If you’re considering buying one you might want to take into account that they removed the headphone jack so they can sell their own wireless buds and headphones.
I care less about the lack of a headphone jack and more about the lack of multiple ports
USB C is genuinely a great multiport, but all of these companies leave the phone with one port. People would care less if each phone had two ports, so you could plug in headphones via adapter while also charging
I have. They tend to be poorly shielded so you get all kinds of hiss and other shenanigans in the audio when you’re charging and listening at the same time. The adapters exist, but I’ve yet to come across one that isn’t terrible.
Those suck worse than the old school 3.5mm splitters we all used back in the discman, and later iPod days.
The removal of the headphone jack is one of the worst developments in personal electronics over the last 30 years. Personally I hope that the EU’s next port mandate forces its reintroduction as Bluetooth headphones are an environmental catastrophe.
The lack of headphone jack is the sole reason I went with Samsung XCover 6Pro instead. Shame really, because I’m the kind of person who uses their device for +5 years, and prefer fixing stuff myself, but when Apple removed the headphone jack I made a decision to never buy a device without one if there’s an alternative with it and I’m still sticking with that. I bought an “outdated” laptop aswell because the newer model didn’t have USB-A, HDMI or a card reader. Ironically the most recent models now do.
you mean this strange old socket that is (at least for me) primarily used for collecting dust since almost a decade? yeah, personally I can live without it.
and this fortunately is not apple. You can use every brand of earbud and use all of the features, so I don’t really get your point at all. the phone is very good and I hope I will be able to use it until the 30s
Having a headphone jack will let you use any kind of headphone produced in the last 50 years, which has a 3.5mm jack. Also, while listening to music you could also charge your phone, if you choose to, but not with a USB-C only port. Furthermore, USB-C DACs are stupid, they are an annoyance, even the ones with the shortest cables - I broke three of them in two months because they’re idiotically designed and they don’t fold in my pocket - a thing that never happened with headphone cables.
Two years in and providing a USB-C adapter my wife is still complaining that her current phone doesn’t have a headphone jack.
For my daughter I selected the phone mostly for repairability combined with colour choice, which landed me with Nokia - which ended up having a headphone jack. Didn’t pay attention to that, but she’s happy it is there.
I know with my iPhone 12 Siri is shit on my Sony linkbuds. It won’t read my messages like it would with the AirPods I replaced or allow me to reply with them
Tell me a pair of wireless headphones that are as good and around the same price as the moondrop Aria’s with extremely low latency (so they can be used for rhythm games) and can buy a replacement case for not too much.
Also Bluetooth’s audio quality is terrible when also using the microphone at the same time. So you can’t really make a call and enjoy listening to music at the same time
I got a 30 dollar pair of knockoff ipods for my Samsung and the audio quality is better than the wired akg buds it came with. They also sell for less now. No issues with battery life and the case has a battery level display. They also can be wirelessly charged. They’re my favorites.
Any evidence for that theory? I guess I’ve used Bluetooth hesdphones for years, so I’ve not got skin in the game. Lots of android devices seem to not have a headphone jack. And each part removed is one less part to pay for, or replace, or have to water proof. I’ve not looked into it because I’m happy to trade sound quality for wireless convienece, but umarent headphones that use the usb c port comparable in quality to 3.5mm?
But if there’s a leaked memo or something that it was a concerted plan by the company that would certainly be bad.
I just keep a USB c dongle permanently attached to my wired headphones, I forget it’s there. It adds like 1" to the overall cable length. I basically just converted all my wired headphones into USB c headphones.
I mean, I don’t know their other practices, but the removal of the headphone jack is hardly green washing. I’d bet it actually is more sustainable to not include it tbh, plus it is likely more affordable. Beyond that, with just looking into it, as I expected, they’re a more sustainable and repairable set of headphones compared to the rest of the market. Moreover, I highly doubt dropping the jack would drive folks to decide to buy these if they weren’t already. They’re not tiny earbuds. They’re over the ear which is generally something folks buy when they actually are looking for them.
Sometimes accelerated progress can lead to waste, but holding onto legacy tech for too long can also lead to waste.
The big issue with removing the headphones jack is just that it’s now impossible to use wired headphones while charging the phone.
For a lot of people that doesn’t matter but for some of us that’s a big deal. If they added a second USB-C port that would fix the issue.
But saying the 3.5 jack is legacy technology is also kinda wrong. A USB headset is not inherently better. You have to compare the digital audio converter that’s used. While USB headphones use their own dac, the jack uses the dac of the phone. So a cheap phone with high quality USB headphones will be better but a high quality phone with cheap USB headphones would be worse than using the jack.
Which even means jacks would be more sustainable because you only need one dac per phone rather than one per headphone.
And any form of wireless headphones are just inferior to wired connections.
I didn’t say a USB headset is inherently better. The one on your phone isn’t inherently better either if you’re using a 3.5mm jack either. So the argument can work both ways. And to be honest, no phone really has amazing onboard DAC, and especially not the Fairphone.
I’d bet it actually is more sustainable to not include it tbh, plus it is likely more affordable.
Mmm now you’re dealing with powered devices that have another two batteries that wear out, plus the battery in the charging case, all the electronics involved, etc etc
Vs a simple plastic connector and an associated amplifier IC that costs about $3 in quantity.
You can still use a wired headset if you so wish with your $3 connector. But when someone wants wireless, it’s nice to have the option.
I don’t blame Fairphone trying to make their product less expensive to produce. It’s not like they’re the biggest sellers in the world or benefitting from economies of scale as much as other companies.
So what you’re saying is the existing crowd with the existing hardware should buy the adapter cable, which if you want to talk sustainability, is more resource intensive to produce than internal phone components, using considerably more copper/PVC/etc by having two connectors in it.
So that the crowd with Bluetooth, which is pretty much provided by every phone wifi chipset by default and is no doubt provided by a chipset like that in the Fairphone, can use Bluetooth.
I don’t blame them that much for trying to reduce costs/component count. But I do wonder how many potential customers a manufacturer who is trying to promote freedom of choice/software loses when they remove a particular freedom/choice from their phone.
Removing the headphone socket does grant an extra degree of waterproofing. You don’t have to make that area of the phone quite as robust either - a 3.5mm plug has quite a lot of leverage on your PCB when it’s plugged in. There’s now room on the PCB for … something else they need/want to put on there, another ram chip, a cubic centimetre for extra battery (which apple tried to justify as their reason), something like that.
But it does mean that they lose at least a few people who like the general simplicity of a wired connection.
Your first paragraph is wrong imo. A minority of users are using 3.5mm jack, including a port on the phone for all users results in more waste than having that minority buy an adapter that can be re used on any phone in the future.
Also please don’t argue that jack users aren’t a minority now. Most users don’t care about having the port on their phone, and most are happy with wireless.
I’ll argue what I want, it’s my opinion, just like it’s your opinion to state that my first paragraph is wrong, and to follow on I would like to counter-assert that most people just deal with what they get when they buy a phone and don’t get to have much say in the matter, whether they like it or not. :-)
If you agree that, in general , all users have headphones of some sort, and that both types of users can take said headphones along to their next phone, then:
I will argue that we still end up in the same position. That is, a single port (and internal chips) + cabled headphones needs less resources compared to using an existing multi purpose Bluetooth chip in the phone and now having two extra battery devices with electronics to provide reception and amplification in each bud (effectively duplicating that which was originally contained in the phone). I resist the idea that removing the headphone socket is somehow a “better” choice sustainability-wise, and I will continue to do so.
It would be even more sustainable to not include the Bluetooth module. Less parts means less material use (making it greener) and less cost of materials as well (making it cheaper). The phone has speakers for audio anyway. Who wants to carry around some second accessory like headphones or earbuds? It’s not like anyone has a perfectly valid use case for the Bluetooth module, right?
Is this a fair argument in 2023 with all the options for wireless headphones/buds? I feel like it still sucks because you can’t use your dollar store wired sets, but there are enough cheap raycon clones out now that it’s hardly a guaranteed secondary sale at this point.
because you can’t use your dollar store wired sets, but there are enough cheap raycon clones out now that it’s hardly a guaranteed secondary sale at this point.
It’s more about not being able to use existing high-end headphones and IEMs. It’s wasteful and expensive to replace those.
There are workarounds of course, but it’s never as nice as having a real headphone jack to work with.
I already have a good set of headphones. I don’t want to buy new ones or adapters, especially when I can just buy a device that they can plug straight into
Look, I do understand, and it took me a while to buy into the wireless buds thing, but you could have made the same argument for PS/2 mouse and keyboards, or anything using mini, and then later, micro USB.
The fact is, if you want to keep your old peripherals, but upgrade your main compute device, at some point you need to accept that you’ll need an adapter.
The 3.5mm jack was first introduced in the 1950s as a mini version of the 6.5mm jack… which was used as far back as 1878… it’s had a hell of a run, but if you weigh the pros and cons fairly, wireless as a standard has drawbacks, but is actually, ultimately an upgrade and it’s well overdue.
I just think there are enough wireless options (and adapters) available now that it’s not fair to knock fairphone for this decision anymore.
My main issue with all of this is that I’m not interested in maintaining a charge for yet another wireless device.
I’m a frequent flier for work. My wired noise cancelling headphones run on a single AAA battery for 14+ hours straight. I can buy a small pack of AAA batteries at the airport in 30 seconds and get 60 hours of listening time. I don’t have to worry about putting them back in their carrying/charger case. I don’t have to worry about charging that case. If they go flat and I don’t have a spare AAA battery (the case actually has a convenient hole for a spare AAA), they still work, albeit with a noisier background. And they plug into in flight entertainment system headphone sockets. Haven’t seen a Bluetooth option on IFE systems yet.
Would I want to go jogging with my wired headphones? No. I do have a pair of bose wireless earbuds, and they’re nice. But every time I think about using them, they are flat in their charging case. I don’t want to have to keep the charging case on charge soooooo for 90 percent of my usage , the wired ones it is.
My noise-canceling, Bluetooth headphones in 2004 ran for 2 days, no problem (back when I was flying for work all the time).
“Another thing to charge” is a strawman. They all use C or micro today, and headphones use so little power your laptop can easily charge them. Or even your phone.
Say I’m a fan of buds, but now I need wireless buds. No one makes ones that are made to have the battery replaced. They’re intended to be thrown away after the batteries wear out. While wired ones work forever, maybe needing a replacement cable, or to patch an existing cable… maybe.
Not to mention, audio quality. I’ll skip the buds quality themselves, bc some people claim to not be able to hear the difference… there are no bt headsets that have a mic that even approaches the quality of the old included buds from iPhones. None.
You mean the disposable nature of wired headphones with thin-as-hell 26/28 gauge wires that break if you look at them wrong?
I’ve broken more wired headsets than I’ve owned Bluetooth. I still have my ten+ year old noise-canceling bletooth headphones. I haven’t “disposed” them.
If things are disposed, it’s generally on the person, not the device.
I have multiple 2017 and older phones that still work, and get used as podcast/music players, security cameras, etc. I have a 1998 laptop I use to run Linux for testing. The batteries are toast, but so what.
Again, disposability is primarily a consumer issue, not a product one.
And I call BS on the sound quality. Given the nature of the source, and especially environments we’re in, noise is a huge factor. As for the microphone thing - the transport systems are far worse than what mics can do - “can you hear me” wouldn’t be a meme otherwise. Until that’s addressed it’s really a non-argument.
I guess I can agree that disposability is more of an individual thing, personally, I like wired headphones (Though, I don’t use them exclusively). And because of the very issue you mentioned, I normally buy headphones/earbuds that have replaceable cables. One hard-wired set got chewed by a dog, and I opened them up and replaced the cable with some soldering (Something that would be much harder on hardwired earbuds).
With regard to the phones, the laptops, etc… those have ways of using them with dead batteries, and often can have their batteries replaced.
This is the key difference with wireless earbuds (particularly earbuds much more so than wireless headphones in general). Wireless earbuds are extremely difficult to replace batteries on, if not literally impossible, and because of the very small capacity of the batteries, they tend to be charge cycled more and will chemically age faster.
My first Airpods lasted me a good 2 years of pretty heavy use, but towards the end the battery life was inconsistent. One bud was virtually useless, it died so fast, and I took the pair to apple to see what they might be able to do. They did me the favor of charging me the replacement cost of a single bud, but then replaced both buds and case (~$60). Not horrible, but definitely not ideal.
Mics, the bluetooth transport used for mics (two-way-SBC vs other enhanced codecs for one-way audio like AAC/AptX) is the horrible limiting factor. The physical capsules are definitely adequate, but it doesn’t matter if the audio can’t be sent to the phone at quality. I think you might have been referring to the cellular transport, but that really depends on how you’re making the call. VOIP Calls, VoLTE, etc are capable of very high quality audio, given a good source, which bt sbc mics are not. During covid we had people using the “best bluetooth mics” (Airpods pros) on their zoom calls and they sounded like CRAP. Plug in a cheap trusty pair of wired EarPods… crystal clear. Even the tiktok kids get that mic quality thing, thats why so many are using the mic from EarPods.
Anyway, no ill will. Kudos on the reusing of old tech… I often intend to, but I’ve had a habit of holding on to aging tech until its of virtually no use to anyone. So instead, lately, I’ve just been refurbishing things that I can and donating/giving them away.
They are not functional for the time it takes to get a useful charge into them. I’ll just pause that movie and pop my buds back into their charging case for a while, it’s so convenient. So, like I said, you have to maintain their charge, alongside the other devices that have to have their charge maintained.
A lot of it has to do with BLE running constantly in the background (things like find my buds, “easy connect” features with their own management app tend to use it). If you fly like, once a week , and have a headset for flying, you need to check on its charge, as BLE will slowly grind it down to nothing while it sits in your travel bag.
My noise-canceling, Bluetooth headphones in 2004 ran for 2 days, no problem (back when I was flying for work all the time).
What brand were they? I bought my current set of Bose corded noise cancelling headphones in 2015 precisely because battery life in Bluetooth products was still reasonably abysmal. I’m guessing that they were one of the very first sets to come out, seeing that regular consumer Bluetooth headphones only appeared on the market in 2003.
You’re arguing as if wireless audio is somehow better as ps2, etc was replaced by something better.
It’s simply not. You either buy a dumbass dongle or have to charge yet another thing. Along with that you can’t charge and listen to music at the same time without aforementioned dumb wireless ear buds.
It was a money grab, plain and simple. The 3.5 Jack is still monumentally viable and an asset.
But seriously, that highly subjective. I’ll take wireless over wired any day thanks. The inconvenience of having to charge the buds is not actually as bad as you’re making it out to be. You can charge and listen if you consider charging the case as still being charging the whole unit.
The convenience of not having to deal with the damm cables themselves outweighs the inconvenience of needing to occasionally charge them for me, and clearly I’m not alone.
Someone smarter than me can talk about audio quality over wireless, but when we’re talking about streaming music from Spotify, it’s moot anyway.
The fact is, for the vast majority of mobile users, wireless is an upgrade over wired.
But seriously, that highly subjective. I’ll take wireless over wired any day thanks.
You’re right, it is subjective. The point is, you don’t have to choose. You can have both and sacrifice nothing. But what you want is simply for everyone else to have fewer options.
you could have made the same argument for PS/2 mouse and keyboards, or anything using mini, and then later, micro USB.
You could but it would be a shit argument because that was a very logical and objective improvement and this is not.
The 3.5mm jack was first introduced in the 1950s
That is a pro, not a con. Because it means my headphones and other devices, regardless of how old, will still work just fine on brand new devices. Meanwhile your shitpod headphones will have to be thrown away after a year and you have to lick Tim Cook’s boots to buy another pair.
I just think there are enough wireless options (and adapters) available now that it’s not fair to knock fairphone for this decision anymore.
And all of them come with drawbacks, and having a headphone jack comes with none.
This is fundamentally where we disagree. See my other comment
That is a pro, not a con
Never said it was a con, nor did I mean to imply that jacks are obsolete overall, only that it’s a valid move to not include them on a device that is primarily used to stream audio and thus doesn’t need the extra fidelity. Unless you want to try and tell me that Joe Public should be lugging around gigabytes of flac files?
lick Tim Cook’s boots
Lol, personally I prefer the taste of Han Jong-hee or Kenichiro Yoshida’s boots
jack comes with none.
Respectfully, this is rose tinted glasses talking. Do you know what my wireless buds workflow is?
Open case
Insert buds into ears and wait for “Bluetooth connected”
Tap left bud
Music plays.
Compare that to
Pull out buds
Untangle cord
Pull out phone
Fumble jack into the microphone hole for 2 minutes
Look at device, and insert jack into correct hole.
Unlock phone
Open music app of choice
Hit play
Music plays
With wireless buds, I don’t even have to know exactly where my phone is. To say nothing of having to carry it around with me which, if you’re doing housework, or a workout can be a pain.
Also, anyone who’s ever had buds forcibly ripped from their ears because they’ve dropped their phone will tell you:
This is fundamentally where we disagree. See my other comment
I replied to “your other comment”.
only that it’s a valid move to not include them on a device that is primarily used to stream audio and thus doesn’t need the extra fidelity.
The fidelity is one of many many pros we have listed
Unless you want to try and tell me that Joe Public should be lugging around gigabytes of flac files?
I don’t understand what this has to do with anything.
Do you know what my wireless buds workflow is?
You’re missing the point. Pros and cons of each don’t matter because you don’t have to choose. You can have both. We had both, for decades. You can continue using whatever workflow you want. The existence of a headphone jack does not stop you from continuing to use Bluetooth. I was obviously referring to the cons of having the option of choosing wired.
I meant the one made elsewhere in this thread where I explain why I don’t think it’s a shit argument. I think the wireless is a legitimate upgrade over wired when we’re talking about a mobile phone.
The fidelity is one of many many pros we have listed
I don’t understand what this has to do with anything.
I’m trying to point out that your “pro” of better fidelity doesn’t mean anything in a space where people aren’t using a lossless format, and so aren’t taking advantage of that extra fidelity anyway. This is admittedly an area I’m not strong in, so I could well be wrong, but I don’t think there’s any difference between wired and wireless when the source is Spotify.
you don’t have to choose.
Alright, this is fair. It would be great to keep the option for both. However, I don’t think it’s fair to knock Fairphone for not offering this option though, particularly because it takes space on the pcb and is an extra component cost (yes, a small one, I admit)
People are calling it a money grab move to not include a headphone jack, and I just don’t think that’s fair.
I’m trying to point out that your “pro” of better fidelity doesn’t mean anything in a space where people aren’t using a lossless format
Some people do, though.
People are calling it a money grab move to not include a headphone jack, and I just don’t think that’s fair.
It’s absolutely fair because there’s no other legitimate explanation for removing it while simultaneously introducing your brand new wireless headphones. Just like there was no other legitimate explanation when Apple or Google or Samsung did it.
Fairphone’s entire brand is built around “sustainability” and they just shit all over it, so people are rightfully disappointed.
Tell me a pair of wireless headphones that are as good and around the same price as the moondrop Aria’s with extremely low latency (so they can be used for rhythm games) and can buy a replacement case for not too much.
Also Raycons are trash. Like they’re literally e-waste for how bad they are
Also Bluetooth’s audio quality is terrible when also using the microphone at the same time. So you can’t really make a call and enjoy listening to music at the same time
At that point you’re getting a very specific phone for a very specific purpose. It’s not the rule but the exception. So it doesn’t apply as a reason for any other phone. You’ve argued why the LG has a 3.5mm jack, not why Fairphone should have a 3.5mm jack. I’d also be curious as to how powerfully it can even drive headphones at that point. It must also have a stronger amplifier than most phones too. It’d be meaningless without it. What’s the point of high fidelity if it can’t drive headphones that can utilize it.
This is all getting away from the purpose of the Fairphone. It’s not a dedicated music player. It’s not advertising high fidelity music, psrticyij relation to other phones. I don’t think anyone is calling that LG phone “green” either.
Congratulations to anyone who can think of an edge case that wouldn’t apply to the Fairphone. Might as well mention a tensor chip not being in the Fairphone.
No one doesn’t know that you can use an adapter. No one wants to carry that around. They cost money and you have to keep track of them. And you can’t charge the phone and listen simultaneously.
They did not do it to improve waterproofing. We have had several phones over the course of decades that were both very water resistant and included headphone jacks, so you can just stop with that capitalist non-sense.
Those phones were presumably glued together and not as repairable as the Fairphone is. Which is very useful, but does lower your waterproof rating, hence the need to compensate elsewhere.
I really feel like people are too quick to assume malice, generally. Often, there are just trade-offs with no clearly-right answer, and it’s not obvious to folks like us on the outside what those trade-offs are.
Copying my reply to this same point from elsewhere:
Those phones were presumably glued together and not as repairable as the Fairphone is. Which is very useful, but does lower your waterproof rating, hence the need to compensate elsewhere.
I really feel like people are too quick to assume malice, generally. Often, there are just trade-offs with no clearly-right answer, and it’s not obvious to folks like us on the outside what those trade-offs are.
Ok, Fairphone lied I guess. You obviously no better than the manufacturers. It’s not like other phones with those jacks likely cost more to water proof those jacks or anything. Everything is always exactly the same and doesn’t cost extra to do anything differently.
Judging by how much phones cost I expect them to be water resistant and have headphone jack. And besides, Fairphone said they removed it because it was a “point of failure” while conveniently releasing their own wireless headphones.
If you’re considering buying one you might want to take into account that they removed the headphone jack so they can sell their own wireless buds and headphones.
I care less about the lack of a headphone jack and more about the lack of multiple ports
USB C is genuinely a great multiport, but all of these companies leave the phone with one port. People would care less if each phone had two ports, so you could plug in headphones via adapter while also charging
There are actually dongles which have both an audio jack and a USB c port. I never used one of those dongles though
I have. They tend to be poorly shielded so you get all kinds of hiss and other shenanigans in the audio when you’re charging and listening at the same time. The adapters exist, but I’ve yet to come across one that isn’t terrible.
Those suck worse than the old school 3.5mm splitters we all used back in the discman, and later iPod days.
The removal of the headphone jack is one of the worst developments in personal electronics over the last 30 years. Personally I hope that the EU’s next port mandate forces its reintroduction as Bluetooth headphones are an environmental catastrophe.
The lack of headphone jack is the sole reason I went with Samsung XCover 6Pro instead. Shame really, because I’m the kind of person who uses their device for +5 years, and prefer fixing stuff myself, but when Apple removed the headphone jack I made a decision to never buy a device without one if there’s an alternative with it and I’m still sticking with that. I bought an “outdated” laptop aswell because the newer model didn’t have USB-A, HDMI or a card reader. Ironically the most recent models now do.
Not really ironic. They’re all just copying whatever Apple does, and they backtracked on that stupid decision.
It’s Apple I’m talking about
you mean this strange old socket that is (at least for me) primarily used for collecting dust since almost a decade? yeah, personally I can live without it.
and this fortunately is not apple. You can use every brand of earbud and use all of the features, so I don’t really get your point at all. the phone is very good and I hope I will be able to use it until the 30s
Having a headphone jack will let you use any kind of headphone produced in the last 50 years, which has a 3.5mm jack. Also, while listening to music you could also charge your phone, if you choose to, but not with a USB-C only port. Furthermore, USB-C DACs are stupid, they are an annoyance, even the ones with the shortest cables - I broke three of them in two months because they’re idiotically designed and they don’t fold in my pocket - a thing that never happened with headphone cables.
You also don’t get a noticeable delay on the audio, which imo makes watching any video horrible
Two years in and providing a USB-C adapter my wife is still complaining that her current phone doesn’t have a headphone jack.
For my daughter I selected the phone mostly for repairability combined with colour choice, which landed me with Nokia - which ended up having a headphone jack. Didn’t pay attention to that, but she’s happy it is there.
Out of curiosity, what features are restricted on iPhones for off-brand earbuds?
I know with my iPhone 12 Siri is shit on my Sony linkbuds. It won’t read my messages like it would with the AirPods I replaced or allow me to reply with them
Tell me a pair of wireless headphones that are as good and around the same price as the moondrop Aria’s with extremely low latency (so they can be used for rhythm games) and can buy a replacement case for not too much.
Also Bluetooth’s audio quality is terrible when also using the microphone at the same time. So you can’t really make a call and enjoy listening to music at the same time
I agree with you, but why would you make a calla and listen to music at the same time?
I used to do it all the time during Corona while being home schooled.
Or when you simply just want to watch a video together.
I got a 30 dollar pair of knockoff ipods for my Samsung and the audio quality is better than the wired akg buds it came with. They also sell for less now. No issues with battery life and the case has a battery level display. They also can be wirelessly charged. They’re my favorites.
I always plug in my car stereo to that old socket in my car…
You might want to look into a bluetooth to FM radio dongle
I tried one, it sucked balls, it was a cheap brand though, so I’m open to recommendations.
That was one of the main reasons I was interested in their phones :/
I miss that modular phone people went crazy about for a week or 2 until it died out
Google bought and killed it
Any evidence for that theory? I guess I’ve used Bluetooth hesdphones for years, so I’ve not got skin in the game. Lots of android devices seem to not have a headphone jack. And each part removed is one less part to pay for, or replace, or have to water proof. I’ve not looked into it because I’m happy to trade sound quality for wireless convienece, but umarent headphones that use the usb c port comparable in quality to 3.5mm?
But if there’s a leaked memo or something that it was a concerted plan by the company that would certainly be bad.
I just keep a USB c dongle permanently attached to my wired headphones, I forget it’s there. It adds like 1" to the overall cable length. I basically just converted all my wired headphones into USB c headphones.
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I mean, I don’t know their other practices, but the removal of the headphone jack is hardly green washing. I’d bet it actually is more sustainable to not include it tbh, plus it is likely more affordable. Beyond that, with just looking into it, as I expected, they’re a more sustainable and repairable set of headphones compared to the rest of the market. Moreover, I highly doubt dropping the jack would drive folks to decide to buy these if they weren’t already. They’re not tiny earbuds. They’re over the ear which is generally something folks buy when they actually are looking for them.
Sometimes accelerated progress can lead to waste, but holding onto legacy tech for too long can also lead to waste.
The big issue with removing the headphones jack is just that it’s now impossible to use wired headphones while charging the phone.
For a lot of people that doesn’t matter but for some of us that’s a big deal. If they added a second USB-C port that would fix the issue.
But saying the 3.5 jack is legacy technology is also kinda wrong. A USB headset is not inherently better. You have to compare the digital audio converter that’s used. While USB headphones use their own dac, the jack uses the dac of the phone. So a cheap phone with high quality USB headphones will be better but a high quality phone with cheap USB headphones would be worse than using the jack.
Which even means jacks would be more sustainable because you only need one dac per phone rather than one per headphone.
And any form of wireless headphones are just inferior to wired connections.
just carry an entire usb hub with you
I didn’t say a USB headset is inherently better. The one on your phone isn’t inherently better either if you’re using a 3.5mm jack either. So the argument can work both ways. And to be honest, no phone really has amazing onboard DAC, and especially not the Fairphone.
Mmm now you’re dealing with powered devices that have another two batteries that wear out, plus the battery in the charging case, all the electronics involved, etc etc
Vs a simple plastic connector and an associated amplifier IC that costs about $3 in quantity.
You can still use a wired headset if you so wish with your $3 connector. But when someone wants wireless, it’s nice to have the option.
I don’t blame Fairphone trying to make their product less expensive to produce. It’s not like they’re the biggest sellers in the world or benefitting from economies of scale as much as other companies.
So what you’re saying is the existing crowd with the existing hardware should buy the adapter cable, which if you want to talk sustainability, is more resource intensive to produce than internal phone components, using considerably more copper/PVC/etc by having two connectors in it.
So that the crowd with Bluetooth, which is pretty much provided by every phone wifi chipset by default and is no doubt provided by a chipset like that in the Fairphone, can use Bluetooth.
I don’t blame them that much for trying to reduce costs/component count. But I do wonder how many potential customers a manufacturer who is trying to promote freedom of choice/software loses when they remove a particular freedom/choice from their phone.
Removing the headphone socket does grant an extra degree of waterproofing. You don’t have to make that area of the phone quite as robust either - a 3.5mm plug has quite a lot of leverage on your PCB when it’s plugged in. There’s now room on the PCB for … something else they need/want to put on there, another ram chip, a cubic centimetre for extra battery (which apple tried to justify as their reason), something like that.
But it does mean that they lose at least a few people who like the general simplicity of a wired connection.
Your first paragraph is wrong imo. A minority of users are using 3.5mm jack, including a port on the phone for all users results in more waste than having that minority buy an adapter that can be re used on any phone in the future.
Also please don’t argue that jack users aren’t a minority now. Most users don’t care about having the port on their phone, and most are happy with wireless.
I’ll argue what I want, it’s my opinion, just like it’s your opinion to state that my first paragraph is wrong, and to follow on I would like to counter-assert that most people just deal with what they get when they buy a phone and don’t get to have much say in the matter, whether they like it or not. :-)
If you agree that, in general , all users have headphones of some sort, and that both types of users can take said headphones along to their next phone, then:
I will argue that we still end up in the same position. That is, a single port (and internal chips) + cabled headphones needs less resources compared to using an existing multi purpose Bluetooth chip in the phone and now having two extra battery devices with electronics to provide reception and amplification in each bud (effectively duplicating that which was originally contained in the phone). I resist the idea that removing the headphone socket is somehow a “better” choice sustainability-wise, and I will continue to do so.
It would be even more sustainable to not include the Bluetooth module. Less parts means less material use (making it greener) and less cost of materials as well (making it cheaper). The phone has speakers for audio anyway. Who wants to carry around some second accessory like headphones or earbuds? It’s not like anyone has a perfectly valid use case for the Bluetooth module, right?
Also, it doesn’t feature a serial port. This phone is almost useless. /s
You forgot PS/2. No one’s gonna use this USB thing, it sucks.
Yeah I think so too
Is this a fair argument in 2023 with all the options for wireless headphones/buds? I feel like it still sucks because you can’t use your dollar store wired sets, but there are enough cheap raycon clones out now that it’s hardly a guaranteed secondary sale at this point.
It’s more about not being able to use existing high-end headphones and IEMs. It’s wasteful and expensive to replace those.
There are workarounds of course, but it’s never as nice as having a real headphone jack to work with.
I already have a good set of headphones. I don’t want to buy new ones or adapters, especially when I can just buy a device that they can plug straight into
Look, I do understand, and it took me a while to buy into the wireless buds thing, but you could have made the same argument for PS/2 mouse and keyboards, or anything using mini, and then later, micro USB.
The fact is, if you want to keep your old peripherals, but upgrade your main compute device, at some point you need to accept that you’ll need an adapter.
The 3.5mm jack was first introduced in the 1950s as a mini version of the 6.5mm jack… which was used as far back as 1878… it’s had a hell of a run, but if you weigh the pros and cons fairly, wireless as a standard has drawbacks, but is actually, ultimately an upgrade and it’s well overdue.
I just think there are enough wireless options (and adapters) available now that it’s not fair to knock fairphone for this decision anymore.
My main issue with all of this is that I’m not interested in maintaining a charge for yet another wireless device.
I’m a frequent flier for work. My wired noise cancelling headphones run on a single AAA battery for 14+ hours straight. I can buy a small pack of AAA batteries at the airport in 30 seconds and get 60 hours of listening time. I don’t have to worry about putting them back in their carrying/charger case. I don’t have to worry about charging that case. If they go flat and I don’t have a spare AAA battery (the case actually has a convenient hole for a spare AAA), they still work, albeit with a noisier background. And they plug into in flight entertainment system headphone sockets. Haven’t seen a Bluetooth option on IFE systems yet.
Would I want to go jogging with my wired headphones? No. I do have a pair of bose wireless earbuds, and they’re nice. But every time I think about using them, they are flat in their charging case. I don’t want to have to keep the charging case on charge soooooo for 90 percent of my usage , the wired ones it is.
My noise-canceling, Bluetooth headphones in 2004 ran for 2 days, no problem (back when I was flying for work all the time).
“Another thing to charge” is a strawman. They all use C or micro today, and headphones use so little power your laptop can easily charge them. Or even your phone.
What about their typically disposable nature?
Say I’m a fan of buds, but now I need wireless buds. No one makes ones that are made to have the battery replaced. They’re intended to be thrown away after the batteries wear out. While wired ones work forever, maybe needing a replacement cable, or to patch an existing cable… maybe.
Not to mention, audio quality. I’ll skip the buds quality themselves, bc some people claim to not be able to hear the difference… there are no bt headsets that have a mic that even approaches the quality of the old included buds from iPhones. None.
You mean the disposable nature of wired headphones with thin-as-hell 26/28 gauge wires that break if you look at them wrong?
I’ve broken more wired headsets than I’ve owned Bluetooth. I still have my ten+ year old noise-canceling bletooth headphones. I haven’t “disposed” them.
If things are disposed, it’s generally on the person, not the device.
I have multiple 2017 and older phones that still work, and get used as podcast/music players, security cameras, etc. I have a 1998 laptop I use to run Linux for testing. The batteries are toast, but so what.
Again, disposability is primarily a consumer issue, not a product one.
And I call BS on the sound quality. Given the nature of the source, and especially environments we’re in, noise is a huge factor. As for the microphone thing - the transport systems are far worse than what mics can do - “can you hear me” wouldn’t be a meme otherwise. Until that’s addressed it’s really a non-argument.
I guess I can agree that disposability is more of an individual thing, personally, I like wired headphones (Though, I don’t use them exclusively). And because of the very issue you mentioned, I normally buy headphones/earbuds that have replaceable cables. One hard-wired set got chewed by a dog, and I opened them up and replaced the cable with some soldering (Something that would be much harder on hardwired earbuds).
With regard to the phones, the laptops, etc… those have ways of using them with dead batteries, and often can have their batteries replaced.
This is the key difference with wireless earbuds (particularly earbuds much more so than wireless headphones in general). Wireless earbuds are extremely difficult to replace batteries on, if not literally impossible, and because of the very small capacity of the batteries, they tend to be charge cycled more and will chemically age faster.
My first Airpods lasted me a good 2 years of pretty heavy use, but towards the end the battery life was inconsistent. One bud was virtually useless, it died so fast, and I took the pair to apple to see what they might be able to do. They did me the favor of charging me the replacement cost of a single bud, but then replaced both buds and case (~$60). Not horrible, but definitely not ideal.
Mics, the bluetooth transport used for mics (two-way-SBC vs other enhanced codecs for one-way audio like AAC/AptX) is the horrible limiting factor. The physical capsules are definitely adequate, but it doesn’t matter if the audio can’t be sent to the phone at quality. I think you might have been referring to the cellular transport, but that really depends on how you’re making the call. VOIP Calls, VoLTE, etc are capable of very high quality audio, given a good source, which bt sbc mics are not. During covid we had people using the “best bluetooth mics” (Airpods pros) on their zoom calls and they sounded like CRAP. Plug in a cheap trusty pair of wired EarPods… crystal clear. Even the tiktok kids get that mic quality thing, thats why so many are using the mic from EarPods.
Anyway, no ill will. Kudos on the reusing of old tech… I often intend to, but I’ve had a habit of holding on to aging tech until its of virtually no use to anyone. So instead, lately, I’ve just been refurbishing things that I can and donating/giving them away.
They are not functional for the time it takes to get a useful charge into them. I’ll just pause that movie and pop my buds back into their charging case for a while, it’s so convenient. So, like I said, you have to maintain their charge, alongside the other devices that have to have their charge maintained.
A lot of it has to do with BLE running constantly in the background (things like find my buds, “easy connect” features with their own management app tend to use it). If you fly like, once a week , and have a headset for flying, you need to check on its charge, as BLE will slowly grind it down to nothing while it sits in your travel bag.
What brand were they? I bought my current set of Bose corded noise cancelling headphones in 2015 precisely because battery life in Bluetooth products was still reasonably abysmal. I’m guessing that they were one of the very first sets to come out, seeing that regular consumer Bluetooth headphones only appeared on the market in 2003.
You’re arguing as if wireless audio is somehow better as ps2, etc was replaced by something better.
It’s simply not. You either buy a dumbass dongle or have to charge yet another thing. Along with that you can’t charge and listen to music at the same time without aforementioned dumb wireless ear buds.
It was a money grab, plain and simple. The 3.5 Jack is still monumentally viable and an asset.
Ye, well, that’s just, like, your opinion man…
But seriously, that highly subjective. I’ll take wireless over wired any day thanks. The inconvenience of having to charge the buds is not actually as bad as you’re making it out to be. You can charge and listen if you consider charging the case as still being charging the whole unit.
The convenience of not having to deal with the damm cables themselves outweighs the inconvenience of needing to occasionally charge them for me, and clearly I’m not alone.
Someone smarter than me can talk about audio quality over wireless, but when we’re talking about streaming music from Spotify, it’s moot anyway.
The fact is, for the vast majority of mobile users, wireless is an upgrade over wired.
You’re right, it is subjective. The point is, you don’t have to choose. You can have both and sacrifice nothing. But what you want is simply for everyone else to have fewer options.
Well that’s great because even if they include a jack you guys can all still have that.
You could but it would be a shit argument because that was a very logical and objective improvement and this is not.
That is a pro, not a con. Because it means my headphones and other devices, regardless of how old, will still work just fine on brand new devices. Meanwhile your shitpod headphones will have to be thrown away after a year and you have to lick Tim Cook’s boots to buy another pair.
And all of them come with drawbacks, and having a headphone jack comes with none.
This is fundamentally where we disagree. See my other comment
Never said it was a con, nor did I mean to imply that jacks are obsolete overall, only that it’s a valid move to not include them on a device that is primarily used to stream audio and thus doesn’t need the extra fidelity. Unless you want to try and tell me that Joe Public should be lugging around gigabytes of flac files?
Lol, personally I prefer the taste of Han Jong-hee or Kenichiro Yoshida’s boots
Respectfully, this is rose tinted glasses talking. Do you know what my wireless buds workflow is?
Compare that to
With wireless buds, I don’t even have to know exactly where my phone is. To say nothing of having to carry it around with me which, if you’re doing housework, or a workout can be a pain.
Also, anyone who’s ever had buds forcibly ripped from their ears because they’ve dropped their phone will tell you:
Wired buds ALSO have drawbacks
I replied to “your other comment”.
The fidelity is one of many many pros we have listed
I don’t understand what this has to do with anything.
You’re missing the point. Pros and cons of each don’t matter because you don’t have to choose. You can have both. We had both, for decades. You can continue using whatever workflow you want. The existence of a headphone jack does not stop you from continuing to use Bluetooth. I was obviously referring to the cons of having the option of choosing wired.
I meant the one made elsewhere in this thread where I explain why I don’t think it’s a shit argument. I think the wireless is a legitimate upgrade over wired when we’re talking about a mobile phone.
I’m trying to point out that your “pro” of better fidelity doesn’t mean anything in a space where people aren’t using a lossless format, and so aren’t taking advantage of that extra fidelity anyway. This is admittedly an area I’m not strong in, so I could well be wrong, but I don’t think there’s any difference between wired and wireless when the source is Spotify.
Alright, this is fair. It would be great to keep the option for both. However, I don’t think it’s fair to knock Fairphone for not offering this option though, particularly because it takes space on the pcb and is an extra component cost (yes, a small one, I admit)
People are calling it a money grab move to not include a headphone jack, and I just don’t think that’s fair.
Some people do, though.
It’s absolutely fair because there’s no other legitimate explanation for removing it while simultaneously introducing your brand new wireless headphones. Just like there was no other legitimate explanation when Apple or Google or Samsung did it.
Fairphone’s entire brand is built around “sustainability” and they just shit all over it, so people are rightfully disappointed.
Tell me a pair of wireless headphones that are as good and around the same price as the moondrop Aria’s with extremely low latency (so they can be used for rhythm games) and can buy a replacement case for not too much.
Also Raycons are trash. Like they’re literally e-waste for how bad they are
Also Bluetooth’s audio quality is terrible when also using the microphone at the same time. So you can’t really make a call and enjoy listening to music at the same time
Who is listening to music on the same headset while making a phone call?
And why use your phone’s onboard DAC at that point if you want quality headphones?
Some phones (LG) did actually come with a HQ DAC.
At that point you’re getting a very specific phone for a very specific purpose. It’s not the rule but the exception. So it doesn’t apply as a reason for any other phone. You’ve argued why the LG has a 3.5mm jack, not why Fairphone should have a 3.5mm jack. I’d also be curious as to how powerfully it can even drive headphones at that point. It must also have a stronger amplifier than most phones too. It’d be meaningless without it. What’s the point of high fidelity if it can’t drive headphones that can utilize it.
This is all getting away from the purpose of the Fairphone. It’s not a dedicated music player. It’s not advertising high fidelity music, psrticyij relation to other phones. I don’t think anyone is calling that LG phone “green” either.
Congratulations to anyone who can think of an edge case that wouldn’t apply to the Fairphone. Might as well mention a tensor chip not being in the Fairphone.
You can also buy a cheap USB C-to-headphone-jack adapter.
The main reason they did it is to get a higher water-proof rating, making it easier to last longer.
No one doesn’t know that you can use an adapter. No one wants to carry that around. They cost money and you have to keep track of them. And you can’t charge the phone and listen simultaneously.
They did not do it to improve waterproofing. We have had several phones over the course of decades that were both very water resistant and included headphone jacks, so you can just stop with that capitalist non-sense.
Those phones were presumably glued together and not as repairable as the Fairphone is. Which is very useful, but does lower your waterproof rating, hence the need to compensate elsewhere.
I really feel like people are too quick to assume malice, generally. Often, there are just trade-offs with no clearly-right answer, and it’s not obvious to folks like us on the outside what those trade-offs are.
Please stop with water resistance nonsense. There were phones with headphone jacks that were waterproof.
Copying my reply to this same point from elsewhere:
Galaxy S5 not only had a headphone jack and was water resistant but it had a removable battery as well.
Could you also replace the screen, camera’s, USB port, loudspeaker and earpiece with nothing but a screwdriver?
I don’t see how is exclusion of headphone jack going to help with water resistance if everything is held with screws anyway.
My guess would be that it’s one less hole that water/dust can get in?
If they figured out a way to keep it out of usb c hole then it isn’t a rocket science to keep the water from going in through headphone jack.
Ok, Fairphone lied I guess. You obviously no better than the manufacturers. It’s not like other phones with those jacks likely cost more to water proof those jacks or anything. Everything is always exactly the same and doesn’t cost extra to do anything differently.
Judging by how much phones cost I expect them to be water resistant and have headphone jack. And besides, Fairphone said they removed it because it was a “point of failure” while conveniently releasing their own wireless headphones.
Louis Rossman was very against this idea, and gotta say I side with him on this.
Would be helpful if you could share why he was against that idea.
It has been a long time since I watched his video, don’t remember what his points were but check it out for yourself. Here.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Here
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Hehe thanks, I’m not a fan of watching videos, but I understand you don’t feel like rehashing the points here either :)