I live in France, about 30 minutes from a major city. There is transit, but it’s not good, and has very few stops near where I live. Grocery shopping has to be done by car or bike as there aren’t any shops in the village. European cities are extremely well served by transit, but outside the metropolitan areas, cars are still king.
It’s a really interesting thread. Cities are great, suburb & rural can be great and transit is great. 15 minute cities are great goals, but it’s not a one size fits all situation. I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist? Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard? Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people. They’re either right out of school or trolling, I can’t tell which.
It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist?
As a handicapped person myself, it really baffles me how people think car oriented infrastructure is so much better for us. I am a wheelchair user, and I live in a 15 minute neighborhood. Getting around in my wheelchair is a million times simpler there than in my old car-centric suburb, because the same disabilities that make me wheelchair bound also prevent me from driving. Which mean that in a car-centric environment I do one of the following:
a) Rely on the generosity of friends and family to cart me around at their convenience, or
b) Utilize shared access rides, which are door to door, but take longer than using public transit, or
c) Roll myself to underserved suburban bus stops over badly maintained sidewalk, and pray I make it on time.
None of which are appealing.
Meanwhile, in my 15 minute city:
The buses often run at 10 to 15 minute intervals (vs 30 to 60 minutes in the suburb),
You never even seen the Netherlands, have you? Also, what I tell everyone who comes up with these kind of non-questions, no one is taking your car away. Cars still exist in Europe, but they are not the default, they are used for what they make sense, making irregular trips of 100+Km. But chances are, that there is a train that serves the route anyway.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
Kids: My sister lives in the outskirts of Madrid, her neighborhood is littered with dozens of parks of all kinds, all less than 10 minute walks. My 10 y.o. nephew can go on his own to many parks without ever having to set foot on asphalt, cross a road or get on neither a bus or a car. He has never had to play on a street. They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
The first time I went to Amsterdam I was very surprised to see children just wandering about coming from or going to a nearby park. It’s not something you really see here in the US.
Not anymore. It used to be the rule in the US. Even as recently as the 70s and 80s when I was a kid, we’d be gone from home all day everyday when not in school, just roaming around town and keeping ourselves entertained, usually on bikes or skateboards. We got up to a lot of mischief and hijinks, but nothing too serious, and we had a great time doing it.
You might want to go through my comments again, lol. You seem very upset about me somewhat disagreeing with you.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
This comment really is funny when you look at it. First you’re pretty patronizing that they have access to the bike lanes too! I know in Seattle, you’d be crazy to use the bike lanes if you were handicapped. And 15 minute cites usually have “walkable” in the tagline.
They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
Great, now compare that to a mini or studio apartment in Seattle. Better yet, compare that to an apartment on the South side of Chicago. As like anything else, if you’re wealthy (not poor or middle class), everything is awesome.
I don’t know why you’re arguing with me, your black and white stance is confusing and tone deaf.
My family is quite the opposite of wealthy. It has nothing to do with class. The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work. I read the whole thread and you seem to be either really confused or rather short of reading comprehension. You seem to have the impression that a bike lane is an asphalt gutter next to the cars where only athletic young men in full sport gear ride bicycles. But in Europe bike lanes are segregated wide, well conditioned spaces, where kids, people with mobility limitations, adults and elderly all share a slow speed lane safe and protected from cars.
The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work.
I’m not saying they don’t? Wow, there must be a language barrier or something. I’m saying yes they can and do work, but some people want something else.
Yeah, and the people who want something else use the same arguments and rhetoric questions you have used all over this thread that are all fallacies meant to shutdown promotion of the concept because they feel personally threatened by the idea of stopping oil dependence.
LMAO, no. I’m not trying to shut down anyone. I’m trying to say that you guys are naive to think that everyone wants to live in a walkable city. I think a good portion of young people do, which is great and they should be accommodated. You also need transit to support those walkable cities or do you think getting there if you don’t live there, magically happens without cars. Please don’t tell me you’re an urban planner.
You are not trying to shut anything down, but spreading the arguments that are meaningless you don’t exactly help the idea of walkable cities and distract from your own main point that different people need different things.
But if we return to your main point as you state it, it begs a question of how many people really want that different thing. I would say that this requires a research rather than a debate, but my guess is that the ones that want a house in the forest in the middle of nowhere are going to be a statistic outliers. The rest are going to likely be distributed normally between very dense and very sparse but most will likely fit into 15-minute city dense
Handicapped people are more affected by the inverse. Small cities are great, car-centric communes are terrible for them. They’ve worked out their own mobility issues, but those solutions are interrupted when the crosswalks and pedestrian bridges are affected. If the “solution” involves getting in and out of a car repeatedly, it’s often cumbersome for people in wheelchairs.
The point on kids really relates more to neighborhood safety, and how often people interact with a community. Often, kids should be trusted to go down the street to the park. All our old Saturday newspaper comics involve kids going places themselves on foot or bike instead of constantly “being dropped off”.
I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird
Isn’t the assumption that the 15 minute city is a neighbourhood in a functional city? There should be transit.
It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist?
I lived in something like a fifteen minute neighbourhood. I saw people in wheelchairs around. They appeared to use the same amenities as everyone else.
Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard?
Our kids preferred going to playgrounds because the toys and play structures were better. And they ran into kids they knew.
Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people.
I’m not sure what would be bad about a fifteen minute neighbourhood. It’s just a normal neighbourhood, with stores, schools, work, and civic infrastructure.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
Impossible. This thread has shown me that literally all of Europe has year round Christmas markets with form of mechanical transportation. An entire continent reduce to pre-horse travel. Enough with facts feelings are all that is real.
I live in France, about 30 minutes from a major city. There is transit, but it’s not good, and has very few stops near where I live. Grocery shopping has to be done by car or bike as there aren’t any shops in the village. European cities are extremely well served by transit, but outside the metropolitan areas, cars are still king.
It’s a really interesting thread. Cities are great, suburb & rural can be great and transit is great. 15 minute cities are great goals, but it’s not a one size fits all situation. I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist? Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard? Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people. They’re either right out of school or trolling, I can’t tell which.
As a handicapped person myself, it really baffles me how people think car oriented infrastructure is so much better for us. I am a wheelchair user, and I live in a 15 minute neighborhood. Getting around in my wheelchair is a million times simpler there than in my old car-centric suburb, because the same disabilities that make me wheelchair bound also prevent me from driving. Which mean that in a car-centric environment I do one of the following:
a) Rely on the generosity of friends and family to cart me around at their convenience, or b) Utilize shared access rides, which are door to door, but take longer than using public transit, or c) Roll myself to underserved suburban bus stops over badly maintained sidewalk, and pray I make it on time.
None of which are appealing.
Meanwhile, in my 15 minute city:
And you’re not blind and don’t have a caretaker I assume.
Correct on both counts.
You never even seen the Netherlands, have you? Also, what I tell everyone who comes up with these kind of non-questions, no one is taking your car away. Cars still exist in Europe, but they are not the default, they are used for what they make sense, making irregular trips of 100+Km. But chances are, that there is a train that serves the route anyway.
Handicapped people: most have access to electric micro-mobility vehicles that are legal to use on bike lanes. For those who can’t use micro vehicles, there’s still cars, and vans. They still exists. They weren’t magicked away.
Kids: My sister lives in the outskirts of Madrid, her neighborhood is littered with dozens of parks of all kinds, all less than 10 minute walks. My 10 y.o. nephew can go on his own to many parks without ever having to set foot on asphalt, cross a road or get on neither a bus or a car. He has never had to play on a street. They live in an urban tower that, while they don’t have a personal green cancer backyard, they have a skatepark, a playground, a pet park, sport courts (tennis, badminton, soccer and basketball), a running trail and a botanical garden, all within walking distance.
The first time I went to Amsterdam I was very surprised to see children just wandering about coming from or going to a nearby park. It’s not something you really see here in the US.
Not anymore. It used to be the rule in the US. Even as recently as the 70s and 80s when I was a kid, we’d be gone from home all day everyday when not in school, just roaming around town and keeping ourselves entertained, usually on bikes or skateboards. We got up to a lot of mischief and hijinks, but nothing too serious, and we had a great time doing it.
Same. 80s kid myself. I used to get on my bicycle and roam for MILES. The rule was be home by dark. Had a house key when I was 9.
You might want to go through my comments again, lol. You seem very upset about me somewhat disagreeing with you.
This comment really is funny when you look at it. First you’re pretty patronizing that they have access to the bike lanes too! I know in Seattle, you’d be crazy to use the bike lanes if you were handicapped. And 15 minute cites usually have “walkable” in the tagline.
Great, now compare that to a mini or studio apartment in Seattle. Better yet, compare that to an apartment on the South side of Chicago. As like anything else, if you’re wealthy (not poor or middle class), everything is awesome.
I don’t know why you’re arguing with me, your black and white stance is confusing and tone deaf.
My family is quite the opposite of wealthy. It has nothing to do with class. The fact that the US did cities wrong doesn’t mean that somehow 15 min cities don’t work. I read the whole thread and you seem to be either really confused or rather short of reading comprehension. You seem to have the impression that a bike lane is an asphalt gutter next to the cars where only athletic young men in full sport gear ride bicycles. But in Europe bike lanes are segregated wide, well conditioned spaces, where kids, people with mobility limitations, adults and elderly all share a slow speed lane safe and protected from cars.
I’m not saying they don’t? Wow, there must be a language barrier or something. I’m saying yes they can and do work, but some people want something else.
Yeah, and the people who want something else use the same arguments and rhetoric questions you have used all over this thread that are all fallacies meant to shutdown promotion of the concept because they feel personally threatened by the idea of stopping oil dependence.
LMAO, no. I’m not trying to shut down anyone. I’m trying to say that you guys are naive to think that everyone wants to live in a walkable city. I think a good portion of young people do, which is great and they should be accommodated. You also need transit to support those walkable cities or do you think getting there if you don’t live there, magically happens without cars. Please don’t tell me you’re an urban planner.
You are not trying to shut anything down, but spreading the arguments that are meaningless you don’t exactly help the idea of walkable cities and distract from your own main point that different people need different things.
But if we return to your main point as you state it, it begs a question of how many people really want that different thing. I would say that this requires a research rather than a debate, but my guess is that the ones that want a house in the forest in the middle of nowhere are going to be a statistic outliers. The rest are going to likely be distributed normally between very dense and very sparse but most will likely fit into 15-minute city dense
Handicapped people are more affected by the inverse. Small cities are great, car-centric communes are terrible for them. They’ve worked out their own mobility issues, but those solutions are interrupted when the crosswalks and pedestrian bridges are affected. If the “solution” involves getting in and out of a car repeatedly, it’s often cumbersome for people in wheelchairs.
The point on kids really relates more to neighborhood safety, and how often people interact with a community. Often, kids should be trusted to go down the street to the park. All our old Saturday newspaper comics involve kids going places themselves on foot or bike instead of constantly “being dropped off”.
Isn’t the assumption that the 15 minute city is a neighbourhood in a functional city? There should be transit.
I lived in something like a fifteen minute neighbourhood. I saw people in wheelchairs around. They appeared to use the same amenities as everyone else.
Our kids preferred going to playgrounds because the toys and play structures were better. And they ran into kids they knew.
I’m not sure what would be bad about a fifteen minute neighbourhood. It’s just a normal neighbourhood, with stores, schools, work, and civic infrastructure.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
No, there are people in this thread saying that 15 minute cities are the transit. You’d think that would be the case.
Look again at this thread, lol.
Neighborhoods that promote no cars would be great as long as they have the transit to back it up, imo as well.
Dig deeper and you’ll see the crazy.
Impossible. This thread has shown me that literally all of Europe has year round Christmas markets with form of mechanical transportation. An entire continent reduce to pre-horse travel. Enough with facts feelings are all that is real.