I have been a lurker here on lemmy for a while and I have hesitantly made an account because I wanted to create a post on politics.
I want to preface this by saying, I lived a childhood being indoctrinated on politics. I was constantly being told that free markets are the pinnacle of human intellect and that free markets (in literally an absolutist way on every aspect of life) is the only way that leads to progress. It honestly took me a while to challenge these beliefs with I attribute to Shaun and Hbomberguy on youtube, and eventually embrace leftist ideas in my personality.
When the recent drama regarding the Uighur muslims occured recently I was a bit let down. I have looked around and saw posts that I understand to be supportive of the CCP in China and other communist states.
So here is my question. Why? Even if we forget about the Uighur, what about the Tianamen square massacre? Is that also false information? China’s tightening grip on hong kong despite being met with resistance from people of Hong Kong, is that also false information? The repercussions of Mao’s leadership? The complete absence of gay and trans rights in modern day China? China being a police state? Is that all false propaganda?
If your answer might be that western states have also failed to protect the interests of common people, I agree. I think western states do see a resurgence of far right movements exactly for this reason. But this is not a comparison of who is the worst.
Why exactly do people here (at least that is what I perceive) turn a blind eye to the brutalities of an authoritarian government such as the CCP?
How do you define support? Have you looked into dialectical materialism? One can support *an entity and still see the contradictions, and still strive for the resolution of these contradictions. This is said a lot - communism is not a religion. It is not a static set of rules and principles. It is a science, and it aims to resolve the contradictions of capitalism through materialist means. We should not succumb to the black and white dichotomy that monotheism has been instilling into us.
When I say support, I want to describe the “western propaganda” argument. That my perspective is skewed because I have only been influenced by media in European countries (where I live) and the US.
I mean, ok, I can make an attempt to reconsider. But then I see the same pattern. “Incident A” was not as bad as portrayed by media, “Incident B” the same, and so on. It ends up demanding that I change my perspective of history, which I am not willing to do, because it really is too much to ask for.
I am sure that upon examination of history, people here will unequivocally condemn the massacre that happened in Nanking during WW2 by the then japanese imperial army. But when discussing the tianamen square massacre, it was suddenly not that bad?
This gives me exactly the same feeling as nationalist apologia. We were the good guys when we inhabited this land (completely neglecting possible harm to others), and other nations were bad when they attacked our beautiful country.
It ends up demanding that I change my perspective of history, which I am not willing to do, because it really is too much to ask for.
You deliberately choose not to re-examine the legitimacy of claims made by your sources, and then accuses us of holding extremist beliefs 🙃.
people here will unequivocally condemn the massacre that happened in Nanking during WW2 by the then japanese imperial army. But when discussing the tianamen square massacre, it was suddenly not that bad?
How is this even comparable?? what do you think happened in Tiananmen Square?
What I think happened in tianamen square aligns with the wikipedia article on it.
I transparently said that I can attempt to reconsider my perspective. A demand to reconsider my perspective repeatedly on the argument that I only read the “western propaganda”, is too much to ask for.
I can go ahead and admit that there is no cultural cleansing of Uighur muslims. Next talking point, the tianamen square. Again, “western propaganda”, it did not happen. The Maoist era? Again, it is intentionally portrayed as horrific by media, therefore “western propaganda”.
I do not accept to change my mindset and perception under a repeated, and frankly easy to abuse argument, that it is all some CIA conspiracy.
Oh, OK I misread your argument, you’re right that ‘everything is western propaganda’ is not a good argument. But that’s not the sole basis of our historical analysis it’s just an important part of it. I’ll provide you a learning list on the Uyghur topic to demonstrate this
The Truth behind the Uyghur problem
We don’t dismiss every bad thing socialist countries did as western propaganda, it’s understable why you might think that since most of these ‘bad things’ are just western propaganda, there are legitimate criticisms of the CPC, other Socialist countries and their leaders, we acknowledge that, we don’t think those mistakes define them. and most importantly we won’t let those mistakes overshadow the great achievements they made for our movement.
I went through some of the links. To be honest, no matters the sources, I don’t think I can let myself trust viewpoints that align with highly authoritarian entities. I believe that you share the links in good faith, but that is a world view that I prefer to stay away from.
On the other hand I am more than willing to discuss socialism, in fact book recommendations would be welcome.
Can you tell me what happened in what you call the Tiananmen Square massacre?
1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre … “Estimates of the death toll vary from several hundred to several thousand, with thousands more wounded.”
… “Considered a watershed event, reaction to the protests set limits on political expression in China, limits that have lasted up to the present day.”First of all, that estimate ranges from several hundred to several thousand. Doesn’t that seem odd.
Secondly, I would like people who actively point fingers at this massacre to paint a more tangible picture of the events that happened. Who were the protestors and what were they protesting against? Who were they allied with and what means did they use to try and achieve their goals? Why should those condemning this massacre (in which no one died in the Square itself) just throw the eight words of “but what about the Tiananmen Square massacre”, along with a Wikipedia page that is filled from top to bottom with western sources and be absolved from having to support their position?
I am not and Wikipedia is not Chinese. I realized that it’s better that Chinese solve this question for themselves.
Wikipedia is not a correct source of information on politics that conflicts with Anglo imperialist empire.
A recent controversy regarding Wikimedia and Chinese editors happened: https://hongkongfp.com/2021/09/14/exclusive-wikipedia-bans-7-mainland-chinese-power-users-over-infiltration-and-exploitation-in-unprecedented-clampdown/ and https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/6ANVSSZWOGH27OXAIN2XMJ2X7NWRVURF/
👍
In order to fully understand the processes of communist thought you have to look at the history and the reasons things happen (see Hegel). Why did Mao’s movement take a hard stance on landlords and property owners, and aristocrats? Because landed classes always come back from exile to claim what’s “rightfully theirs” (see 19th century French monarchs or the Kuomintang in Taiwan). When East and West Germany merged 30 years ago, thousands of landlords and property owners flooded back in and evicted thousands of East Germans from their homes. Some of these lawsuits are still going. As a result of the maoist purges, 90% of Chinese people own their homes vs. 65% in the US or 58% in South Korea.
Now consider the situation with education centers in Xinjiang. Look at which countries border this province: Afghanistan and Pakistan. Both of these places have been extensively involved in US conflict with the Soviet Union and the War on Terror. Extremist groups in these regions (Mujahideen, Taliban, and ISIS) were trained with American funding and with American equipment to A. Remove Afghanistan’s communist govt from power in the 90s and B. destabilize the region in a 20 year war for resource extraction and arms dealing.
The War on Terror is important because ISIS and similar groups have filtered into China, which responded by cracking down on violent religious extremists in order to prevent any caliphates from appearing in their borders. There are numerous posts here and on other communist sympathetic sites on how Chinese mistreatment is overblown. If you trace back through secondary sources enough times you tend to arrive at Adrian Zenz who is a warmongering conservative. And if proponents of the idea that China is committing an actual genocide are pressed, they can’t turn up any actual evidence for it. Every Xinjiang concentration camp I’ve seen ends up being a photo of a prison in South America or the US.
Hong Kong is bit more complicated and can’t be effectively summarized in one post. But to put it bluntly, the US and UK have a vested interest in rotting the CCP from the inside out so that they can paternalistically turn it back into a colony. I’ve even seen posts on reddit and heard self-proclaimed libs in real life parrot the talking point that China should be turned “back into a third world country.” Hong Kong’s independence is about lassaiz-faire capitalism and big business tied into its historical status as a territory of the UK, not individual rights.
Tiananmen Square could be an entire book. The Party fumbled handling an anti-corruption protest. The core group was Pro-America and advocated the dissolution of the Party, but most participants weren’t aware of this and they switched slogans in large crowds. Party officials attempted to talk it out for several months and listen to their demands, but they didn’t seem to find any resolution acceptable and the situation turned chaotic. The military relatively peacefully cleared the square, but some time afterward a group of about 300-500 decided to take on the army. Western media blew this completely out of proportion, painting the situation as a bloodbath where thousands died. In this scenario the party fucked up, but the protests themselves were rudderless and reactionary (to most ML readers, this feels sus like the Jan 6 riots). They didn’t incur followup protests as one tends to see elsewhere, and they didn’t seem to increase anti-party sentiment in the long term.
As an aside, I’m an anarchist. I don’t think any state is infallible, and anyone that claims a state to be infallible has some greater ideological issues to work through. But once you sift through the dreck of exaggerated news article and info manipulation, the CCP seems significantly less (emphasis on the less) terrible than western countries that people treat as infallible bastions of freedom and fairness. China may openly censor their press, but they don’t fund plantation slavery in Africa, they don’t send Pinochet in to assassinate your president, they have actual functioning poverty alleviation programs based on heavily taxing the rich, and they have an actual functioning process in place to combat global warming (the green new deal hasn’t even been drafted yet in tje US).
If leftists don’t at least do a lukewarm defense of Marxist countries then liberals will see it as a failed project. Instead it is a political experiment that’s still in progress and actively gets less violent and more stable over time.
I read your entire response, and my brief follow up is this. I don’t like or defend the US involvement in any country they have intentionally destabilized.
On the other hand, I cannot accept an answer such as, “you have only read the western propaganda”. You are asking me to deny any credibility of sources coming from western nations, either state media or independent. Even if there exist inaccuracies, I am not willing to just change my perspective just because of “western propaganda”. It really is too much to ask for.
And to add to add further to this, I remember another comment of yours saying you are trans (just to be clear I love and support trans people). Are you not concerned at all for the absence of gay or trans rights in china?
Can you explain to me how LGBT rights do not exist in mainland? Last I heard, LGBT rights were legally approved long ago, and the only controversy in recent times happened with a local court which was nullified by the higher authorities.
As for Tiananmen Square, let me shatter the propaganda you have seen with a picture that started the so-called massacre, and a tankman video clip from CNN Crew.
pictures of what Western media and Reuters did not show you
Tankman crushed? CNN footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFzeNAHEhU
It’s a counter-reaction to western politics I think. Don’t underestimate that factor, even if you think this explanation is too simple. A lot of peeple here will like socialist ideas to spite of American healthcare and insurance costs and such. I doubt anyone in the right mind would support the rule of terror.
So here is my question. Why?
The main reason is that the lead developers are Marxist-Leninists (aka tankies), and so they attract fellows tankies to join their platform.
Why people hold onto such believes varies from case to case, but I make the following observation:
Political positions are still widely understood as singular dichotomous (left/right), as extremes that oppose each other. If you don’t like what is presented on the one site, you tend to choose what is opposing it. And so does this political compass also present one authoritarian position as a solution for another authoritarian position.
Many grown up in the so called west, have been grown up within a propaganda machine that presents itself as the protectorate for human right. As soon as you begin to research into post-colonialism, their war-crimes, their exploitation through capitalism you’ll notice that it’s nothing but a lie. And then you gonna look for answers why that is, and what alternatives there are.
The so called west has made lot’s of campaigns against communism. While at this point you are well aware that “the west” spreads lies, you might start to study communism.
You’ve grown up in an nationalist reality. Nearly everything is divided among nations with top down command chains. Alternatives to organize society in large scale without such authoritarian tendencies are underrepresented. Even so there are many examples, you don’t learn about them in school and you barley read about them in history books.
Conspiracy theories are attractive, as they present simplified reality that is easier to understand, offer often a clear defined enemy and a solution. They usually also offer an answer if challenged, that will continue to uphold the conspiracy thinking. Once you’re in, it gonna be hard to break through. In terms of tankies, criticism of their ideology often result in answers like: “this is cia propaganda”, “you are a shit lib”.
If you ask this on [email protected] , you’ll likely get more cordial and patient answers than you’re expecting.
Oopsie whoopsie, they just quit the discussion upon having a debate with me, and deleted account.
I get you man. I am from Venezuela, and i was raised into a very leftist environment, and Leftist indoctrination since i was little. But then my country collapsed, and the crisis was very hard, so i had an identity crisis, and started to question all the propaganda i was thought. Also I absolutely hate the right wing, they have their own indoctrination methods, but I also hate tankies who supports my country’s dictatorship at all cost. The thing about political extremist, is that they will justify anything what their side does, genocide, repression, famines, invasions, while criticize the other side for the exact same things. There are no good guys in politics, or history, everyone has numerous shades of shitty behavior, and everyone will point at their enemies for doing the exact same thing they do, in order to drive away their followers attention and make them ignore their own crimes.
My stands are, to do NEVER support dictatorships: China, Cuba, Russia, the URSS, Nazi Germany, Franco’s Spain, Pinochet’s Chile, maduro, etc. I’m the end, every dictatorship is inmoral to defend, no matter is a left or right wing one, that’s something that tankies do not understand, or don’t want to see. Also, 2 things can be truth are the same time: Yes, the USA, is a colonialist genocidal state with too much military power that attacks others countries sovereignty in order to protects their own interest. So does china. Both things are truth, but is you talk to tankies or US nationalist, they will say that their side does nothing wrong.
Also, no human is worthy is being treated like a god. All humans are shitty beings, even more if they have power, no person with power is a good person, period.
I hope this might help you. Never go to the extremes.
All extremists act the same way. They shelter themselves in a few strong beliefs, and hate whatever is different, different opinions, etc. Look at the nazis, fascists, communists, anarchists, this is all the same. This is why politics suck, because it’s basically a mean for people to be divided, make clans and hate each other.
This sounds like an extreme strong political believe you hold that does not allow any nuance.
I’m an anarchist, and there are many communists I get well along with, except for the authoritarian branch of communism.
I guess I worded my sentence weirdly. If you get along with other people with a different mindset, then you’re definitely not an extremist. What I criticize is extremism, not necessarily every ideology. The problem is when it becomes an extreme, that makes you hate others, etc.
deleted, oopsWhy exactly do people here (at least that is what I perceive) turn a blind eye to the brutalities of an authoritarian government such as the CCP?
cause there is no brutality, you have fallen for western media propaganda
Why exactly do people here (at least that is what I perceive) turn a blind eye to the brutalities of an authoritarian government such as the CCP?
Because your perception is one sided and taught by one side (Anglo imperialists), incidentally. Looking at your responses, you will never question your own position and then complain about the issues about understanding the position of people here. Someone not willing to self critique their own position on topics will never learn more than whatever they know, regardless of if it is right or wrong.
