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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
An Israeli military spokesperson confirmed that there were “hostage situations” in the southern city of Ofakim and the nearby kibbutz of Beeri.
Hamas said it had taken “dozens” of Israeli soldiers hostage and moved them to the Gaza Strip as footage emerged appearing to show gunmen in military fatigues leading a group of mostly barefoot women down a street in Israel.
The announcement and video verified by NBC News came hours after Hamas launched a deadly land, air and sea attack and fired a huge barrage of rockets at Israel.
Are you trying to suggest that you don’t want to argue? That you might be open to learning something new?
Wait, wait, let me do your part
Sorry, I spaced on the last bit but it’s always a mad libs of haughty insults.
Okay my turn: can you possibly imagine being wrong in any way? Have you ever been wrong about anything?
Now you: you’re a sad individual who’s trying to distract from your total lack of an argument. I completely proved you wrong in every way and you know it.
Then me: so that would be a “no”
Then you: fuck off, troll
Then me: lol
That’s usually where this ends. Hopefully saved us a few back and forth.
What is it you think I’m going to learn from anything you’ve typed? The only thing you seem to want people to “learn” as that you’re right and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong without you providing any kind rational reason for this.
You stated that it’s the nature of fascism for there to be no real plan. I stated that Hamas has no real plan other than to use nationalistic and genocidal fervor to remain in power. We’re seeing genocidal actions being celebrated (or at the very least rationalized) by Palestinians. I don’t see a lot of Palestinians outright condemning the actions of Hamas, either out of sympathy for them or out of fear of them. This is suggestive of a fascist society.
You could blow my argument out the water by explaining what the long term plan of Hamas is. But there is none. Because they’re fascist and having power over people is the goal.
So instead of anything countering long list of fascist characteristics of Hamas and Palestinian society, it’s just “YOU’RE WRONG WHY DON’T YOU ADMIT IT!!!”
Really? You promise?
Sure but with the caveat that it’s a plan that will actually work (not just propaganda material) and it’s not just a callback to the “glorious past” of the Crusades (which is also propaganda).
Think pre-crusades
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
By far the central objective is a Palestinian state that encompasses all or most of present day Israel and the defeat or obliteration of Israeli Jews. It is a very clear objective that hasn’t wavered in its central premise, just in scope.
To put it simply, they want a Israel to be a Muslim caliphate. It’s a very clear long term goal, and their plan to get there is jihad. And it’s a sincerely held goal, not just propaganda (though they do of course use propaganda to further that goal).
Notably, their goal is solely regional, not endlessly expansionist like most fascist regimes.
Another, separate massive difference from fascism is the lack of strongman political organization:
So you’re saying wanting to obliterate Jews is evidence they are not fascist?
Do you always take fascists at their word? Do you think charters and constitutions are always 100% the true intentions of the writers?
And even the excerpts you compiled have fascist rhetoric all over the place.
Call to violent fervor. But the kind that sounds vaguely religious!
They’re demanding people to consider their political cause to be a religious cause. Not even being subtle about it. “We declare that blood and soil is a religious thing!”
Again how are they going to actually accomplish this? How is Hamas going to actually going to overpower the IDF? Do you think that’s an actual real possibility?
Since Hamas isn’t actually capable of doing this everything they claim they want for a future government is pure fantasy and just propaganda designed to help recruitment. They can offer everyone unicorns, blow jobs, and endless lines of coke once Israel is defeated. Whatever brings in recruits.
You mean that bullshit that allows the Hamas leadership to live large off of donations from bitter Arab billionaires outside of Palestine, safe from any risk from the IDF while their people get killed when the IDF retaliates against their rocket attacks? Form hierarchical power structures is a fascist thing too. And which of Majlis al-Shura, General Consultative Council, and Politburo are religious in nature? Ah yes the great Politburo, that’s keeping in accordance with the Islamic traditions!
Basically it’s just all blood and soil shit, with a heaping helping of we will go back to Islamic tradition (someday! ;)) but first die for us in our never ending conflict with those evil people over there! Because Islam and stuff, yo.
They’re not quoting religious texts, not mentioning any religious sites. Not giving any religious justification for what they’re doing. They’re just saying “this is a religious struggle because we said so!”
And I can’t stress this enough, these are the words of fascists, you can’t swallow the things they say as if they’re dealing with people truthfully. Like all fascists they give lip service to religion to legitimize their power.
I mean if you want to go there, then you can argue that literally anything is literally anything. Hamas is actually communist. Hamas is actually anarcho-capitalist.
When Hamas says they want to eradicate the Israeli Jews and establish a Muslim caliphate in Israel, and all of their actions support that claim, I believe them. Why wouldn’t I?
Correct. Which is not fascism. It’s religious zealotry.
Yes, they absolutely are, they do it all the time, they can barely go 3 sentences without quoting Mohammad or the Quran. It’s just not directly reflected in the Wikipedia article much. Check the sources though.
They are true believers. Sure, they also want power and they are also vicious racists, but that is secondary to their (particularly violent) interpretation of Islam and jihad.
Totally circular reasoning!
You: “they’re fascists”
Me: “no they’re not, and here’s proof from their own words”
You: “you can’t trust anything they say because they’re fascists!”
It’s Russels Teapot, it’s proving a negative, it’s conspiracy theory logic. Any proof is just dismissed as lies. And how do you know they’re lying about not being fascists? Because they’re fascists, and fascists lie!
They’re just not, dude. They’re terrible, but there’s many different forms of terrible. They’re not all fascism.
From your logic, nothing is fascism. The Nazis were the Nationalist Socialist party, therefore communist therefore not fascist! If the Nazis called themselves the Christian Nationalist Socialist Party would that make them a theocratic movement? Do you think North Korea is a democracy because they call themselves the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea? Do you always believe all authoritarians everywhere all the time?
Fascists lie. I mean they’re willing to murder people in the millions, why would you think lying would be a bridge too far for them?
You don’t know a fascist by what they claim to be. You know them from their actions and the emotional manipulations they use. These guys are all blood and soil in their own manifesto.
When you’re the king you don’t have to call yourself the king. When you’re a religious movement you don’t have to demand people to consider you to be a religious movement. Hamas declaring that their blood and soil narrative is a religious conflict gives away the game. They wouldn’t need to make such demands if their politcal intentions were implicitly religious.
Circular reasoning is when I ask for a reasonable plan for Hamas’ future that wasn’t propaganda and you provide me with propaganda directly from Hamas. I point out that fascist narrative even in their own propaganda documents and you declare it circular reasoning because I’m repeating the fact that fascists lie. Even your “proof” that Hamas isn’t fascist is dripping with well worn fascist narratives.
And so we’re back to the point of the circle where you’re again just saying “YOU’RE WRONG WHY DON’T YOU JUST ADMIT IT!”