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EU antitrust chief to Tim Cook: Apple must allow third-party app stores::The European Union’s Margrethe Vestager has met with leaders of US Big Tech firms to discuss their operations in the EU, and with Apple’s Tim Cook concentrated on the App Store and Apple Music.
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The EU is literally the only major entity actually trying at this point. Thank you!
Actually a bunch of other countries are considering the same thing. Including the USA.
Yea, but they only copy EU, which does the hard work. So I bet nobody would do anything, if EU wouldn’t.
Here’s the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:
The Brussels effect is the process of unilateral regulatory globalisation caused by the European Union de facto (but not necessarily de jure) externalising its laws outside its borders through market mechanisms. Through the Brussels effect, regulated entities, especially corporations, end up complying with EU laws even outside the EU for a variety of reasons.
People should move to EU
More nations should join the EU.
And NATO.
How’s NATO gonna join the EU?
we’re gonna make it work. Technically all the Members are either European or were at some part european (colonies) so you’re welcome, you can enter.
Y’all seem to be doing fine without my vote… The United States on the other hand… Definitely needs to keep my vote…
I’m already planning to do that, but the Schengen Area imposes visa restrictions on us, and there’s a 20% chance I’ll get denied anyway.
And no, the country that I wanna go to is not the Netherlands, despite my username looking like someone from that country. I still like it doe.
There’s already too many non Europeans in Europe.
that’s okay. When yo live in a capitalist economy where globalization plays an important part , you can’t choose who can come and who can’t. The power is not with you or me to decide. We can whine but that’s about it.
The only third party store that should be allowed is fdroid (or fios ig), everything else that is sideloaded is either malware or pirated apps
pirated apps
oh woes.
This community encourages such incredible depth and discourse. Keep it up, folks!Edit: whoops, posted this on the wrong community. Yay, piracy!
You don’t like free stuff? Piracy is the only way. Ahoy!! 🏴☠️🦜
Ofc i do, i won’t have jackshit in my jellyfin without it. But apps, nah…cracked apps are full of shit
And as they are opened up major companies can go to them for better deals allowing for the free market to work as intended.
Android has sideloading, does google take a lower cut than apple? No. Even with sideloading allowed, 99% people don’t use it, majority android users probably don’t even know about this thing called apks.
The option is there. Windows has an open platform, do you buy all your software and games through Microsoft or do you use the developer’s website and third party launchers that have to compete on experience pricing?
Whether they are used or not doesn’t matter, the first step is opening it up. And there are multiple apps that I get through alternative stores than the play store and it benefits the developer more so I don’t really care what the other 99% are up to.
Thats because windows didn’t have a store before 8, so everybody is used to downloading exe. And even today there isn’t much on windows store. And i am not agaisnt sideloading, but there should be some safety measures too (maybe thats why windows needs antivirus?) to idiot proof sideloading. F droid is a great example of what sideloading should be.
So in the case that you are arguing there would be safeguards…you could continue to use the app store unhindered.
People should be free to install what they want, if they end up with malware that is their problem I’m not giving 30% to Apple because fuckwits can’t excercise caution and educate themselves.
F droid is exactly what we are arguing for in this case, literally the exact thing this side of the argument is trying to make Apple facilitate.
If poor security practices only affected those responsible, I might agree with you on that front. As shown from the 23andMe “breach” and also how botnets are formed, individuals’ poor security practices can affect many more people than just themselves. I feel we have a responsibility to protect people from doing stupid things, even if that might not be the most free thing to do.
Android has sideloading and Google takes 30% cut too. Sideloading is pointless if majority people don’t know about it. Google for example will give you a fat warning if when you install f droid…oh this shit danger bro…don’t install it. Yeah, it is dangerous …for your business. Apple will do the same, oh technically we allow sideloading EU. And they will keep fearmongering. That is why this mentality of people that sideloading is alway bad needs to go away, for that only store like f droid should be allowed.
So you’re argument is that because we can’t get to perfect we shouldn’t even bother trying good?
Competition regulators can mandate that large companies make their service available on multiple storefronts in the future but now we need them to mandate multiple storefronts.
The regulators can prevent Google from making it more difficult to use an alternative store. These are iterative changes.
If you look at macOS, you see that even apps not installed through the app store need to be signed from apple in order to not trigger a big ass warning. Apple on it’s own proofs that the security aspect is not an argument. Edit: I think windows does this as well to some degree
Windoss doesn’t do jack shit, that defender crap will block good cracked apps but won’t block actual malware. No wonder windows has bad rep about about virus, security etc
This just isn’t true. Defender is pretty much all you need to prevent malware these days.
Yes, cracks and such are also caught up in them, but that’s true of virtually every antivirus.
Software on Windows is still a bit of a mess compared to most other platforms though. The fact that it is normalized to download and install things from the various developer websites, without much verification and without permissions/restrictions on what the apps can do is not a plus in my mind. winget has been helpful in managing the installation and updating of things though.
Everyone having their own launcher is also not great, especially since they are not all created equal with respect to features, stability, and resource consumption. Games have had this problem for some time with EA, Ubisoft, Epic, etc having their own launchers. As like what happened to games, I don’t think it will necessarily end up with more freedom to buy the apps from the store you want, but rather you’ll be forced to download a store/launcher based on the whims of the app publisher. Some may publish to multiple stores but I don’t expect all to.
If the mandate to open the platform up to more stores came with some kind of requirement that apps be available across multiple stores so that the stores actually had to be competitive on their own features, not app exclusivity, I would be more inclined to support having more stores.
You can’t mandate that until there are multiple storefronts. That should be the next step.
As for everyone making you use their own app store, that will go down just as well as people who make me install their app, I won’t.
Multiple storefronts doesn’t mean taking a single app away from the app store. It means you can subscribe to Spotify for 30% less by using an alternative. It means developer’s can argue for a larger cut of their revenue simply by having alternatives.
As for individual game launchers, steam is far and away the most popular and well liked and it, with the exception of a few of their own titles, a third party launcher.
Competition is good for the consumer.
Yea, because with cydia zebra and sileo, you can only install malware /s
thats not what i meant, i meant that it just opens the door for malware. And even with android, how many people actually install apks? Not many, bcs everything is there on the play store.
Have a read of this: https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/19/all-the-changes-coming-to-google-play-and-sideloading-following-700m-settlement/
Sideloading is a lot harder on Android than it should be.
You just have to open the apk and click install, how is thay hard?
No, thank you. I will continue to use Apple’s App Store. What made me switch to the iPhone was the fact that I could trust the apps in the App Store. I knew there was no chance of downloading malware. It’s a liberating experience.
I don’t want it to be like Android.
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Nobody is asking you yet. Once it becomes an option I guarantee some apps will decide that they’d prefer to use a third party store over the App Store and if that happens to be an app you use then you are essentially being asked to use other app stores.
This isn’t advocating for or against it, I’m just saying that if you think that this is purely additive and those who don’t want it can just not interact with it and get the same experience they have today then you’re being naive.
Regardless, it’s going to be interesting to watch. Smaller niche apps that don’t need discoverability will probably benefit, since if you need a niche app for something you’re probably prepared to put the effort into using a third party store. Large apps I suspect will go a hybrid model if they do anything at all (use both the App Store and a third party store, with the third party store having a lower price, although I guarantee it won’t be 30% less), and stuff in between will likely stay on the App Store unless there’s enough of a network effect to get enough users to a third party store to make it worth switching.
App developers are unlikely to take themselves off the Apple store it would remove themselves from a huge portion of the market they developed an iOS app for.
But they will find third party stores taking a smaller cut than Apple does. They will pass on some of that saving to the customer or find a way to encourage you not to use the Apple store if they get to keep a higher cut. Like earlier updates and feature releases.
That’s the point. Apple currently has a controlling monopoly on a market. Competition will lower prices for the consumer.
Anti-trust laws exist to do exactly this.
All it will take is a trustworthy company to launch a 3rd party app store. Then maybe you won’t mind.
Some companies like Cisco might just launch a store instead of putting their apps through Apple as they would like higher security than the App store provides.
Apple will also be forced into a competition to be the most secure app store too.
The likelihood is they’ll just play with the margins and do what’s necessary to keep a near monopoly but the possibility of competition is useful in itself. At the moment there isn’t even that.
All it will take is a trustworthy company to launch a 3rd party app store.
This really is the key to this being successful I think. Right now a lot of the nervousness around opening iOS is because of the fact that people (rightly or wrongly) trust and have a relationship with Apple.
The people who are concerned about third party app stores really are worried about the implication of having to trust a new third party with their device, their payment details, their personal info, etc.
Put someone reputable behind an alternative and it becomes an easier sell.
Well, do you see it happening on Android for any major app except Fortnite?
That’s fair, and I admit it’s one possible outcome of all this. I just think that if the EU mandates that both Apple and Google have to support them that it’s going to shift the needle on it as the alternative infrastructure will be properly supported on every major platform. As you get that infrastructure, get payment providers in place to drive it all, the friction of switching will drop, which makes it a more appealing option for developers.
Nobody is asking you yet.
🥱
Are you a 🤡 or a 🧌?
Using the same logic: just don’t participate by not purchasing an apple product. There are alternatives out there, buy an android. I enjoy my walled garden, it’s a feature that I pay a premium for.
Enter everyone to tell me why I’m wrong and/or stupid (see replies below).
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Name calling, good to see we’re keeping it classy
I got given an iPhone, owning a branded product isn’t as much of a choice as you’d think. And it really doesn’t change anything for you since you’d have to actively go out of your way normally to use a 3rd party app store. The walled garden is still there unless you go exploring.
The barrier to entry for an android is incredibly low. You could trade in your iPhone to get an android. There is choice in the market place, exercise your own freedom and switch to android
I really get it man, I was originally not gonna take the offer (it was a take it or leave it, not a situation I could sell it) since I love all the open systems android uses. Unfortunately, I’ve been buying androids for the vast majority of my life and they just haven’t been that usable for me. It’s not like I’m giving money to apple anyway since I’m not buying anything from them and I would really benefit from 3rd party apps since I used to use them on a daily basis on my android.
I won’t call you names but this literally doesn’t make any sense to me. In no way would the apple app store be affected, your walled garden is safe. To (attempt to) extend the metaphor, this is like giving you the option to take walks in other gardens, but your walled garden is still where you left it, gate locked.
Thank you, I appreciate your response.
I just wish someone could explain to me the benefits of doing this? Who stands to benefit financially? Who are the stakeholders? Why can webapps not be used instead? Do side loaded apps have access to apples APIs, do webapps not? Can apple, like Reddit charge for use of said APIs?
Also, why does everyone seem to portray such a personal stance on the subject, how would allowing side apps benefit any of those who have downvoted me in their day to day lives.
Apple is interested in maintaining full control of what apps can be on their platform and how they are presented because it gives them power over negotiations with companies that build the apps. They are basically able to “name their price” and make sure they are always getting as big of a cut as they would like.
The EU is interested in not letting them do that because that kind of “negotiating” behavior is pretty well understood to be anti-consumer. Increased costs for app developers are usually passed directly onto the consumer through the prices. And it tends to get worse over time.
No company anywhere wants to use webapps anymore. Apps installed on devices are free advertising and access to user data. It is frustrating but the way it is, on all devices, already. So basically the answer is the same as why can’t most apps that already exist on all devices anyways just be web apps.
I don’t think sideloaded would be quite the right word, this is about access to other app stores (like the google play store or amazon app store, or more niche ones) that would then formally and automatically install and maintain apps exactly the same way the apple app store already does, presumably just with a different library of apps to choose from.
Apps from another app store would need no access to any API by apple unless they were specifically interacting with apple services, AFAIK. Which, would be under the full control of apple and apple chooses who uses it, how, and how much they use it, but that is already the case regardless.
I tried to answer your confusions as best as I can do with what I know already. As for why people take this so personally, I would say it is a complex topic combining businesses that are constantly trying to drive each other out of business with the social effects of making the tool people use to communicate a status symbol. And it has been brewing for long enough that people are getting extreme opinions and fostering long term grudges based on personal experience, to the point that some people have some real hatred towards anyone who has a different phone OS than them.
This was a long comment to type and I did it while laying in bed half asleep. Sorry if it has a bunch of typos or errors lol
These are weird questions.
Who stands to benefit financially?
The developer, if they are distributing themselves. Also potentially no one. That shouldn’t really be a concern though, why are you concerned with what seems to amount to “someone needs to be making money off me, I want it to be Apple!”
Who are the stakeholders?
Again, literally anyone or no one.
Why can webapps not be used instead?
Why can’t you use a web app for all your PC applications? Because native APis are always going to be more expansive than what is made available to a web UI.
Do side loaded apps have access to apples APIs, do webapps not?
It’s a mixed bag. Some yes, some no. But you’re generally going to be able to do more with native apps than a web app.
Can apple, like Reddit charge for use of said APIs?
Why… would you charge for local API access? You’re paying for the hardware, you’re paying for the computation time, you’re paying for the electricity, why would Apple get paid?
Also, why does everyone seem to portray such a personal stance on the subject, how would allowing side apps benefit any of those who have downvoted me in their day to day lives.
Apple explicitly doesn’t allow certain kinds of apps on the App Store. Many of those can be replicated in a web app, but not all. One easy example is game emulation. You can do some emulation in a web app, but the performance isn’t going to be great. You can sideload an app that does it better, and you can actually force load with a different flag to have them work even better than that. One such emulator is Delta.
I’m a little concerned on your line of questioning honestly. It seems like you’re extremely concerned that the (first or second depending on the day) largest company in the world is going to lose out on a little money. Why are you so invested in them making money? How does Apple making more money benefit you in your day to day life?
I’ve been on android for 10+ years and never downloaded malware.
Don’t try to download cracked apps and you’ll be fine.
There have been some genuine apps that then download malware in the background, often after months.
But the same thing exists on the apple store.
I was going to say something similar, if you use the play Store you’re about as safe as you use the Apple app Store. They do the same kind of checks. Some apps that are allowed I would not personally install as I consider them spyware (like TikTok or anything by Meta).
You should always be considerate what you Install, if you Install a video call app that needs camera permission fine, if you Install a digital clock app that needs camera permission not fine at all.
No freedom to choose
“Liberating”
Uh huh. Try thinking about other people. Just because you don’t want freedom doesn’t mean other people don’t deserve it. You can always just choose to stick to Apple’s crap if you really want to. But right now, people can’t choose what they want because gaining control over their own damn device is so difficult by design. That’s the point.
https://www.wired.com/story/apple-app-store-malware-click-fraud/
https://nypost.com/2024/01/02/tech/smartphone-users-warned-to-delete-these-17-dangerous-apps/
Now you will say, but I god-like smurt (smart), I wunt (won’t) download this, ofviously (obviously).
So do. Just because you only want one shop doesn’t mean other should have to shop there.
Try thinking of other people and how you might differ from them.
Lol, there IS some malware in the App Store and there is not more malware in the playstore.
Only difference, on android it is easy to sideload, for example, emulators. And that there exists an alternative opensource app store (Fdroid)
No one is forcing you to use another app store. I’m sure the operating system will also allow you to turn off apps from unknown sources just like Android. More options for other people is not a bad thing. People paid for the device, they should be able to use it however they wish.
I’d be more worried about every company trying to force their users into using their own store to access their apps.
Don’t you think app developers should have the freedom of choice for app stores? Android has multiple places to get apps, lots of FOSS apps aren’t on play store, and likely aren’t on iOS at all. Having the option for 3rd party store gives not just users, but developers too, an option and access to more apps/users that wouldn’t otherwise be available. You want safe secure apps, that’s all good.
You mentioned that an app might move away from the app store to a 3rd party store, if you already use and trust that developer’s product how will having to get it from a different location change that?
Now, not to sound too harsh, but why your convenience of not having to go get another store more important than a devs ability to host their product in a different location?Simp harder for daddy
All these corporations just getting greedy. There will be a pirated app store and I will be the first to endorse it!!
Yep right
Here’s 10 malware for iOS that don’t involve using a store
https://macpaw.com/amp/how-to/most-common-iphone-viruses
And then an article about malware from iOS store - for now hoping it’s not click bait, I’ll read it after work
https://lifehacker.com/great-now-the-apple-app-store-has-malware-too-1849386738
I don’t think anyone would be forcing you to use a different app store.
This would just make the option available for those who want to.
