I don’t think many people on lemmy conflate marxism with leninism outside of .ml, and even there folks seems to see leninism as something on top of marxism and not inherently mixed.

And then we also have people who feel stalinist style “communo facism” would work well because everyone you like will be fed and everyone you don’t like will be dead. I don’t think anyone ever liked those people, including themselves.

As we well know all women and men in history that lived together with someone of the same gender were just friends. There are many historical records in which esteemed historians depicted the factual truth of deep friendships. Luckily for the rest of us, those noble seers always knew all context required and bore no prejudices towards anything whatsoever. That is a model cucumber. It even tastes like one.

While true and valid, also remember that your community can be a problem, or you might be suffering from systemic issues. Not all issues stem from individuals, and some are impossible to solve on the personal level. If you find yourself in the cult, for example, walking away is probably the best you could do, despite the scorn of the community.

Women are a known counter against moderate politics being reasonable to poke at

I was ready for lizard people but bug people is where I draw the line.

Yeah, but you could rent from the government instead of private owners. You have completely no leverage over them, and government could use the rent money to build more housing for renting or sale and drive prices of housing down instead.

You can’t just keep asking questions and avoiding answering mine, and I’m not exactly willing to describe “all of everything” to catch you up to speed. This conversation is getting rather tiring due to that, to be honest.

There are multiple ways to define the “left” and the spectrum itself, but the way I see it described most often is collective approach to the economics on the left, individual on the right, and measure of authoritarianism of the system in the vertical axis, usually with the top being authoritarian and bottom being libertarian. Due to that being the most common way to describe it I know of, it’s one I’m using. You’ve got ML folks in the top left corner, communo anarchists on the libertarian left corner, fascists in the top right corner and libertarian right in the bottom right corner. I’m waving to you from somewhere in the bottom left quadrant. The “Left” in this case typically includes support for social ownership, redistribution of wealth, public control over resources, and greater economic equality. Ideologies on this side often prioritize the welfare of the community or society as a whole over individual wealth accumulation. Policies may include progressive taxation, social safety nets, public healthcare, strong labor rights etc.

As for what moderate means, I’m using your definition from your first comment. Directly, since you’ve defined centrism by measurement of moderation and reasoned that democratic socialism is centrist instead of leftist due to it fitting that description. I’m not arguing against your definition of moderate politics, but it being a characterizing attribute of centrist political systems.

the intended changes are radical but good for everyone, and involve no sacrifice or tolerance for mess in getting there, slowly and conservatively enough that nobody’s too uncomfortable at any point except the people who were already DEEPLY uncomfortable and fucked by the current shape of things, not rocking the boat too much, etc.

that’s, like, the definition of moderate. it’s the psychology and strategy right wingers claim to have when they’re pretending to not just be evil monsters who get off on oppression, applied to ‘make the world better’. that’s almost the definition of centrist.

As for dems being democratic socialist, you’ve referenced Kamala Harris and her policy propositions, and I’m not sure why, so I explored the possibility of it being the point of our misunderstanding.

And finally, about what “centrism” is… Come on, man, I’ve described it like 4 times now. It’s time you pick up some weight here.

I never said anything like that. Are you sure you’re not confusing this thread with some other discussion you’re having?

I’ve yet to meet a person that wouldn’t describe socialism as “far left”, and one of the main principles of socialism is ownership of the means of production by the working class, which is exactly what worker co-ops are. As such, those would be “leftist”.

I’ve already described what centrist system is in my view and argued against your arguments about it being rooted in being moderate as opposed to shift in society the system intends to implement. I’ll reiterate my argument against classification of democratic socialism as a centrist political system - it intends to implement fundamental changes (which already makes it non-centrist if you wish to use subjective definition of centrism, where it protects the status quo) that will lead to fall of capitalism and rise of socialism (which is a far left political system, and that would make democratic socialism non-centrist by ‘objective’ definition, in which centrism is a mid point between furthest left and right).

You claimed that being moderate is the definition of centrism and then used right wingers as example of using it as political strategy. I see that as a clear contradiction. By your own admission right wing use the veil of moderate politics to smuggle through their evil policies. So are they the center if they mask their intent, or are they right wing? If they are right wing, despite using moderate politics to disguise their plans and garner popularity for their policies, then democratic socialism would be left wing for exactly the same reason.

That’s my reiterated argument against moderate politics = center. You’ve never described center as anything other than moderate politics, not shaking the boat etc. - which I wouldn’t say inherently applies to democratic socialism either, but that’s a whole different discussion. I’ve disagreed with this definition of centrism, as it’s unrelated to political spectrum - you can be moderate anarcho communist just as well as nazi that doesn’t want to rock the boat, so they remain popular with the public.

Regarding popularity, because your argument about Republicans not being popular still seems weird to me, it’s not related to ‘doing good’. Nazis were popular, won the democratic elections, you know? Some people just like facism, but others are drawn in by charisma and stuff like that. You accused me of conflating popularity with good, and I still have no idea where you got that from.

I’ll remind you we’re discussing whenever democratic socialism is a centrist political system or not, not how far left it is. And re-reading your first comment, I’m not even sure we define this term in the same way, so I’ll just point out the definition on wikipedia is mostly compatible with mine. You seem to think that perhaps the Democratic Party in US is democratic socialist party, judging from your remarks about Harris policies? Because if so, that couldn’t be further from the truth.

I’ll be honest, I’m very confused with your replies. I’m trying to address what I ‘think’ you’re talking about, but I feel like you came to this conversation with a baggage of context (or misunderstanding) that I’m not privy to.

The popularity I’ve talked about referenced your point about it being moderate and easy on everyone nerves. I’ve oryginally started my previous comment by saying, that full blown socialism right here and right now would be good for everyone and it would be considered pretty leftist, but deleted that after deciding this part was pretty much obvious. Something being good doesn’t make it centrist. That’s why I stayed on point of public sentiment, which you seemingly invoked by defining center as moderate in the eyes of voters.

Say whatever you want about their hienous ideas, there wouldn’t be an issue in USA right now or anxiety about Trump winning if they weren’t reasonably popular. And I’m not conflating that popularity with doing good, but using their example to reject your argument about popularity making a political system ‘centrist’.

I don’t understand where did you get popularity = ‘doing good’ from me, but before we get into argument about that, I don’t see how either of those would make a system centrist. ‘Good’ is relative, and further left would be ‘better’ by this logic, right? So how does that make a democratic socialism ‘centrist’ if ‘doing good’ is the measure you’re using here? It being moderate is for the sake of popularity, gradual shift to the left so no one has any major complaints, and I think I’ve spoken enough about how I don’t see popularity as reasonable measuring standard here.

Democratic socialism wants to overthrow the capitalism, bring socialism, give everyone free healthcare, have worker co-ops as default mode of working, UBI, yada, yada, all of those propositions are radical (as in fundamental) and definitely leftist. Instead of violent revolution this system proposes a reformative approach, and that’s basicially the main difference from wide range of socialist systems that would attempt to implement the same things. So how is that centrist? Moderate, I get. Popular, sure. But center would refer to either a midpoint between the furthest right and left ideologies, or a minimal degree of change from the current political system, depending on how you want to define that word. I can’t see Democratic Socialism fitting either of those definitions, so it has to be a leftist system. I don’t see how it being moderate or popular would even influence that.

It’s true it’s moderate and push for gradual changes to ease everyone in, but it being appealing to more people doesn’t make it centrist, I don’t think. It’s purpose isn’t to balance in the center between the left and the right, but rather to use softer kind of force to move society left.

As in the example you used, what we consider right and (nowdays even far right) manages power without much fuss from the society, and is appealing to some despite it’s facist undertones. Would you consider Republicans to be centrist? Because if you wouldn’t, I’d argue that any democratic socialist party wouldn’t be either.

I think the intent matters more than public opinion, you could sway the public with charismatic enough figurehead without changing anything about policy. I see the ‘center’ as more of the tendency not to change anything either way or balance between the ‘extremes’, and democratic socialism intends to be polite about beheading the capital class.

I see your point, and it’s true that a lot of earlier propositions of socialism are already implemented and seen as desirable by most people, but I think that’s something to be said about left wing in general. We’re no longer fighting to abolish 20 hours work day, instead it’s 32 hours work week now. As the window has moved, so did the policy. I’ve never heard about there being a stopping point in regards to how far left socialist democracy system is supposed to push before it’s “principles” are satisfied, but my understanding was that it’s at least until capitalism is abolished (and socialism emerges) or capital class is weak enough to be defeated via revolution of some sort. And so, since it’s intended purpose is to push much further left instead of mantaining the current system and it’s status quo, and some changes required to implement it’s propositions are radical, I feel like it can’t be reasonably called centrist system. Unless your definition of political center differs from mine, but it would require it not to account for both how far left the system intends to shift the society eventually, and also how radical the changes are in comparison to the current center. That, or what we understand as socialist democracy differs, wikipedia page for it mostly fits my definition, and I don’t know where to look for more ‘common’ view on it.

Why though? What makes it a centrist system in your view? Elaborate.

Leaning of political system would be measured in degree of proposed changes. The center shifts, but even without accounting for that, democratic socialism is still not a centrist political system by any measure. Democratic socialism proposes radical changes, as it attempts to dismantle capitalist estabilishment, eradicate class structure and all that. Those changes are touching fundamental aspects of the current system, which make them, by definition, radical. As opposed to centrist position of mantaining the status quo.

I thought you had some sort of insight about democratic socialism being actually a centrist position, and wanted to hear it out, but it seems you’re either unwilling or unable to engage with that topic. Suit yourself.

Where did you get the right wing there? I’m seriously confused, since nothing that I said about democratic socialism was negative. Radical changes are needed and utopian societies are good. I just find calling democratic socialism a centrist political system inaccurate due to its intended radical change, as opposed to social democracy or, you know, centrism as it is understood.

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I’m not sure calling democratic socialism a centrist political system is reasonable. The intended changes to society are still radical and their gradual implementation doesn’t change that. The intended outcome is still some flavor of communist utopia, and that’s still reasonably leftist I’d say.

And lots of people will stop drinking it because of that, and they will be healthier thanks to it.

you seem angry

They could have memed it to hell and back with stuff like “I did not have a sexual relationship with that furniture mr. Clinton” or “only inanimate thing im horny for is democracy” but they had to go full serious damage control mode. Like, if they told us there are no aliens invading and put soldiers in the streets we would look out for ufos. What did they think they were going to gain by that kind of response? Completely detached from the ether, they are.

I’ve had a gallon of PCP if that counts though