criticism of either three, you’ll get harassed or banned. In this case, one of them is showing extreme ignorance towards how American politics work. And confidently so. I recommend against participating in .ml posts, because it is laughably easy to get banned by their thin-skinned moderation team for no good reason. Even for participating in the non-political communities.
Wait… How is the Angry Creamsicle any better than Biden on the Israel issues? Didn’t Baby Fingers Trump move the American Embassy to Jerusalem (and proclaimed it the capital of Israel)?
I’d love to understand why Biden is somehow worse than Dangerous Donald with respect to their views of Israel and Palestine? As a laymen, I only see two sides of the same coin. And frankly, that is not enough motivation for me to allow Adolf Twitler to be president a second time.
Yeah you are. You said above you are not voting, so you are voting for the guy that wins, that is how the math of the system works in the real world. Biden loses a swing state because 10,000 of your morons don’t vote that would have voted against trump and trump with a because of that one swing state…you enabled his win with your inaction.
No, that’s not how “the math in the system works”. A null vote is a null vote.
If “the math in the system” worked as you claimed, that null votes were for Trump, then Trump would have won in a landslide in 2020 and this year would also be no-contest, as voter turnout is around 60%.
You not knowing that is why your position is bad. The “null votes” went to Biden in 2020 (they go to the winner, not trump…as I never claimed. You misread that part). If you don’t vote or vote third-party, you voted for the person that ultimately wins the election.
The conservatives are going to vote and won’t stop voting just because their guy is evil, he can do anything and get their vote. You genocide clowns are only syphoning votes from the Democrats(GOP doesn’t care about genocides)…meaning your vote will support trump most likely.
This is not a hard concept. You can likely find a YouTube video that can explain it at your level.
You haven’t answered my question. I bet you can’t, and won’t. You’ll continue to spew your (il)logical fallacies and do nothing more than pollute any meaningful conversation with your bullshit rhetoric. Go back to Reddit where you belong. The adults are talking here.
Voting third party is voting for the other guy, btw. (System sucks but we can’t change it overnight and a full shift of the democrat voters is a prisoners dilemma…I’ll let you figure out why that is bad)
Cite sources. You make claims up and down to the fact that third-parties have “influenced” elections [other than the spoiler effect, pulling votes from someone’s next preferred candidate]. So what third-party candidate has been shown to influence anything positively under our current system of voting.
I tell ya, Putin must be running out of “the best and brightest” to the meat grinder in Ukraine if we’re left with you.
I understand you THINK that is the case. You do not understand first-past-the-post voting, you don’t understand electoral college, you don’t understand the mentality of the MAJORITY of out-of-touch voters that don’t even know what left and right mean.
You lack the information needed to effectively champion your alleged cause and you are so bad at it that you are making enemies of the people that would rather stand with you in changing the system so we DO have third parties and your “solution” isn’t just an ignorant person’s pipedream.
I am not American, but let me ask you one thing, is it worth it to take your stand in this election to rest your case in the fact that your vest stays clean - even if this is the last vote that you get?
Because what I can see is that that’s precisely what happened in the Weimar years. People could not fully identify with one party so they made their own slightly different one. The only ones however to rarely actually care about policies are the fascists/nazis/right-wingers
I’m not going to PMs, you can have this conversation in public.
The worst way to convince Biden to stop a genocide is to promise you’ll vote for him no matter what.
And the worst way to stop genocide is to let the ‘finish the job’ candidate win.
Don’t pull that virtue signalling bullshit with me, I’ve had this conversation with genocide enablers many times. I hate what Biden is doing, but I’m not stupid enough to think that virtue signalling will do anything to help the people that trump wants to murder at home and abroad.
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Either candidate is voting for genocide, and they’re the only viable options. So your comment is pointless.
No, ya see, the guy whose signature policy was “ban Muslims from entering the USA” is going to be an ally to the Palestinians!
Ahhh duck off, if it comes to it, I’ll support 1 genocide over 2,3, or 10, if that’s the choice I have. I chose my solution in that trolley problem.
It is kinda dumb we can’t trust each other to all just vote third party. I’ll shut up because there are a million reasons it won’t work and giving it wind is the last thing I want. But this system is so fucked that we either get placeholder or fascist. Yay, American democracy.
Change the voting system
Then
Change the representation system
How are you going to change the voting system when the people who have the power to change the voting system are the ones who benefit from the system as-is?
You start local with referendums and work your way up. That’s how Fargo got approval voting, for example.
This is correct. It’s entirely sad that we have 100,000 people speculating how to do it and maybe 10 people actually working to get it done. If I could write you a check to quit your day job and work solely on this, I would. Sadly I can’t, otherwise I would have cut myself the same check.
The problem is first-past-the-post always leads to strategic voting, which leads to eliminating 3rd parties. And, once you have only 2 viable parties, they benefit immensely from FPTP, so they’re unlikely to ever get rid of it.
Unfortunately, game theory was invented in the 1940s, and the USA was invented in the 1770s, so the founding fathers couldn’t make use of game theory to work out a good electoral system. Oh, and having to compromise with the slave-holding states and devising an electoral system that gave them power turns out to have had bad effects down the line. Who knew!?
I keep saying it but it is one big Prisoner’s Dilemma. The best next steps that can realistically happen are
We vote in grandpa Joe.
All these folks that are single issue Democrats FIGHT AND CHANGE THE SYSTEM. If you are an actual leftist, or just a Democrat, set the field for a fight you can actually win, instead of handing it to trump then fighting uphill with cement shoes. If it is a narrow miss, you have something to point at and go “look how bad we need third party options and a system that enables them!”
(funfact, part 2 can not happen under he other guy) Losing the whole fight because you want everything to be perfect overnight is pathetic. Causes move slow nomatter how much the spastic activist brain wants everything perfect and right now. You also don’t bring anyone to your cause by being toxic about it.
Agree. But I don’t see anyone disrupting the status quo (let’s face it, Bernie is mint but old, AOC is mint but young, I’d get behind Newsom or Whitmer but I feel like they are grand because of my own bias) . I’ll take that pest over that cholera in the meantime.
Note that “third party” isn’t automatically better, given these third parties. I wager a Green Party minded person would be incensed if libertarians won, for example.
I’ll also say that the current crop of third party candidates are impractically minded, so they wouldn’t be the sorts of folks I’d want in charge anyway.
However, if they became a viable path to office (ranked choice voting), I bet they’d get better quality candidates running with them instead of compromising and running as D or R.
Was someone arguing that third parties don’t have good ideas?? Are you just posting nonsequiters for fun? I don’t get it.
just stating the fact that most progressive policy in the USA comes from one of the two major parties absorbing third party policy to win close races.
So, a random nonsequiter. Got it.
This would only make sense if Trump was less pro-Israel than Biden. He’s not. He wants Netanyahu to “finish the job” exterminating Palestinians. I’m sorry neither candidate is great on your single-issue voting mentality, but staying home or voting Trump will literally make life worse for both Palestinians and Ukrainians. (As well as Americans.)
Most of them know this. And that’s why they are not voting/voting for Trump.
If it’s such a drastic difference, Palestinian groups would be endorsing a candidate. They did in 2020. They’re not now.
Better vote trump, then?
They’re not endorsing a candidate.
Super helpful! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If you vote for anyone other than the Dems in this election, you’re as good as voting for Trump, which is voting for genocide and losing your democracy. I fucking hate what’s happening in Palestine. I’m also realistic enough to see that you’ll lose your country if you don’t protect it.
Your assumption assumes a preference between two candidates. I have no preference.
There is no assumption on my part about a preference between two candidates.
If you have no preference between a self avowed dictator and a milquetoast politician, I question if your head is roundish or if there’s a large flat spot where part of your head was caved in.
Because you can’t be naturally so stupid to be ambivalent to the country falling to a fascist who wants to genocide multiple groups, can you?
The question is do you have a preference in being able to express potential future preferences?
As bad as it has been, the R team went absurdly beyond in late 2020 with respect to refusing to recognize the result of an election, trying to use fake electors, by pushing to reject the certification of the electors, and a lot of people campaigning for board of elections to “ensure Republican victories”.
They are openly working to establish a China-like system where there’s only one viable “party”.
You’re right. If the dems split their vote and Trump wins he will definitely behave in a calm and moral fashion. It’s not like Trump is a vindictive and shortsighted tyrant. He’s an ethical, scholarly gentleman. He never behaves impulsively or in a cruel and mean spirited way. And if there’s one thing Trump is passionate about, it’s protecting the weak and downtrodden. He believes in the equality of all nations, and doesn’t consider any of them to be shit holes. And he’s definitely not recently on record saying that Israel should just go in and “finish the job”.
The worst way to push Biden on genocide is to promise you’ll vote for him no matter what.
That’s a long way of saying you don’t understand politics.
The worst way to push Biden on genocide is to promise you’ll vote for him no matter what.
And the best way to end genocide is to do nothing. Because history is full of examples where doing nothing created change.
Right?
Voting Biden, like you’d be doing regardless of his genocide, is doing nothing.
Incorrect
What does it do for Palestine, exactly? And if it’s so helpful, why aren’t Palestinian groups endorsing Biden?
Enable trump’s win with your ignorance. Let me know how that goes for Palestine.
Go ahead and tell the LGBTQ+ and every woman that you know that you don’t give fuck all about their rights to exist. Let them know that you chose instead to stand up for a country that you didn’t give a shit about less than a year ago over their rights to exist. Be sure not to forget to include that you are well aware that the genocide will continue with or without the aid of America, and with or without Biden in office- because you know NOTHING about how politics work.
I’m sure they’ll be so proud of you for standing tall and curing them of that bad case of freedom they’ve been plagued by all these years.
You have NO idea the damage you’re doing here.
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Okay buddy. I think we’re done here. I’ve enabled you to troll long enough with the hopes that you’d call yourself out- which you did spectacularly- thank you for that…. But now you’re sputtering.
There’s not much left in the tank to expose so I can walk away from this safely knowing that less people will be taking you seriously.
I hope you have the day you deserve.
One thing I didn’t cover in your rambling: the genocide will not continue without the aid of America. Look at how Reagan and Bush kept their rabid dog on a leash.
I continue to be astounded by this argument. In what world would trump be less genocidey? Yeah I get it fuck Biden, I don’t like it either, yes it would be great if we had better candidates. We don’t though, we still need to do more work on that front, it sucks, but for fuck sake don’t risk letting trump win. Voting for Biden isn’t voting for genocide it’s voting against it getting even worse than it already is
They know this. It’s a .ml account. Trust me. They know.
Sorry, new Lemmy refugee from reddit here… .ml?
Essentially a propaganda network of edgy teenaged “socialists” and “communists” that pretend to give a shit about things they don’t understand.
And… welcome to your new home!
Ah! Got it, thanks!
Basically an instance of childish people who’ve decided that the West is bad and evil and therefore everything Russia, China, or North Korea does is good and if you have any criticism of either three, you’ll get harassed or banned. In this case, one of them is showing extreme ignorance towards how American politics work. And confidently so. I recommend against participating in .ml posts, because it is laughably easy to get banned by their thin-skinned moderation team for no good reason. Even for participating in the non-political communities.
I’ll keep that in mind. Thank you.
How do you plan to push Biden on anything if you let trump win, you donut
Wait… How is the Angry Creamsicle any better than Biden on the Israel issues? Didn’t Baby Fingers Trump move the American Embassy to Jerusalem (and proclaimed it the capital of Israel)?
I’d love to understand why Biden is somehow worse than Dangerous Donald with respect to their views of Israel and Palestine? As a laymen, I only see two sides of the same coin. And frankly, that is not enough motivation for me to allow Adolf Twitler to be president a second time.
He’s just a troll, the reddit trash made its way here.
I draw the line at genocide. Not voting for bombing babies, sorry.
Yeah you are. You said above you are not voting, so you are voting for the guy that wins, that is how the math of the system works in the real world. Biden loses a swing state because 10,000 of your morons don’t vote that would have voted against trump and trump with a because of that one swing state…you enabled his win with your inaction.
No, that’s not how “the math in the system works”. A null vote is a null vote.
If “the math in the system” worked as you claimed, that null votes were for Trump, then Trump would have won in a landslide in 2020 and this year would also be no-contest, as voter turnout is around 60%.
You not knowing that is why your position is bad. The “null votes” went to Biden in 2020 (they go to the winner, not trump…as I never claimed. You misread that part). If you don’t vote or vote third-party, you voted for the person that ultimately wins the election.
The conservatives are going to vote and won’t stop voting just because their guy is evil, he can do anything and get their vote. You genocide clowns are only syphoning votes from the Democrats(GOP doesn’t care about genocides)…meaning your vote will support trump most likely.
This is not a hard concept. You can likely find a YouTube video that can explain it at your level.
Yeah, that was Clinton’s plan. Trump just got to it first.
There’s no difference between them. If you think there is, go ahead and convince Palestinian groups. They’re not endorsing either nazi.
You haven’t answered my question. I bet you can’t, and won’t. You’ll continue to spew your (il)logical fallacies and do nothing more than pollute any meaningful conversation with your bullshit rhetoric. Go back to Reddit where you belong. The adults are talking here.
Lukewarm apologies for the liberal’s genocide are all over reddit. Why come here, honestly?
WTF is a “liberal’s genocide‽”
I think it was the genocide of all this guy’s brain cells when forced to actually think for once.
You’re thinking of suicide. What actually happened was homicide… all the drugs killed them.
bOtH siDeS!
Yes, genocide is receiving bi-partisan support.
Cause the other option totally isn’t…
Voting third party is voting for the other guy, btw. (System sucks but we can’t change it overnight and a full shift of the democrat voters is a prisoners dilemma…I’ll let you figure out why that is bad)
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Its a mistake with no real world upside.
Voting third party is the ultimate virtue signaling.
Historically incorrect as far as US politics go.
Cite sources. You make claims up and down to the fact that third-parties have “influenced” elections [other than the spoiler effect, pulling votes from someone’s next preferred candidate]. So what third-party candidate has been shown to influence anything positively under our current system of voting.
I tell ya, Putin must be running out of “the best and brightest” to the meat grinder in Ukraine if we’re left with you.
I understand you THINK that is the case. You do not understand first-past-the-post voting, you don’t understand electoral college, you don’t understand the mentality of the MAJORITY of out-of-touch voters that don’t even know what left and right mean. You lack the information needed to effectively champion your alleged cause and you are so bad at it that you are making enemies of the people that would rather stand with you in changing the system so we DO have third parties and your “solution” isn’t just an ignorant person’s pipedream.
You’re saying things, but you’re not explaining them. Historically third parties in the USA have had major influence on policy.
I am not American, but let me ask you one thing, is it worth it to take your stand in this election to rest your case in the fact that your vest stays clean - even if this is the last vote that you get?
Because what I can see is that that’s precisely what happened in the Weimar years. People could not fully identify with one party so they made their own slightly different one. The only ones however to rarely actually care about policies are the fascists/nazis/right-wingers
The “not an American” gets it.
Sounds like they may again. Idiots will vote for third parties, then the christofascist will win and take over and will enforce it’s policy.
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Who are you recommending instead?
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In lieu of a better candidate, it makes sense to vote for the least worst one available, since one of those two will be the next president.
When the lesser evil strategy leads to genocide, it’s time to try a new strategy.
The more evil one is the alternative.
The way our system works. You not voting means you voted for whoever ends up winning. GJ
A null vote is a null vote. Biden was not credited with the 38% non-voters in 2020.
That’s a short way of saying you’re a dipshit.
That’s rather aggressive. Are you always upset at people who draw the line at genocide?
With people who advocate courses of action that will only exacerbate the one topic they virtue signal about? Absolutely.
If you cared about genocide you’d be trying to lessen it overall, not virtue signal on the Internet.
I’m not going to PMs, you can have this conversation in public.
And the worst way to stop genocide is to let the ‘finish the job’ candidate win.
Don’t pull that virtue signalling bullshit with me, I’ve had this conversation with genocide enablers many times. I hate what Biden is doing, but I’m not stupid enough to think that virtue signalling will do anything to help the people that trump wants to murder at home and abroad.
What a shit take.
STFU
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