Yeah JBP is famous outside of his mentor crowd for different reasons. Some people flock to him for guidance, and others look at his other takes and judge him as a whole. It would be akin to having a conversation about good leadership skills and bringing up Hitler as a good model for using effective communication skills for uniting his base regardless of the outcome. I am not talking about Hitlers history of racism or politics.
I just want you to acknowledge that many people dont come to JBP for his stance on religion or trans issues. They come for a fatherly role model. I want you to criticize that not his stance on whatever philosophical problem because they can be seperated. If you can show me an example where it needs to be together then that is acceptable.
I see what you’re saying “you can dig through this pile of shit (racism, homophobia, and other bigotry) and find a nugget of gold (basic ass advice on self help and leadership)” and that’s as true for JP as it is for Hitler.
I think what everyone else is saying is “WHY?!??” why are you fighting so hard to dig through the shit. There are many people handing out that gold with very little shit digging required.
When you fight so hard for the right to dig through that much shit to find small amounts of easily accessible gold, people are going to rightfully start to think it’s not just the gold you’re after.
Im losing confidence that you have anything to bring to the table other than dog whistle style messages. I am not trying to defend the guy on all moral positions, i am just looking for this one thing. Its either you know or you dont.
Nothing in what I said is a dog whistle. You clearly don’t know what that term means.
This is the first time I responded to you and I was pretty clear: when you support heinous people so ardently you can’t blame people for assuming you support heinous people.
I just want you to acknowledge that many people dont come to JBP for his stance on religion or trans issues.
That’s kinda how propaganda works… Even if you don’t come for the trans and religion dogma, you will be exposed to it.
Hitler as a good model for using effective communication skills for uniting his base regardless of the outcome.
Lol, it’s the same model… Invent a boogie man, lie, cheat, steal, and hurl abuse at those who oppose you. Yes, it would be like bringing up hitlers “leadership skill”. But, then ignoring the reality of what that “leadership” really entailed.
show me an example where it needs to be together then that is acceptable.
You can’t separate the two because he does not separate them. His philosophy leads him to believe in, and justify his own dogmatic views.
This is not a “separate the art from the artist” as this person’s art is getting people to embody his own philosophy.
Thats not how propoganda works. Im asking you to formulate an opinion on one subject matter. I can talk about the bible on how it is the most important piece of literature of all time and not be indoctrinated.
You can take a quote of his, show me that it is both intended to bolster his dogmatic philosophy while also empowering young men. That would be an acceptable example. If you can show me that he does this I will give this to you.
Lol, so telling people what they want to hear under ulterior motivations isn’t propaganda?
Im asking you to formulate an opinion on one subject matter.
You are, but JP isn’t… That’s the whole point. His ideology involves embodied cognition, one which implores you to adopt a new set of behaviors and practices. He doesn’t just want to change how you think about one subject, he wants you to make systemic behavioural changes.
I can talk about the bible on how it is the most important piece of literature of all time and not be indoctrinated.
Yes, and I can talk about JP without being indoctrinated. However I can’t practice Christianity or JPs ideology without being indoctrinated. Practice in action is part of the indoctrination process.
You can take a quote of his, show me that it is both intended to bolster his dogmatic philosophy while also empowering young men.
His dogmatic philosophy was created to rile up young men, they are inseparable. The simple fact that you believe that young men need to be empowered is evidence of your indoctrination. What group of young people has more power and opportunities than young men in the west?
Just by being born in the US as a male makes me one of the most empowered beings on the planet. I have more influence over my government than most every other citizen on the planet. I will create and capture more wealth than nearly any other citizen on the planet. I have more opportunity in education and job placement than nearly any other person on the planet. There are nearly 8 billion people on the earth and the only other people who have an opportunity better than me are maybe a hundred million dudes who were born with more wealth. You haven’t had your opportunity or “power” taken from you, you’re just lazy, which is perfectly fine. The only problem with laziness occurs when you are also massively entitled.
Jordan Peterson’s entire scam is giving young economically disadvantaged men something to blame for their woes. Instead of blaming the shareholder, the management, or even economic policy, it’s because “men aren’t just allowed to be men anymore”. He takes that idea and mixes it with actual bits of stolen philosophy and pop psychology.
If there is anything meaningfully beneficial in his teachings, it’s scaffolding was erected by someone else. Why dig through the massive pile of shit when you could just go read the people he scavenged it from? Why read JP when you could just read Descartes or Heidegger, hell if you wanted the pop application of Enactivism go read Marie Kondo. She will also tell you to clean your room, but with 100% less transphobia.
What group of young people has more power and opportunities than young men in the west?
Its pretty sad to hear someone outright bully someone. Its not fair to judge the people desperate for compassion. Some of these guys have grown up without a father figure or they are at the edge of suicide and you tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Why dig through the massive pile of shit when you could just go read the people he scavenged it from?
I am not arguing that you cant find it somewhere else. I am arguing that he exists with this purpose and that he is an easy resource that provides a guiding substance young men desire. I dont even listen to him, i am asking why do young men flock to him if he is not what they want? Is it because they dont know about Heidegger of Marie Kondo or is it that they arent as widely known/popular? (Tbh this is the first time in my life ive heard those names.)
Stop assuming these young men have a burning desire to sift through hundreds if not thousands of options. These guys that seek out guidance are the types that are generally desperate. JBP might not be the best person but hes a figurehead for this space currently.
Its pretty sad to hear someone outright bully someone.
Lol, me disproving your unsupported claim that young men need empowerment is totally bullying…
Its not fair to judge the people desperate for compassion.
Huh, have you told Jordan Peterson that? If those people are utilizing their “empowerment” to displace the power of other actual disenfranchised groups… I’m totally fine with judging them.
On a side bar, being desperate for compassion has nothing to do with empowering young men. To seek empowerment is to seek power over people, you don’t connect to people by gathering power.
Some of these guys have grown up without a father figure or they are at the edge of suicide
And what does that have to do with empowering young men? They aren’t sad because they aren’t masculine enough, or disciplined enough. They have emotional baggage and should be seeking guidance from an actual therapist, not through some parasocial relationship with some bigot.
I am arguing that he exists with this purpose and that he is an easy resource that provides a guiding substance young men desire.
I don’t think you can speak for him or other young men… Nor can you really claim that he’s benefitted anyone with his ideology. I’m sure lots of people thought Jim Jones was helping them at the time. I’ve known people who got into JP and they thought he was helping him “make gains”, he wasn’t, he was just loosing friends.
why do young men flock to him if he is not what they want?
Because it easier to blame scapegoats like wokeism and feminist than it is to blame something more enigmatic like our current economic system.
The vast majority of JPs fans are young white men from the western hemisphere. People who 50 years ago would have been almost guaranteed the sweet middle class life if they could just learn a trade or go to college.
Well that’s not the case anymore for anyone. After the destruction of unions, the ever increasing profits reserves for shareholders, and the popularization of aggressive labour cutting management, were all in the same boat. If history has taught us anything is that to the privileged class, equality feels an awful lot like oppression.
These young men need a reason why they aren’t as successful as their grandfather’s, but they’re not ready to give up seeing the world in rose tinted glasses. They don’t want change, they want to revert back to the time where young white dudes got to catch the free ride.
I dont even listen to him
Then why would you state “I’ve never heard him state that”? Wouldn’t that have been redundant if you haven’t actually listened to him?
You don’t have be dishonest, you are entitled to have an opinion. However if you are engaging me with that opinion than I am entitled to explain why I think it’s wrong.
Is it because they dont know about Heidegger of Marie Kondo or is it that they arent as widely known/popular? (Tbh this is the first time in my life ive heard those names.)
Quite possible, our education system is a hot pile of trash. Heidegger is one of the fathers of embodied cognition, A philosophical and psychological theory that puts forth the idea that cognition is a dynamic development between an organism and it’s environment.
Basically, physical engagement with your environment is the most important aspect of cognition. This is why JP has you clean your room, it gets you to physically engage with your environment in a way that is manageable and achievable for everyone. Teaching people that physical engagement(embodiment) is the first step towards metaphysical problem solving.
The reason that this is dangerous is because it requires young men to embody(practice) the teachings enable to understand them. Which can be devastating if the teachings are being given by a insane person.
Marie Kando is kinda the nice version of JP. She utilizes embodied psych as well, but she’s responsible enough to limit what she teaches to practical things around the house hold. She is way way more popular than JP and is one of the best selling authors in recent history.
Stop assuming these young men have a burning desire to sift through hundreds if not thousands of options.
If these young men were actually in need, they would find actual help. The simple fact is that their needs are no greater than anyone else in the same age bracket. They’re just being told that they need help, because someone wants to sell them “help”.
but hes a figurehead for this space currently
Yes, because he’s one of the people who created the space in the first place. Jordan Peterson is just Andrew Tate for the pseudo intellectual, I could literally use your same exact arguments to support his popularity among young men. Do you hold the same respect for a literal human trafficker?
Yeah JBP is famous outside of his mentor crowd for different reasons. Some people flock to him for guidance, and others look at his other takes and judge him as a whole. It would be akin to having a conversation about good leadership skills and bringing up Hitler as a good model for using effective communication skills for uniting his base regardless of the outcome. I am not talking about Hitlers history of racism or politics.
I just want you to acknowledge that many people dont come to JBP for his stance on religion or trans issues. They come for a fatherly role model. I want you to criticize that not his stance on whatever philosophical problem because they can be seperated. If you can show me an example where it needs to be together then that is acceptable.
I see what you’re saying “you can dig through this pile of shit (racism, homophobia, and other bigotry) and find a nugget of gold (basic ass advice on self help and leadership)” and that’s as true for JP as it is for Hitler.
I think what everyone else is saying is “WHY?!??” why are you fighting so hard to dig through the shit. There are many people handing out that gold with very little shit digging required.
When you fight so hard for the right to dig through that much shit to find small amounts of easily accessible gold, people are going to rightfully start to think it’s not just the gold you’re after.
Im losing confidence that you have anything to bring to the table other than dog whistle style messages. I am not trying to defend the guy on all moral positions, i am just looking for this one thing. Its either you know or you dont.
Nothing in what I said is a dog whistle. You clearly don’t know what that term means.
This is the first time I responded to you and I was pretty clear: when you support heinous people so ardently you can’t blame people for assuming you support heinous people.
That’s kinda how propaganda works… Even if you don’t come for the trans and religion dogma, you will be exposed to it.
Lol, it’s the same model… Invent a boogie man, lie, cheat, steal, and hurl abuse at those who oppose you. Yes, it would be like bringing up hitlers “leadership skill”. But, then ignoring the reality of what that “leadership” really entailed.
You can’t separate the two because he does not separate them. His philosophy leads him to believe in, and justify his own dogmatic views.
This is not a “separate the art from the artist” as this person’s art is getting people to embody his own philosophy.
Thats not how propoganda works. Im asking you to formulate an opinion on one subject matter. I can talk about the bible on how it is the most important piece of literature of all time and not be indoctrinated.
You can take a quote of his, show me that it is both intended to bolster his dogmatic philosophy while also empowering young men. That would be an acceptable example. If you can show me that he does this I will give this to you.
Lol, so telling people what they want to hear under ulterior motivations isn’t propaganda?
You are, but JP isn’t… That’s the whole point. His ideology involves embodied cognition, one which implores you to adopt a new set of behaviors and practices. He doesn’t just want to change how you think about one subject, he wants you to make systemic behavioural changes.
Yes, and I can talk about JP without being indoctrinated. However I can’t practice Christianity or JPs ideology without being indoctrinated. Practice in action is part of the indoctrination process.
His dogmatic philosophy was created to rile up young men, they are inseparable. The simple fact that you believe that young men need to be empowered is evidence of your indoctrination. What group of young people has more power and opportunities than young men in the west?
Just by being born in the US as a male makes me one of the most empowered beings on the planet. I have more influence over my government than most every other citizen on the planet. I will create and capture more wealth than nearly any other citizen on the planet. I have more opportunity in education and job placement than nearly any other person on the planet. There are nearly 8 billion people on the earth and the only other people who have an opportunity better than me are maybe a hundred million dudes who were born with more wealth. You haven’t had your opportunity or “power” taken from you, you’re just lazy, which is perfectly fine. The only problem with laziness occurs when you are also massively entitled.
Jordan Peterson’s entire scam is giving young economically disadvantaged men something to blame for their woes. Instead of blaming the shareholder, the management, or even economic policy, it’s because “men aren’t just allowed to be men anymore”. He takes that idea and mixes it with actual bits of stolen philosophy and pop psychology.
If there is anything meaningfully beneficial in his teachings, it’s scaffolding was erected by someone else. Why dig through the massive pile of shit when you could just go read the people he scavenged it from? Why read JP when you could just read Descartes or Heidegger, hell if you wanted the pop application of Enactivism go read Marie Kondo. She will also tell you to clean your room, but with 100% less transphobia.
Its pretty sad to hear someone outright bully someone. Its not fair to judge the people desperate for compassion. Some of these guys have grown up without a father figure or they are at the edge of suicide and you tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
I am not arguing that you cant find it somewhere else. I am arguing that he exists with this purpose and that he is an easy resource that provides a guiding substance young men desire. I dont even listen to him, i am asking why do young men flock to him if he is not what they want? Is it because they dont know about Heidegger of Marie Kondo or is it that they arent as widely known/popular? (Tbh this is the first time in my life ive heard those names.)
Stop assuming these young men have a burning desire to sift through hundreds if not thousands of options. These guys that seek out guidance are the types that are generally desperate. JBP might not be the best person but hes a figurehead for this space currently.
Lol, me disproving your unsupported claim that young men need empowerment is totally bullying…
Huh, have you told Jordan Peterson that? If those people are utilizing their “empowerment” to displace the power of other actual disenfranchised groups… I’m totally fine with judging them.
On a side bar, being desperate for compassion has nothing to do with empowering young men. To seek empowerment is to seek power over people, you don’t connect to people by gathering power.
And what does that have to do with empowering young men? They aren’t sad because they aren’t masculine enough, or disciplined enough. They have emotional baggage and should be seeking guidance from an actual therapist, not through some parasocial relationship with some bigot.
I don’t think you can speak for him or other young men… Nor can you really claim that he’s benefitted anyone with his ideology. I’m sure lots of people thought Jim Jones was helping them at the time. I’ve known people who got into JP and they thought he was helping him “make gains”, he wasn’t, he was just loosing friends.
Because it easier to blame scapegoats like wokeism and feminist than it is to blame something more enigmatic like our current economic system.
The vast majority of JPs fans are young white men from the western hemisphere. People who 50 years ago would have been almost guaranteed the sweet middle class life if they could just learn a trade or go to college.
Well that’s not the case anymore for anyone. After the destruction of unions, the ever increasing profits reserves for shareholders, and the popularization of aggressive labour cutting management, were all in the same boat. If history has taught us anything is that to the privileged class, equality feels an awful lot like oppression.
These young men need a reason why they aren’t as successful as their grandfather’s, but they’re not ready to give up seeing the world in rose tinted glasses. They don’t want change, they want to revert back to the time where young white dudes got to catch the free ride.
Then why would you state “I’ve never heard him state that”? Wouldn’t that have been redundant if you haven’t actually listened to him?
You don’t have be dishonest, you are entitled to have an opinion. However if you are engaging me with that opinion than I am entitled to explain why I think it’s wrong.
Quite possible, our education system is a hot pile of trash. Heidegger is one of the fathers of embodied cognition, A philosophical and psychological theory that puts forth the idea that cognition is a dynamic development between an organism and it’s environment.
Basically, physical engagement with your environment is the most important aspect of cognition. This is why JP has you clean your room, it gets you to physically engage with your environment in a way that is manageable and achievable for everyone. Teaching people that physical engagement(embodiment) is the first step towards metaphysical problem solving.
The reason that this is dangerous is because it requires young men to embody(practice) the teachings enable to understand them. Which can be devastating if the teachings are being given by a insane person.
Marie Kando is kinda the nice version of JP. She utilizes embodied psych as well, but she’s responsible enough to limit what she teaches to practical things around the house hold. She is way way more popular than JP and is one of the best selling authors in recent history.
If these young men were actually in need, they would find actual help. The simple fact is that their needs are no greater than anyone else in the same age bracket. They’re just being told that they need help, because someone wants to sell them “help”.
Yes, because he’s one of the people who created the space in the first place. Jordan Peterson is just Andrew Tate for the pseudo intellectual, I could literally use your same exact arguments to support his popularity among young men. Do you hold the same respect for a literal human trafficker?