- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
You must log in or register to comment.
I keep seeing this kind of argument, and I understand, but I disagree.
The comparison isn’t between using an ai service and doing it yourself, but rather between using an ai service and commissioning an actual artist. I can afford $20/mo for infinite mediocrity. I cannot afford $20/image (or more depending on the artist).
Of course, there is a flaw in my argument, in that I was assuming that the techbro was being honest. People aggressively pushing dalle or midjourney or whatever aren’t interested in “making art accessible”. They hate art and artists, and want to force creative types to be miserable doing jobs they hate. I have to remind myself that this is the kind of person that the comic is complaining about.
As much as i hate AI generated art, this is a shit argument. You can run an AI on your phone (which you would have anyway) without a subscription. You can also doodle on your phone for free.
Also if you’re not an idiot you can buy a workable smart phone for 100$ if you want
Yeah I feel it would be better if they they have shown the sheer cost of making these models and their upkeep instead.
It’s perfectly fine price to use in cancer treatment. But when they mention AI girlfriends I want to scream.
It’s not even the cost of training the AI. A better argument is that using AI for art is pure fucking laziness in 99.9% of cases.
Also, why have an AI waifu when you can have a real one and touch grass at the same time?
why are you assuming that someone who wants to make art would have a phone anyway? some people are poor
Smart phones are so cheap and plentiful that even most homeless people can afford them.
It’s actually a really safe bet that people have phones even if they have nothing else. You would be right more often then not.
My friend, phones can be very cheap and accessable and most has one. Like one of the comments said below said, you can find a cheap phone for under 100 dollars.
keep in mind that 40% of the global population doesn’t own a smartphone.
that’s billions of people that you’re leaving out of your analysis which doesn’t sound very fair to them. you don’t understand poverty because you’re assuming your living conditions will be the same as theirs.
Do i have to consider every person alive whenever i make a comment? of course, people in poverty will have different ways of doing things and won’t be able to afford things you and I can. I thought this is a given, no?
you have to consider whether the points you make reflect the reality of billions of people on earth. i don’t know what’s so hard about it
You would only need to consider that if it would be applicable to a reason view on the statement being made.
In a topic about AI and smart phones considering every single toddler, child and geriatric for example doesn’t make sense. Considering every single people entirely uninterested in tech would be unreasonable.
So no, no one would find it reasonable that you would need to consider billions of people in a topic that only really makes sense to a fraction of a fraction.
Lol right, because there are no free AI art services and you need a dedicated iPhone to do AI art. OP forgot to add $400 for a leather upholstered “gaming chair”.
I’m sure those free services run on pure hopes and dreams and will do so forever.
Also this looks like a meme made on a $180 drawing tablet.
Ok, we need to redefine what art is. Artist is. I’m so lost…
Hehe “borrowed”
I have a pretty quick ~$500 phone (snapdragon 8 gen 3) and tried this local AI app once (just something on fdroid, you could probably find it) but the experience was pretty terrible. Like a minute per image on the small local models from 2022. I’m sure you could do better, but my conclusion is that an $800 phone is as useful as a $60 phone for generative ai because you’re going to have to use some remote service anyways.
A minute per image, on a pocket computer, sounds like Marty McFly Jr. making a three-second pizza and going "C’mon, c’mon!’
Could not agree more. I don’t do anything with AI but that is kind of amazing hahaha
Forgot the
Disability
Part
Society thinks everyone is able-bodied. Until a machine is made so I can draw directly with my mind, creating art is a pipe dream. I need something that doesn’t require any type of force, so no pencils, pens, mice, etc. I always associate the word “accessible” with disabled people so this meme was funny to me.
My friend, how did you make this comment without any type of force? is it a speech to text thing? If so, it might be possible for you to do art of some kind.
😮💨 Sorry but I am not looking for suggestions that I have to explain why I’m too disabled for it to work. Speech to text will not work.
in that case i hope you can forgive me for prying about your condition. I won’t push further and i’m sorry if i came across rude. i hope you have a fantastic day.
I mean, pen plotters allow you to draw anything even if you can only type and they are definitely used to make some beautiful art. And if you can’t afford that, you can probably create algorithmic art on the device you are reading this comment from!
Thanks for the suggestion, but after looking into this it would not work out for my disabilities.
Here is a video of a disabled artist drawing with their mouth:
https://www.instagram.com/g.darkins/p/DCPqpuihYCz/?img_index=1
Final Result:
Please do not insult disabled artists like that.
Another thread:
I am going to try to say this as polite as possible. You should never compare people’s disabilities, especially in an attempt to invalidate them. No one has insulted disabled artists, however you are being offensive. I see you have been led astray by the second person, but this is just … off-putting. Yes there are people in wheelchairs who can work, and those who can’t. The first group does not make the second group lazy. Some disabled people will have certain activities they cannot do and no amount of individual practice/hard work/effort will change it. Being a member of a group does not exclude them from being offensive (women can be misogynists, etc.). The second person is literally using their status as a disabled person to put down other disabled people, I mean wtf.
What someone practiced can do with nothing, and what a newbie can do with nothing, drastically differ.
These dipshits are trying to communicate that this tech offers half-decent results. Immediately. For no effort. They could surely do better, themselves… if they spent an entire year trying. Opportunity be damned, most people just don’t want to. Developing a skill is a process that sucks. Vanishingly few people learn to paint portraits, and code games, and play piano. But any idiot can now use a program to do a half-assed job of all three.
Experienced artists, programmers, and musicians will recognize the flaws. They can declare the results useless slop. But it’s being generated by people who would do even worse without it.
Source (Mastodon)
Anyone can cook too, but I bet you’d rather have a generic regular meal than something burnt to a crisp.
That’s the vibe the napkin gives.
Anyone can cook too, but I bet you’d rather have a generic regular meal than something burnt to a crisp.
No, I would rather get a range of meals between bad and amazing that people put effort into making rather then the same canned mediocrity of a machine.
Go burn some eggs to a char, eat that, and say it’s better than a microwave frozen dinner.
Not everyone is excellent at everything. That’s why there’s specializations.
Some people like to draw, but many just like to see, much like how everyone eats but not necessarily everyone likes to cook. Not everyone likes making art.
I love cooking, and constantly make complex plates.
My wife? It’s extremely stressful for her, and if there was a machine that could just make decent dishes for her when I can’t cook, I’d rather her use that (and I bet she would too).
The other thing you’re confusing is hobby vs need/want.
If I need/want a basic generic wallpaper for some reason, I’m not going to be able to make it, nor do I want to learn to make it, or have time to make it - I already have other things to do / that I like to do instead, like coding or cooking or just plain old work. My wife is actually a talented artist, but I wouldn’t force her to make generic thing she has no interest in making either. For these cases, I spin up the local open source diffusion model (because I’m definitely not paying a company for it, let alone an AI one) and make it in seconds because it’s not something I need to be perfect or with soul etc. Just like we don’t all need to eat 5 star Michelin meals every day (or can).
Even she uses it to look at different styles or get ideas, or even to make something quickly, because it’s better for her than to spend hours making it. And since she actually studied art, she can actually use it better than I, because she knows all the technical art jargon for using in the prompt.
I get that you love art, but just to put you in perspective, you’re acting no different than a hardcore Christian trying to convert an atheist. Sometimes people are okay with a frozen microwave dinner.
That’s nice.
Meanwhile, the average person only sees results. They do not seem to share your fundamental aversion to how a JPG was made. They didn’t experience whatever grand philosophical journey produced it. It doesn’t need to be artisanal grass-fed human Art.™ It either provokes an emotional response, or not.
If AI slop is a text in the absence of subtext, it is still a text. Comes with death-of-the-author built in. And people can still say something with works they did not make themselves… as you’re doing right now.
Meanwhile, the average person only sees results. They do not seem to share your fundamental aversion to how a JPG was made. They didn’t experience whatever grand philosophical journey produced it. It doesn’t need to be artisanal grass-fed human Art.™ It either provokes an emotional response, or not.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19368623.2024.2368040
And people can still say something with works they did not make themselves… as you’re doing right now.
Are you seriously suggesting that sharing something made by somebody else is the same as it being made by nobody at all?
I’m suggesting people can communicate with images regardless of who made them. What they’re communicating does not have to resemble what an artist originally intended. Surprised Pikachu face.
You could pick ten nature shots out of some catalog, and tell a story just by arranging them in a certain order. If you later found out one image was generated - how would that change your story?
Can you imagine how funny it would be, if that ‘I don’t want your slop’ image turned out to be made in Midjourney? Not one pixel would change, but half the people celebrating it would declare it never meant anything to them. How could it? It’s not art. Anymore.
Meanwhile, Duchamp put a toilet in a museum. He didn’t make it. He just signed it.
I would never be able to write that well
But eh, people with disabilities don’t exist we shouldn’t try to find solutions for them
Here is a video of a disabled artist drawing with their mouth: https://www.instagram.com/g.darkins/p/DCPqpuihYCz/?img_index=1
Final Result:
Please do not insult disabled artists like that.
Another thread:
What does that phrase even mean? Asking something else to make something for you is not artistic, so it can’t be that. People who commission other humans to make things aren’t suddenly artists. If they literally just mean consumption of images, it’s not as if web searching for images has been difficult for the last couple decades at this point. If you don’t care about art at all and just want content, there are lifetimes of things you could look for readily available to indulge. Just start typing and away you go! Literally the only thing that has changed is that now you are accelerating dead internet theory and removing human interaction from what you consume. Of course, if you don’t care about art that is a moot point, since human self-expression and communication never meant anything to you in the first place.
At best, the phrase should be specialized, on demand consumption of niche content is more accessible, not art.
Artists understand that art is primarily about self-expression. Non-artists often instead think art is about producing nice pictures. When all nice pictures come with self-expression baked in, the two groups seem to be on the same page, but when a computer makes nice pictures that are completely devoid of self-expression, we find out they’re not on the same page at all.
Right, people never make art just for money. The animation outsourcing industry loves when you can tell who drew each frame.
That’s the thing about human-made art: even when it’s just cranked out for a job, there’s still an element of self-expression to it just from it having been made using skills honed through self-expression.
Yet absolutely none of that when someone spends five hours editing text to match the image in their head.
Correct
How.
The self-expression of art is in its creation, not in its final product. Yes, the self-expression usually results in differences in the final product - if you hired 2 people to make a painting off of the same detailed description, they would be different paintings, largely because of differences in self-expression. However, if you were to, for example, hire 2 different artists to make perfect copies of the same painting, to the point where they’re indistinguishable from each other, the self-expression would still come in when one artist uses a different tool than the other, or starts with a different base color. The methods both still result in an identical final product, and so the product doesn’t showcase their unique self-expression, but the creation is separate, and unique to the artist.
Notably, you, the person who asked them to make the art, contributed nothing but a prompt. Yes, that prompt resulted in nice pictures that you wanted, but the self-expression - the thing that makes it art - was entirely someone else’s. It’s their art, they just made it for you. AI “art” is the same thing, except it’s made by a lifeless computer devoid of self expression. So, it’s still your nice picture, but there’s no self-expression at all, and so it’s not art.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, OOP is mocking the supposed barriers to art that AI users will bring up as an excuse to use AI.
i think they just want it to look impressive without the big effort to learn how to make it look impressive yourself. that kind of accessibility.
thats part of the reason why i doodle around with ai, but you can definetly make it into self expression if you know how to express yourself.
but you can definetly make it into self expression if you know how to express yourself.
tbh, as someone not terribly skilled in pencil drawing, this is how it feels like when i make a mistake but end up liking it. i don’t always have an exact clear picture of what i want to make either.
But it’s your “mistake” (remember, we don’t make those), not something implanted into your head from the outside.
i see your point, though you can technically iron out every detail if you are proficient enough at prompting it, and have a complete picture in your mind.
No, sorry, you don’t see my point. You’re presented by AI with an image that isn’t yours and it overwrites the one that was in your head because it’s vaguely similar. It’s killing your own imagination in favour of an inferior “version”. The one with your “mistake” is yours only, it came from your head and nowhere else and it might lead to something so much better than anything by an AI that you settle for because it’s “good enough”.
I don’t think my minds eye is that clear.
Doesn’t matter. That’s the first panel where the artist develops the image in their mind step by step. Not to mention there are great artists who have no mind’s eye at all (aphantasia).
I wish we could start arguing about the ethics of compensation for training data and requiring a concrete way to both protect opt-out, as well as compensate those who contribute, rather than argue about a product that absolutely does have a user base (as is continually proven). I don’t think there’s a win against the demand, but you can win the ethics battle and force better regulations.
GenAI advocates would rather get rid of IP altogether, though. They claim they’re all running ethical models already and it’s perfect, but they also want artists’ right to opt-out to not exist. Nevermind compensation, or the need for opt-in, we can’t even agree on the importance of consent.
And robocallers/spam callers would rather get rid of bans on automated call systems and enforcement of Do Not Call lists. Doesn’t mean we have to do what they want, and it would be an extremely ineffective argument to argue for a ban on phones or even just a ban on automated call systems connected to phones. Both are tools with extremely legitimate use cases that can and have been exploited for malicious and unethical means. Welcome to the complexity of modern living. I see you as an ally, but I warn that we’ll need to be specific in our language and our desires in order to shape the discussion properly, else you’ll just end up categorized with the “nutjobs wanting to ban phones” (embellished simile I’m using to give you an example in a different context) and you’re going to lose a lot of momentum from the legitimately ethical people who are on your side.
I don’t think there’s really a “demand” per se. It seems to me like the vast vast majority of AI “art” and text is spam. Many of these users seem to be using cheap/free versions of whatever LLM or image generators.
OpenAI is by far the most popular, but also said that even on the most expensive $200/month plan, they are losing money.
Is this “demand” going to exist if and when they inevitably raise the price?
If and when Facebook makes changes to how they monetize posts, will the shrimp Jesus spammers move on to the next scheme?
Will the businesses using AI for customer service and data entry keep using it if it costs more than using human employees?
This whole “industry” is teetering on a knifes edge.
That viewpoint is extremely short sighted. You’re missing the field for the trees. Open source models that people run on their local hardware with open weights absolutely do exist and function well. As an example of demand, I personally have a DnD group that uses it for token generation. It gives a far deeper sense of immersion for our custom campaigns where we would otherwise not be able to afford to commission custom imagery, and yes these are generated locally on an m1 mac mini. People viewing it as a replacement for custom commissioned art are, at least with its current and foreseeable capabilities, incorrect in their assumption. It’s merely an augmentation and tool that fills niche low-cost low-“risk” voids. I assure you, for example, that there is absolutely some kid out there who has generated an image of either their imaginary friend or custom super hero. This has likely brought them great joy, especially if they’re unable to otherwise embody their idea due to lack of skill or funding. You have to look at the tool from all angles. A car, in isolation, is a multi-ton inheritia machine capable of unspeakable atrocities, yet we cohabitate with them every single day because we understand life is complex, there are benefits to doing so, and a single view of a tool does not reflect it’s reality.
I don’t think “some kid” experiencing “great joy” at AI slop is worth the spam from scammers and environmental impacts.
Also, the majority of people using AI are not running it locally. If people were running it locally, on low power to preserve the environment, with content that artists consented to have trained, to use exclusively for non-commercial use, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
But that isn’t reality.
Cars are dangerous, yet we live in a society that…
Cars are dangerous, that’s why they can only be used by licensed operators (both for safety and environmental impact), are heavily regulated, and still have problems coming from overreliance that would have been easier to solve before we built infrastructure around them.
It’s why we’ve seen things like walkable cities and public transit come back as popular ideas.
I think you’re aiming for perfect over better, and honestly I don’t think you’re going to make much headway in that effort, especially when you’re disregarding the joy of children but you do you.
Local models already won.
I agree with the points about ethics and compensation, however.
So a couple of things. One, he’s right and I agree with him on his first point. There is no such thing as a “ai artist” or a prompt director or whatever you’d like to call it. The machine is not complex enough in use to need a specialized person like that, and I wouldn’t say they were an artist even if it were. Second, I literally follow artists who use ai just for finishing details on their work, sometimes it’s as simple as fur renders that they don’t want to add by hand so they involve an ai renderer to apply the finishing layer, and these are artists I’ve been following since before ai “art” (image generation) existed. So he’s just straight up wrong about there not being a single real artist using ai. It’s a tool, like any other. You can have your negative opinion on it, but it’s honestly useless to be so hostile to something just because it scares you and you don’t understand it, so I’m not going to watch the video past that.
If current models never changed again - none of what’s happening would “die.” We already have programs that can turn any image you provide into any image you describe, even if you provide solid noise.
What people do with that tool can be trivial… or it can take immense effort and thought. I don’t understand how an iterative process lasting days could be anything but art. Objecting to where the tools came from can’t change that.
If what you need is a constant stream of ever-changing imagery that you don’t glance at for more than a second or two before moving on, I’m sure AI is great for that. So are jangling keys and those slime ASMR videos. But if that’s what you want from viewing or making art, you are an alien to me.
I use it for illustrations of characters, items, and locations for my homebrew TTRPG campaign. That’s basically exactly what happens: party looks at it once, gets a general idea, and usually never looks at it again. Without AI, I just wouldn’t have the illustrations; I’m not commissioning art that’s going to get looked at once.
I wouldn’t call that “art”, in any real sense. They’re visual aids, not aesthetic masterpieces.
I can’t speak for your party, but if I were in your campaign, I would vastly prefer silly doodles over some disposable AI image.
My party very much enjoys the visual aids I provide. They are one part of a toolbox of resources that contribute to the immersive quality of my campaign.
See also Spiderweb Software’s “Failing To Fail” talk: solo dev used the same assets in every game, and a constant complaint in the forums was that the graphics sucked. So once his sales were decent, he hired an artist to overhaul everything. The next game had the same complaints. He celebrated. Now he knew he could ignore that shit.
Without AI, I just wouldn’t have the illustrations
Well, this situation has existed for a long time. You can buy extant asset packs, no commission necessary. They’re not too expensive, either. As you noted they are just visual aids. Actually I happen to have a supermassive amount laying around from random humble bundles over the years, that were pack-ins with other items I wanted
No judgement or anything, it’s just far from an “AI or nothing” situation
I’m very particular, and my setting is not thematically typical. AI gives me the power to have a decent degree of control over the content when it’s difficult, if not impossible, to find media that’s appropriate for a particular character or scene.
It sounds more like AI has disempowered you to exercise your creativity tbh
I draw when I want to draw, paint when I want to paint, narrate when I want to narrate. I design, print, and paint minis and settings, I make props and maps and documents. When it comes to semi-important limited-use side characters, sometimes 5 minutes describing them to an AI is sufficient effort for the demands of the task.
Yeah so to be clear, listing a bunch of pursuits where creativity may thrive doesn’t really illustrate your passion for the craft. It actually makes your interest in art sound passing and sterile. My point is not that you have been banned from picking up a paintbrush, but that your creative process has been damaged.
And look, what we actually already have from you is an example of that damaged creativity and resourcefulness; you are proclaiming that a problem that has been solved for decades is “impossible” without AI. You’re also flitting back and forth seamlessly between these images being “glanced at for one second, less than art” and “semi important, needing to serve a particular taste” depending on whatever you think serves your point more in the moment. It doesn’t sound like you had any thought or justification behind it before today. Just something you were doing because it’s easy and you felt the need to come defend it today when you saw the concept taking some heat.
Which is all fine. You’d be better off just owning it rather than trying to construct some goldilocks zone of importance where it’s justified
Uh, wow, don’t really know where to start there.
My craft is not painting. My craft is designing characters, locations, scenes, interactions, storylines, events, etc. The visual aids I use are accessories to the craft, not the craft itself. My craft is not damaged because I outsource a minute portion of it. Is the creative process “damaged” because a baker doesn’t make chocolate chips from scratch for their cookies?
There is no flitting back and forth, there is no contradiction in making a particular visual aid to assist in efficiently conveying information, and that depiction only being necessary for a few moments.
You can also get deep, deep into whateverthefuck you’re into. Is your waifu no longer popular? Well, now anyone can be served a few pieces per day, without demanding a constant deluge of novelty. Is your favorite thing so niche it doesn’t have a tag? Well, endless similar examples are dead easy, and endless distinct examples are not much harder.
Oh yeah, I forgot everyone is born with inmate talent, time and privilege.
wrong, you’re just too much of a coward to make shitty art and say it’s yours. it’s a hurdle that all of us had to get over
I know what I want to draw, but there’s something missing between that idea and the paper. I can imagine what I want it to look like, in a way, but only as a vague reification of a concept, not as something made of lines and colors, and it’s useless for trying to get it down on paper. I inevitably end up with something so far from my original idea that it’s massively discouraging.
I expect that I’d develop a better eye for this sort of thing if I was to practice it for years, but it’s very difficult to feel motivated to do that when you can’t produce anything remotely like what you were going for.
There are a million free courses to guide your learning and teach you about things like forms and perspective to capture what you want. Unless you have 0 free time whatsoever, anyone, and I do mean anyone, can make art.
If you have people that talk like this around you as an artist I think you need to find different people to be around that is the real take away here.
Also, I have genuinely never in my 29 years of life heard people say anything like this. So this post can kind of fuck off.
“Never happened to me, must not be real.”
Also, I have genuinely never in my 29 years of life heard people say anything like this.
Look at the comment they are replying to.
“innate talent” is a pervasive idea that undercuts years of work and practice. art is HARD and most people just don’t find the doing part to be fulfilling.
everyone wants to make a masterpiece, but no one is born with some kinda artist-gene that gives them the ability to do so as if by magic. outside of savants at least, but that’s a whole other thing lmao
Yes, talent is oversold and used as an excuse to often HOWEVER there ARE differences in people’s skill level and rate of learning. Especially if learning disabilities are involved.
I really really wanna draw regularly. And i practice regularly have for years. Ive gotten much better than couple years ago me but overall my art still sucks (others confirm not just the usual artist hates own work) and it’s mainly because i have a learning disability that affects my spacial reasoning and ability to visualize shapes.
This may come as a surprise to some people but that makes drawing very difficult, i can’t get proportions correct and I struggle to find shapes. My best drawings are ones that i practically traced the initial outline to get the shapes. AI generated art absolutely makes getting an idea out of my head more accessible. And i can then trace the outline of the ai art and draw the rest myself.
I know people hate it but just blindly saying “anyone can draw just do it bro” is basically just as worthless of an argument that ignores reality
I’m an artist with aphantasia. You just might need to learn from someone that thinks like you do, or try different styles of art. There are so many disabled artists making cool stuff, and a learning disability is a barrier, but it can be overcome. I cannot see images in my head whatsoever. No mental picture, no visual memory. I make art just fine, it just took me a little longer to learn what works for me. The important part is that I had a desire to learn and overcome my difficulties, and didn’t let them stop me from trying. Tracing AI art will not teach you the theory or techniques you could learn from another artist, and those are what you need to improve.
this too, it’s a lot like singing in that way. anyone can train their vocal control, but some folks just will have a much harder time with it for all sorts of reasons they can’t control. both sides of that “only some people can do it/anyone can do it” coin can be damaging for their own reasons.
i think it’s really important to talk about these things in a frank way, thank you for contributing to the discussion ^^
To be blunt, I think the powers behind project 2025 do believe the common man has inmate talent #modernamericanslavery
… but I suspect you meant “innate” talent
I forgot every artist had all of those things in spades
You could run it on your own PC instead
You could also draw in the sand with a stick or piss in the snow. I’m pretty sure the point is it doesn’t take advanced technology to make art.
When you figure a way out to make digital art with out any advanced tech I would be very impressed. Pretty sure you need a computer to make digital art and computers are pretty damn advanced tech.
Nothing about the original post said anything about digital art, they just referred to art in general.
Yeah it didn’t take computers or anything to make art. More about the artists than the method right?
Then instead of a subscription, you’re paying for a gpu and power. Not everyone has the money for a computer, but pretty much anyone can afford a pencil and paper.
Conversely, Cocteau wrote “Film will only become an art when its materials are as inexpensive as pencil and paper.” Cameras: pretty cheap. Things to point them at: haven’t changed much.
If you’re using this tech to replace pencil and paper, it’s a hard sell. If you’re using it to replace Hollywood, it’s a steal.
