Wayland is still incomplete, but that is besides the point I was making. X is still not dead, even living within XWayland, within Wayland. X11 is just one implementation of the X Protocol and XWayland is a new implementation.
Wayland itself is functional and working, just not 100% compatible to X11. The same could be said about X11, it would be nice if they could get some basic functionality working right; but they can’t, and that is why we need to replace it with something more modern and better. I think Wayland is working on a solution for restoring window position and size.
When X was created, there was no compatibility needed. Wayland on the other hand is in a different position, where it needs to innovate, make it more secure and keep as much as possible compatibility to X11, DEs and window managers. It’s just unfair to just say Wayland would not have basic functionality working. It also depends on the desktop environments and GNOME is often to blame for.
It will never be compatible with X because they are different designs. X relies on a central program (server) that accepts commands from programs. It is also a mess as it was built during the 80s for 80s hardware. It was expanded over time but you can only stretch the arch so far.
Wayland doesn’t have a server. You desktop talks to the hardware and then the desktop accepts connections from apps.
That does not seem to be a stray and yes there’s definitely reasons to take potshots at Gnome. They still don’t support server-side decorations. Everyone is absolutely fine with them not wanting to use them in their own apps, have them draw window decorations themselves, and every other DE lets gnome apps do exactly that, but Gnome is steadfastly and pointlessly refusing to draw decorations for apps which don’t want to draw their own decorations. It’d be like a hundred straight-forward lines of code for them.
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to breakage you have to expect when running Gnome.
No screen readers for one thing since they can’t access other windows. You’ll find that most accessibility features require access to other windows in some manner.
I mean they can be made but it’s going to require reinventing a lot of wheels. You need access to other windows to make this (and lots of other stuff) work, period. Wayland has simply moved the burden of exposing that information to other layers. By the time this is accomplished 100% the information is going to be exposed just as much as on X11, just in a different way.
Because that’s like. the main feature about Wayland.
Is it? It has always seemed like a solution looking for a problem to me. When’s the last time you heard about anybody having a problem with this under X11?
In theory it can be used to do bad things. In practice it’s like wearing a helmet 24/7. It sounds like a good idea and it could help in case you’re in a car crash or a flower pot falls on your head… but the inconvenience makes you not seriously consider it.
My main problem with it is that they simply tossed the dead cat over the wall. You can’t simply say “fuck you deal with it” and call it a day, then expect all the rest of the stack to spend a decade solving the problem you created, while you get to look shiny for solving an “issue” that nobody cared about.
My other problem is that it should have been a toggle. Let people who really need to tighten security turn this feature on and let everybody else get on with their lives. Every other isolation feature on Linux (firewalls, AppArmor, containers etc.) is fully configurable. How would it be if your firewall was non-optional and set to DENY ALL all the time? It would be crazy unusable. Yet Wayland made that “the main feature”? Ridiculous.
Am I to understand correctly that if you are running Gtk+ apps in the Gnome compositor, you get this working, but if you are running non-Gnome compositor with Gtk+ apps, it will not work? Or is it independent of the compositor?
There’s a new accessibility framework being started by a Gnome developer very recently.
Which means, best case scenario where it’s perfect and other desktops buy in, it will roll out to traditional desktop users in half a decade at the earliest.
Making screenshots does, too, which is why that functionality gets implemented at the compositor level. And so will screenreaders. In fact looking at my settings panel KDE does have support for Orca. Dunno how well it’s working but it’s not like the issue is being ignored.
Programs can’t set position or size of windows, period, at most they can ask and then hope they don’t get ignored and it’s good that way. Window management is responsibility of the compositor, not of applications.
just another reason to use tiling window managers ;) at least mine opens my windows in the same workspace on the same output every time, if i configure it to
With Wayland, programs still can’t restore their window position or size. It sure would be nice if they could get basic functionality working.
Wayland is still incomplete, but that is besides the point I was making. X is still not dead, even living within XWayland, within Wayland. X11 is just one implementation of the X Protocol and XWayland is a new implementation.
Wayland itself is functional and working, just not 100% compatible to X11. The same could be said about X11, it would be nice if they could get some basic functionality working right; but they can’t, and that is why we need to replace it with something more modern and better. I think Wayland is working on a solution for restoring window position and size.
When X was created, there was no compatibility needed. Wayland on the other hand is in a different position, where it needs to innovate, make it more secure and keep as much as possible compatibility to X11, DEs and window managers. It’s just unfair to just say Wayland would not have basic functionality working. It also depends on the desktop environments and GNOME is often to blame for.
It will never be compatible with X because they are different designs. X relies on a central program (server) that accepts commands from programs. It is also a mess as it was built during the 80s for 80s hardware. It was expanded over time but you can only stretch the arch so far.
Wayland doesn’t have a server. You desktop talks to the hardware and then the desktop accepts connections from apps.
GNOME catching a devious stray there for no reason
That does not seem to be a stray and yes there’s definitely reasons to take potshots at Gnome. They still don’t support server-side decorations. Everyone is absolutely fine with them not wanting to use them in their own apps, have them draw window decorations themselves, and every other DE lets gnome apps do exactly that, but Gnome is steadfastly and pointlessly refusing to draw decorations for apps which don’t want to draw their own decorations. It’d be like a hundred straight-forward lines of code for them.
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to breakage you have to expect when running Gnome.
I generally speaking like most of the other things you say on lemmy, so I’m just gonna agree to disagree and move on. Have a nice day
Oh noooooooo not a single QOL feature
And Wayland accessibility is very bad.
How come?
No screen readers for one thing since they can’t access other windows. You’ll find that most accessibility features require access to other windows in some manner.
Is it that none exist or that none can be made? Because that’s like. the main feature about Wayland.
I mean they can be made but it’s going to require reinventing a lot of wheels. You need access to other windows to make this (and lots of other stuff) work, period. Wayland has simply moved the burden of exposing that information to other layers. By the time this is accomplished 100% the information is going to be exposed just as much as on X11, just in a different way.
Is it? It has always seemed like a solution looking for a problem to me. When’s the last time you heard about anybody having a problem with this under X11?
In theory it can be used to do bad things. In practice it’s like wearing a helmet 24/7. It sounds like a good idea and it could help in case you’re in a car crash or a flower pot falls on your head… but the inconvenience makes you not seriously consider it.
My main problem with it is that they simply tossed the dead cat over the wall. You can’t simply say “fuck you deal with it” and call it a day, then expect all the rest of the stack to spend a decade solving the problem you created, while you get to look shiny for solving an “issue” that nobody cared about.
My other problem is that it should have been a toggle. Let people who really need to tighten security turn this feature on and let everybody else get on with their lives. Every other isolation feature on Linux (firewalls, AppArmor, containers etc.) is fully configurable. How would it be if your firewall was non-optional and set to DENY ALL all the time? It would be crazy unusable. Yet Wayland made that “the main feature”? Ridiculous.
They can, and are being made. E.g. the state of accessibility on Gome.
Am I to understand correctly that if you are running Gtk+ apps in the Gnome compositor, you get this working, but if you are running non-Gnome compositor with Gtk+ apps, it will not work? Or is it independent of the compositor?
There’s a new accessibility framework being started by a Gnome developer very recently.
Which means, best case scenario where it’s perfect and other desktops buy in, it will roll out to traditional desktop users in half a decade at the earliest.
Then keep using Xorg if you need it.
I think the desktop itself does that. For instance Gnome is working on accessibility
it’s opt-in, per app. Meaning unless old apps are patched and recompiled, they will be inaccessible.
Making screenshots does, too, which is why that functionality gets implemented at the compositor level. And so will screenreaders. In fact looking at my settings panel KDE does have support for Orca. Dunno how well it’s working but it’s not like the issue is being ignored.
that’s not basic funcionality
This is undesired behavior, it should be controlled by window managers not applications
I for one want my windows tiled and tabbed
Of course apps can and do restore their window sizes. Don’t spread misinformation
Programs can’t set position or size of windows, period, at most they can ask and then hope they don’t get ignored and it’s good that way. Window management is responsibility of the compositor, not of applications.
At least KDE has support for it that’s about on X11 level, a proper-proper solution is still in the pipeline. And yes you’re seeing right it’s been there for four years.
ELI5: what does this mean for the end user? Is there any simple test I can do with both to see this?
it means that you have to manually reposition every single window, every single time. for any and all apps, by design
just another reason to use tiling window managers ;) at least mine opens my windows in the same workspace on the same output every time, if i configure it to
Explains why I was having issues with this in Gnome on my HTPC…
Ended up making a remote button shortcut to maximise and restore apps
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it