I thought to just make a public post about this. I’ve seen many people get married with the vows “Death Do Us Part”
This is a good vow don’t get me wrong but I’d encourage finding an alternative that doesn’t include death unless you truly mean it. What this entails if you mean it,
If someone cheats. The other partner has the right to kill them, if one tries leaving without mutual agreement. The other one can kill them. It’s not about anything unhealthy but two people collectively agreeing to a statement.
If you don’t want that then something like Till Time Do Us Part.
This way there is no death involved and your relationship isn’t built on a false and shallow promise.
Like any weddings I go to. I will call out, if they ever ask if anyone opposes. Then I’ll explain this.
Like any weddings I go to. I will call out, if they ever ask if anyone opposes. Then I’ll explain this.
Totally normal behavior.
Also in my culture. One of them if you would break a vow it could lead to heavy punishment or death. The other you say what you mean and nothing more and breaking vows. Are deeply harmful.
It’s important people don’t build their marriage off a shallow vow. I mean I wouldn’t want to my marriage to built off something I don’t mean.
Why have you assumed that it’s your responsibility to make this determination about someone else’s relationship?
Fucking weird, man.
Hmmm it’s weird. I didn’t realize. I think it’s more not my responsibility but more it annoys me how shallow meaning can become or dimmed down.
I just uninvited you to my hypothetical wedding
Hypothetically, may I bring them as a plus 1?
I don’t like the concept of marriage so I may be poorly informed on this but my understanding is that “Until death do us part” means that you’re both agreeing to cherish and respect each other til you die. Not that you’ll kill the other one of they break that vow.
It’s odd to assume it wouldn’t have originally been that. Like I believe it is currently but in that case it’s because they find an alternative meaning to it. Since in my mind it’s like yes so you will part when someone dies or Till Death do us part. So in return if it’s that then I’d assume it has killing part of it if you both don’t mutually agree yk.
There’s no “or else” in the statement. If you break the vow you broke the vow. Consequences of breaking a vow aren’t necessarily death even in more barbaric times. Certainly not today unless you live in some backwards country that allows “honor” killing. Most people don’t expect their relationship to fail when they get married but shit happens, people change, sometimes they’re lying to their partner about who they are. It’s not always something you can work through and stay together. Saying people deserve death for that is incredibly fucked up. Imagine someone in an abusive marriage having to deal with that.
That is why I encourage to use other vows. So for example you don’t say a false statement. Like Time do us part. Though of what I’ve found and inherited there is a few cultures that truly mean it. If you break it. You bring dishonour upon yourself, your ancestors, kids and family in general. So while one of my inherited cultures while meaning it. If you broke the vow as I said would bring the dishonour mentioned above. It’d also basically deface you. You’d be less trusted or other. Though in my more other heritage. If you broke this vow. There would be heavy consequences or even death. As vows were placed on a spiritual level. Said in front of alters of gods/goddess.
This is why I also encourage people to find another saying. While most times. Even if this is said a person is abusive they can already get out. As most times if they can document substantial proof. Anyone would help them get out.
I’m like 70% this is just bait, but I’ve got some time to break it down so I’ll bite. For reference, the traditional vow is usually something along the lines of
I, [my name], take you, [partner’s name], for my lawful wife/husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and health, until death do us part.
From OP:
What this entails if you mean it,
If someone cheats. The other partner has the right to kill them, if one tries leaving without mutual agreement. The other one can kill them. It’s not about anything unhealthy but two people collectively agreeing to a statement.
That’s quite the leap from promising to take someone as your lawfully wedded partner until death to having the right to kill them if they do something you don’t like. In fact, the vow does explicitly say that you have to take them for better or for worse, which would include just about any sleight against you, including cheating. So not only do you not gain the right to kill them, you yourself would break the vow if you stopped having/accepting them when they cheated.
If you don’t want that then something like Till Time Do Us Part.
This way there is no death involved and your relationship isn’t built on a false and shallow promise.
Is there actually a reasonable interpretation where promising to do something until death is less shallow than promising to do something until time progresses? Promising to do something for a period of time without specifying the period means that doing it for 1 second is enough. Unless you’re going to die in the second after you get married, “until death” is a lot more meaningful.
If you’re unwilling to make a vow with any heft to it, don’t get married. Marriage is no longer required in a good portion of the world thanks to common law “marriages” now. In other places, marriage is just a legal contract which can be broken by another proceeding called “divorce”, not “murder”. In most of the world, it’s agreed upon that nobody has the right to murder someone else in any circumstance except for war (and plenty of people would prefer that single exception be removed too).
Edit: I clicked post too early
It’s confusing why it’s such a big leap. Also it’s odd to assume you’d break the vow after not accepting them cheating. From my cultural POV when you cheat. You’d forfeit the vow. Which would bring dishonour upon your family and that includes a direct disrespect of the other family. Leading to you saying. Hey I cheated, or tried leaving (Not leaving because of abuse) since I believe if someone was abusing you. They’d also break the vow since the vow is to protect, love and care until death.
Also I am sorry it came off as a bait.
For Time do us part. While it may seem lesser. It’s acknowledging the flow of time and how someone can change throughout life. Though in reality there could be a better option but it’s more making it apparent the importance of meaningful statements.
It’s confusing why it’s such a big leap.
Because saying “I’ll do [thing] until I die” is not the same as “If I stop doing [thing] you can kill me”.
Also it’s odd to assume you’d break the vow after not accepting them cheating. From my cultural POV when you cheat. You’d forfeit the vow.
If the vow is broken by cheating, then the part of the vow about being lawfully wedded until death is also broken. So then you’d also lose your right to murder them to get out of the vow, since you’re already out of the vow. If you’d like a fun take on divorce as murder, see The Orville’s Moclans.
Which would bring dishonour upon your family and that includes a direct disrespect of the other family.
Is your culture Klingon? Because honour is not a real thing, it’s just an excuse to shame people for doing things some don’t like. If you’ve got a good reason why it has to be this way, I’d love to hear it. As it stands, that’s just intolerance by peer pressure, which are both bad things to do. I’d encourage you to spend a bit of time doing some critical thinking about your culture, since I saw some of your other replies saying that some of your beliefs come from your culture. I come from a culture that still likes marriage a lot (Canada + Catholic), but that same culture is also responsible for (triggers incoming) genocide, child abuse, cultural cleansing, and rampant pollution.
Hey I cheated, or tried leaving (Not leaving because of abuse) since I believe if someone was abusing you. They’d also break the vow since the vow is to protect, love and care until death.
I’m not going to defend cheating too much, but the vow has no statement about monogamy (though that is usually and reasonably assumed to be the case) so the pedant in me would like to point out that cheating is not breaking the vow. Even with the reasonable assumption that cheating is breaking the vow, the vow does not set consequences for breaking it. Technically, divorce does not even break the vow. It is also possible to protect, love, and care until death while ending the marriage. Even after a divorce, your partner was still your lawfully wedded partner. (I don’t really agree with this paragraph, but it’s a totally valid opinion with some strong arguments so I wanted to mention it)
For Time do us part. While it may seem lesser. It’s acknowledging the flow of time and how someone can change throughout life. Though in reality there could be a better option but it’s more making it apparent the importance of meaningful statements.
I’d like to believe that the vow is acknowledgement that they intend to fulfill it until death. From that basic tenet and knowing that humans aren’t perfect [citation needed], it’s easy to come to the premise that somebody might grow to realize they can’t fulfill that vow, and so they want to get a divorce. It’s actually probably the most protective, loving, and caring thing a partner could do – realize they aren’t good with their partner and so leave. The fact that they broke the vow does not invalidate their intent to fulfill it when they started the marriage. This is basically the idea behind no-fault divorce, btw.
If you want to acknowledge time by changing the vow from “death” to “time”, you’re definitely allowed to for your own wedding. But don’t presume that people don’t understand the meaning of what they’re saying because they made a vow that they ultimately didn’t keep.
Here’s a parting thought: Would a good partner ever murder their spouse? Is human life truly valued lower than this made up concept called “honour”?
Interesting to hear that first part honestly. Now the second part the reason why killing is ok within this case is because you have to regain your dignity and honour. A marriage is a binding of two souls and persons into one partnership. When one disgraces that partnership some are unforgivable aka cheating. Sometimes those who decide will forgive and give another chance but in this case most in my culture specifically the warrior side. Would never give a second chance. As for my culture no not Klingon but born into an ancient lineage of Norse and Frost Giant. With a secondary lineage by Pupil-ship. Ancient China. Now as for cheating. Of course it’s important to discuss the agreement before marriage. Like my Poly many times I can sleep with many people but for them to become part of my relationship everyone has to agree. For us at our official wedding. We will preform a ritual called the eternal bite of love. A bite to someone’s neck that creates a deep scar that will form a lasting mark.
Yes No Fault divorce at least for now is a thing until the upcoming president removes all them. Though I think it’s just most important to discuss how one see vows. So another doesn’t become misled. In the culture I’ve shared with kids, other partners. We all agree on at least one thing this Vow is life or death and cheating is equal to signing your death warrant.
If someone cheats. The other partner has the right to kill them
Where did you get that idea? “Until death do us part” just means until we are separated by death. Until either one of us dies, and not before. It’s not a threat or a consequence, it’s a time limit. It’s supposed to mean you’ll love your partner until you die.
A mix of my own and partners love styles and cultural influences. I mean like if you are saying we will stay together and loyal till death. I’d assume by logic that means if someone breaks that vow then it can mean death? Since you are vowing to honour and care for that person until death and when you stop doing it. Then it’s like you’ve died or sealed your death.
I’ve been to a half dozen weddings over the past decade or so and not one of them did the “speak now or forever hold your peace” thing from the movies.
Hahahaa yeah I’ve heard of stories it’s happened but not heard it myself. As I’ve only been to a few weddings
Thank you, DaddysLittleSlut, for your advice on marriage.
Prenuptials are a better approach.
oaths and vows are so 20th century
