• bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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    1 year ago

    Turns out being anti-war protesters means they’re ANTI WAR.

    What do you want them to do? Raise funds to send some missles over?

    • Zorque@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      I guess Ukraine could just use hopes and prayers to get Putin out of their front yard.

      • Grimpen
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        1 year ago

        I’m pretty sure that most of the solid anti-war protestors would expect Ukraine to just accept Russian territorial demands, up to and including complete annexation.

        It turns into a reductio ad absurdum pretty quickly though. Putin didn’t seem to return Crimea or the occupied regions of Donbass and Luhansk when asked politely. Not even when asked sternly. Indeed, it would seem that when all he faced was stern disapproval he decided to come back for more.

        There is no doubt in my mind that supporting Ukraine now is stopping more Russian aggression later. Besides, Putin can end this war any time. Just go back to the original borders. The only reason not to is his yearning for Imperial glory. The irony being that many of these anti-war protestors would probably proclaim themselves anti-colonialists.

        • kent_eh
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          1 year ago

          Putin can end this war any time. Just go back to the original borders.

          Exactly.

          If these anti-war protesters want to yell at the people who can stop the war, they need to protest at the Russian embassy.

          • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            You didn’t tell me what action will end the war faster, other going to the negotiating table. Ukraine is running out of bodies to throw into the meat grinder. This is a war of attrition, and the numbers are not in their favor.

      • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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        1 year ago

        Wouldn’t providing Ukraine with more weapons extend the war? Their latest offensive shows they’re running on fumes.

        • Zorque@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          You’re right, they should just roll over and accept Russian domination.

          Their comment, of course, was overly simplistic. I’m sure what they meant was “then why are they protesting action that will end the war in Ukraine’s favor faster”.

          If you only care about blindly ending war as soon as possible by any means necessary, you definitely have two major options. Either let the aggressor do whatever they want, or use overwhelming force to utterly destroy them.

          Which is your preference?

          • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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            1 year ago

            If you only care about blindly ending war as soon as possible by any means necessary, you definitely have two major options. Either let the aggressor do whatever they want, or use overwhelming force to utterly destroy them.

            Except this is assuming that the US is omnipotent. The US cannot use overwhelming force to defeat Russia in the conflict. That leaves only not supplying arms to reduce the length of the war and casualties.

            • Zorque@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              So you prefer just letting aggressors do whatever they want, got it.

              As anti-war as you or I may be, there’s more than enough petty dictators who are more than happy to be pro-war and fuck up the world.

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                1 year ago

                So you prefer just letting aggressors do whatever they want

                I dont have that principle, I think there are cases when you should and when you shouldn’t.

                there’s more than enough petty dictators who are more than happy to be pro-war and fuck up the world.

                I’m more concerned about the US. Why is biggest kid on the block when it comes to genocide and war so enthusiastic to supply Ukraine with arms?

                Especially given operation AERODYNAMIC by the cia…

                • Zorque@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  Ah, whataboutism, the first recourse of the desperate to appear neutral.

                  The US military industrial complex, and the politicians who serve it, have a lot to answer for. Keeping Ukrainians from being overrun by wannabe world dominators is not one of them.

                  Your principle seems to be pointing fingers at the big boys while you let the small fries die in trenches, begging for help that will never come because “It’s just not right for the US to do things!”

                  • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                    1 year ago

                    Whataboutism isn’t a logical fallacy(and claiming it is was first used to defend British colonial violence) also if it was what I was doing wasn’t whataboutism, it was questioning the motives of the person providing aid.

                    Your principle seems to be pointing fingers at the big boys while you let the small fries die in trenches, begging for help that will never come because “It’s just not right for the US to do things!”

                    Continuing the war so more people die isn’t helping. War is a racket, it is always a racket.

                • Solar Bear@slrpnk.net
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                  1 year ago

                  I dont have that principle, I think there are cases when you should and when you shouldn’t [let aggressors do whatever they want]

                  Personally I don’t think there’s any case where we should be telling other peoples to just accept their annexation or colonization. I’d be interested to hear the argument otherwise.

                  I’m more concerned about the US. Why is biggest kid on the block when it comes to genocide and war so enthusiastic to supply Ukraine with arms?

                  Because it defends American hegemony and weakens an anti-American state. It’s not a hard question to answer. That doesn’t mean it’s not also the right thing to do regardless. Bad people can go good things for bad reasons. Unfortunately some seem to think the deaths of Ukrainians and pillaging of their land is a sacrifice worth making in order to geopolitically weaken America. I’m all for reducing America’s global power, but I’m not so cruel as to choose other people’s lives to trade for it against their will.

                  If Ukraine wants to defend itself, I think it’s a good thing to air them in that; I also think making such invasions as difficult and expensive as possible is the anti-war position.

                  • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                    1 year ago

                    Personally I don’t think there’s any case where we should be telling other peoples to just accept their annexation or colonization. I’d be interested to hear the argument otherwise.

                    Idk I’m pretty anti-nationalist. People’s material conditions and also not being dead matter more than imaginary lines on a map.

                    Because it defends American hegemony and weakens an anti-American state. It’s not a hard question to answer. That doesn’t mean it’s not also the right thing to do regardless.

                    I mean that really should factor into it.

                    Unfortunately some seem to think the deaths of Ukrainians and pillaging of their land is a sacrifice worth making in order to geopolitically weaken America. I’m all for reducing America’s global power, but I’m not so cruel as to choose other people’s lives to trade for it against their will.

                    Fighting to the last Ukrainian kills more Ukrainians than allowing their government to sign a peace deal, or at least allowing their government to lose more quickly.

                    If Ukraine wants to defend itself, I think it’s a good thing to air them in that;

                    What do you mean by ukraine? Do you mean the government? The ukrainian population? Part of the ukrainian population?

            • kent_eh
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              1 year ago

              Except this is assuming that the US is omnipotent. The US cannot use overwhelming force to defeat Russia in the conflict.

              Good thing pretty much every western country is supporting Ukraine’s defensive war effort.

              Nobody expects the US to be the sole support for Ukraine.

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                1 year ago

                Good thing pretty much every western country is supporting Ukraine’s defensive war effort.

                How is that going?

      • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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        1 year ago

        We’ve sent billions to Ukraine, seems to only have ended in more dead people and little progress.

        • thantik@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          So I’m gonna come over to your house and commandeer 2 bedrooms. You can’t do anything about it, because that would be violent and non-productive. Thanks for the 2 bedrooms. I’m gonna shit on the carpet and in 10 years send my children to take the rest of your house. But again, you can’t do anything because that would be violent and non-progressive.

          Because you know, wouldn’t want there to be any conflict or anything.

          • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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            1 year ago

            Stop trying to simplify geopolitics into interpersonal metaphors.

            In your metaphor what is the billions in human killing machines that NATO et al supply to Ukraine? Who would be the thousands dead and families destroyed?

            • thantik@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              I’ll stop simplifying geopolitics as soon as you recognize the right of the Ukrainian people to defend their land by whatever means is necessary. Every nation in the history of mankind has conscripted its citizens to aid in its defense. Russia will continue to take, and take, and take until someone shows them they cannot take freely any more. This anti-war absolutism is Russian propaganda designed to further their goals of illegal annexation of territory belonging to Ukraine.

              • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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                1 year ago

                Clearly the solution is to escalate, sending MORE weapons! That can only possibly SAVE lives!

                • Misconduct@startrek.website
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                  1 year ago

                  Yeah! Why can’t they just roll over and die instead? Smh people fighting not to lose their homes or worse are so inconvenient to us. Sometimes we have to read about it and be upset! Absolutely unacceptable these people should care more about how they’re making people on the internet feel and stop defending themselves so much. As someone that’s entitled and privileged I surely know what is best for them.