I agree, as a woman who very much cares about inclusive feminism. By silencing men who talk about their issues/pains, we push them further away. By pretending like men don’t have worries/fears/needs/wants, we’re doing them a disservice.
The Patriarchy hurts everyone. Men need to know that if theyre abused by a woman, it doesnt make them “less of a man”, nor is it “their fault”. No one deserves abuse. They, as victims deserve to be acknowledged and handled with care, and have their abuse investigated/taken seriously just as much as a woman does.
We aren’t silencing men. We are asking men to extend empathy to women too and not just other men. Men only caring about men is just another patriarchal tool.
I dont think men *don’t * extend empathy to us. I think Ive seen a hard shift from my parents (Gen X, they were young when they had me), to my Millenial husband and my friends. The vast majority (that Ive met, admittedly), seem like they’re on our side.
But it feels like theyre also trying to be like “Hey, we’re dealing with shit too”, and we’re turning around and being like “Not right now” and its been “Not Right Now” for 30+ years.
Are men perfect? Nah, but neither are we, and we have to make space for them to be validated as victims/people with struggles too. And we can also remind them to call out each other when theyre incorrect, and we need to do the same thing for each other which is what Im trying to do now.
Dont be the reason that Lib women get an even worse rep than we already have. We can discuss both perspectives!
I once saw a gif on Reddit of a little girl being forcibly kissed by a little boy (both about 6), and she shoved him off and he looked sad. The entire thousands of comments focused on the little boys first rejection. No one even noticed it was the little girl’s first sexual assault. She even wiped the kiss off, reminiscent of victims cleaning themselves after assaults.
When I pointed this out, people were angry. How dare I suggest that little boy is a monster. But I wasn’t. I was entirely focused on the little girl’s experience and I wasn’t advocating for anything relating to the boy. In fact, I think an appropriate “punishment” would be to explain to him to not touch people without asking etc. And that’s it.
But men were so unable to extend empathy to a girl, to a woman, that they literally couldn’t absorb this information or perspective take as her. This was like 3 years ago. It was astonishing. No, men do NOT empathize with women. Men empathize with themselves as an idealized version of who they would be as a woman - that’s projection by definition and is entirely how they feel entitled to control women and objectify them.
Are you not even trying to understand how toxic masculinity has forced men to shut up and swallow their feelings, has prevented them from pursuing passions for being “too girly”/not lucrative enough to provide for their family? How its pushed “strongman” narratives, and anything less than that is seen as “weaker/less than”? You cant see how male rape/abuse victims are treated differently than female rape/abuse victims?
Like, if you really cant open your eyes to how that may really affect someones mental health/quality of life, then I think you should do some work on learning empathy.
The 25 year old dude working at the gas station is not the reason the patriarchy is an issue. He’s struggling along with the rest of us, and we’re telling him he has nothing to complain about and has it easier. Thats not okay.
The patriarchy is hierarchy. Like all hierarchies, it’s pyramid shaped. It’s not a rectangle with all men on top and all women in the bottom. It’s a SMALL group of rich men oppressing everyone else. Sure MOST men are given more “power” than MOST women in the structure. That’s the deal the small group of oppressors gave to keep their power. They also give power to strong women who toe the line. But the idea that most men aren’t oppressed in the patriarchy is utterly ridiculous. You seriously think every man you see around you is secretly part of a cabal trying to keep you and other women down? You think that they have no problems, no burdensome expectations placed on them by the patriarchy to keep them in place? That they benefit from toxic masculinity instead of suffer by it? I’m sorry but you have a very dark view of 50% of the population if you think they’re the oppressor class and you’re in the victim class.
We’re all victims of the patriarchy unless we’re old rich white men. The only thing that separates us is the degree of victimisation.
If it is a pyramid shape, even among the small group of rich men, there’s someone calling the shots. Otherwise it wouldn’t be a pyramid shape. Do you value clarifying your ideas more than you do insulting others?
Alright, I’ll ASSUME that you’re not here to “men bad” this conversation, and engage with you in case you want to discuss in good faith, even though my instincts are telling me you’re just trolling to enrage.
There isn’t anyone calling the shots, that’s not how human social hierarchies function. It’s a small number of rich people, generally white, mostly men. They mostly own companies for most of their net worth. Due to their power and wealth they are generally well aligned in terms of what they support.
None of them are going to support socialist ideas because they know it’s mostly them paying for it and others benefiting. None of these people want to empower workers since doing so will cost their companies money. None of them want to have a strong investigative media because they’re the ones doing most of the things that should be investigated. These things, and more, are things they almost universally agree on because they share common privilege.
They also vary amongst themselves in other things. Some like the idea of oppressive Christofascism because if they see themselves as enforcing god’s law then they won’t be damned for eternity. These are the business leaders behind things like project 2025. Some like the idea that the government should do nothing to help anyone or enforce any regulation because everyone should be free to do as they please with their “personal” property. These are the (tech)libertarians that feel like they accomplished everything on their own and were burdened by regulations and that paying for poor people is a waste of money because they’re worthless humans who should just die in poverty or start working harder.
There is a whole array of STUPID flavours of billionaires at the top, and they will each push for their views as often as they can. They RARELY fight eachother because they share most goals. Even when they don’t support eachother’s goals they will only oppose eachother if they have contradictory beliefs and if the laws one group pushes for actively hinders another group, which is generally rare. And best worst of all, their obscene wealth and ownership of most forms of media means that they have TREMENDOUS ability to effect the changes they want to see in the world.
They’re at the top of the pyramid, but they don’t often behave as a cabal except in rare or unusual circumstances (like project 2025) when their sheer power and wealth isn’t enough on its own to effect the changes they want to see. No one is calling the shots above them, even for those lower down, except if you count trading favours as calling the shots.
“woe is men” isn’t a comparison to women.
Women are victimized by the patriarchy in many ways. Men are victimized by the patriarchy in many ways.
Everyone suffers from the patriarchy. We need to dismantle the patriarchy both by fighting our own fights AND by supporting eachother.
We don’t win by dismissing eachother’s pains as invalid or less important.
I agree, as a woman who very much cares about inclusive feminism. By silencing men who talk about their issues/pains, we push them further away. By pretending like men don’t have worries/fears/needs/wants, we’re doing them a disservice.
The Patriarchy hurts everyone. Men need to know that if theyre abused by a woman, it doesnt make them “less of a man”, nor is it “their fault”. No one deserves abuse. They, as victims deserve to be acknowledged and handled with care, and have their abuse investigated/taken seriously just as much as a woman does.
There’s room enough for us all to be equal.
We aren’t silencing men. We are asking men to extend empathy to women too and not just other men. Men only caring about men is just another patriarchal tool.
I dont think men *don’t * extend empathy to us. I think Ive seen a hard shift from my parents (Gen X, they were young when they had me), to my Millenial husband and my friends. The vast majority (that Ive met, admittedly), seem like they’re on our side.
But it feels like theyre also trying to be like “Hey, we’re dealing with shit too”, and we’re turning around and being like “Not right now” and its been “Not Right Now” for 30+ years.
Are men perfect? Nah, but neither are we, and we have to make space for them to be validated as victims/people with struggles too. And we can also remind them to call out each other when theyre incorrect, and we need to do the same thing for each other which is what Im trying to do now.
Dont be the reason that Lib women get an even worse rep than we already have. We can discuss both perspectives!
I once saw a gif on Reddit of a little girl being forcibly kissed by a little boy (both about 6), and she shoved him off and he looked sad. The entire thousands of comments focused on the little boys first rejection. No one even noticed it was the little girl’s first sexual assault. She even wiped the kiss off, reminiscent of victims cleaning themselves after assaults.
When I pointed this out, people were angry. How dare I suggest that little boy is a monster. But I wasn’t. I was entirely focused on the little girl’s experience and I wasn’t advocating for anything relating to the boy. In fact, I think an appropriate “punishment” would be to explain to him to not touch people without asking etc. And that’s it.
But men were so unable to extend empathy to a girl, to a woman, that they literally couldn’t absorb this information or perspective take as her. This was like 3 years ago. It was astonishing. No, men do NOT empathize with women. Men empathize with themselves as an idealized version of who they would be as a woman - that’s projection by definition and is entirely how they feel entitled to control women and objectify them.
Can you define “patriarchy?” Once you do, can you understand how men have an advantage over women? Lol
men are empowered in a patriarchy by definition and women disempowered.
Are you not even trying to understand how toxic masculinity has forced men to shut up and swallow their feelings, has prevented them from pursuing passions for being “too girly”/not lucrative enough to provide for their family? How its pushed “strongman” narratives, and anything less than that is seen as “weaker/less than”? You cant see how male rape/abuse victims are treated differently than female rape/abuse victims?
Like, if you really cant open your eyes to how that may really affect someones mental health/quality of life, then I think you should do some work on learning empathy.
The 25 year old dude working at the gas station is not the reason the patriarchy is an issue. He’s struggling along with the rest of us, and we’re telling him he has nothing to complain about and has it easier. Thats not okay.
Yes, men are the real victims of the patriarchy
The patriarchy is hierarchy. Like all hierarchies, it’s pyramid shaped. It’s not a rectangle with all men on top and all women in the bottom. It’s a SMALL group of rich men oppressing everyone else. Sure MOST men are given more “power” than MOST women in the structure. That’s the deal the small group of oppressors gave to keep their power. They also give power to strong women who toe the line. But the idea that most men aren’t oppressed in the patriarchy is utterly ridiculous. You seriously think every man you see around you is secretly part of a cabal trying to keep you and other women down? You think that they have no problems, no burdensome expectations placed on them by the patriarchy to keep them in place? That they benefit from toxic masculinity instead of suffer by it? I’m sorry but you have a very dark view of 50% of the population if you think they’re the oppressor class and you’re in the victim class.
We’re all victims of the patriarchy unless we’re old rich white men. The only thing that separates us is the degree of victimisation.
So who is at the top of the pyramid?
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suite I take it?
If it is a pyramid shape, even among the small group of rich men, there’s someone calling the shots. Otherwise it wouldn’t be a pyramid shape. Do you value clarifying your ideas more than you do insulting others?
Alright, I’ll ASSUME that you’re not here to “men bad” this conversation, and engage with you in case you want to discuss in good faith, even though my instincts are telling me you’re just trolling to enrage.
There isn’t anyone calling the shots, that’s not how human social hierarchies function. It’s a small number of rich people, generally white, mostly men. They mostly own companies for most of their net worth. Due to their power and wealth they are generally well aligned in terms of what they support.
None of them are going to support socialist ideas because they know it’s mostly them paying for it and others benefiting. None of these people want to empower workers since doing so will cost their companies money. None of them want to have a strong investigative media because they’re the ones doing most of the things that should be investigated. These things, and more, are things they almost universally agree on because they share common privilege.
They also vary amongst themselves in other things. Some like the idea of oppressive Christofascism because if they see themselves as enforcing god’s law then they won’t be damned for eternity. These are the business leaders behind things like project 2025. Some like the idea that the government should do nothing to help anyone or enforce any regulation because everyone should be free to do as they please with their “personal” property. These are the (tech)libertarians that feel like they accomplished everything on their own and were burdened by regulations and that paying for poor people is a waste of money because they’re worthless humans who should just die in poverty or start working harder.
There is a whole array of STUPID flavours of billionaires at the top, and they will each push for their views as often as they can. They RARELY fight eachother because they share most goals. Even when they don’t support eachother’s goals they will only oppose eachother if they have contradictory beliefs and if the laws one group pushes for actively hinders another group, which is generally rare. And
bestworst of all, their obscene wealth and ownership of most forms of media means that they have TREMENDOUS ability to effect the changes they want to see in the world.They’re at the top of the pyramid, but they don’t often behave as a cabal except in rare or unusual circumstances (like project 2025) when their sheer power and wealth isn’t enough on its own to effect the changes they want to see. No one is calling the shots above them, even for those lower down, except if you count trading favours as calling the shots.
Define “patriarchy.”
When did the US ban spousal rape? When did women get the right to vote? When did women get the right to divorce or have credit cards?