He really isn’t anti-capitalist, he’s against concentrations of wealth generally, but he’s absolutely in favor of our capitalist system, he just thinks there should be more rules so workers fare better. He’s not a socialist, much as the right wants to think, he’s just in favor of a large welfare system and high taxes on the wealthy. He doesn’t want to fundamentally change our economic system, he just wants to make it more fair for his definition of “fair.”
I agree he is not a socialist in the 20th century sense, but he clearly says that workers should have ownership stake in companies, which is not a capitalist sentiment. He advocates for employee ownership of companies. I also am aware of who his economic advisors on these issues are and they are very much anti-capitalist
he clearly says that workers should have ownership stake in companies, which is not a capitalist sentiment
It absolutely is though. Partnerships have been a thing since pretty much forever, and a lot of publicly traded companies and some private companies hand out company stock as part of compensation. Employees owning stock isn’t socialism, it’s capitalism, and the goal is for employees’ interests to be more aligned with the company’s so overall profitability is higher.
Sanders is approaching it from an employee outcomes perspective, but it’s still very much from a capitalist mindset.
He’s not advocating for companies to be run democratically like they would under socialism, he’s advocating for more profit sharing without meaningfully changing ownership.
I agree that giving alienable voting shares to workers isn’t anti-capitalist. It becomes anti-capitalist when the voting rights over management and corporate governance are inalienable meaning they are legally recognized as non-transferable even with consent.
Here is a talk by people involved with Bernie Sanders politically about how all companies should be democratically controlled by the workers: https://youtu.be/E8mq9va5/_ZE
Sure, and many capitalists support socialist ownership structures within an otherwise capitalist system.
I’m pretty supportive of laissez faire capitalism (with caveats; I consider myself a left-leaning libertarian), and I also agree that worker co-ops are a great idea in many cases. The important thing, to me, with capitalism is that profit motive drive the decision making process in a competitive market. Sanders seems to largely agree, he just wants more of that profit to make its way to the workers.
Socialism (generally speaking, I know socialism is a big tent), seeks to eliminate both the profit motive and competitive markets, seeing both as waste. From what I know of Bernie Sanders, he’s not on board with that view of socialism, he just wants the average person to be better off.
Democratic worker co-ops are postcapitalist, but are also non-socialist because they are perfectly compatible with markets and private property. I’m suggesting that Sanders is authentically anti-capitalist, but he conflates his anti-capitalism with being socialist in a category error and thus buys into a false dichotomy.
All firms must be legally mandated to be worker coops on classical liberal inalienable rights theory grounds
Worker co-ops are socialist, because the workers literally own the means of production. In fact, I argue they’re about as pure as you can get with socialism, since there’s no government getting in the way so it could theoretically exist in a stateless society.
Being compatible with capitalism does not preclude something from being socialist.
Worker co-ops don’t necessarily involve the workers owning the means of production as worker cooperatives can lease means of production from third parties. Who owns the means of production doesn’t determine which legal party is the firm. The firm is a contractual role determined by the direction of the hiring contracts.
A market economy where all firms are legally mandated to be worker co-ops is not capitalism
Bernie Sanders is a proper anti-capitalist not just social democratic capitalist. See: https://berniesanders.com/issues/corporate-accountability-and-democracy/
@noncredibledefense
He really isn’t anti-capitalist, he’s against concentrations of wealth generally, but he’s absolutely in favor of our capitalist system, he just thinks there should be more rules so workers fare better. He’s not a socialist, much as the right wants to think, he’s just in favor of a large welfare system and high taxes on the wealthy. He doesn’t want to fundamentally change our economic system, he just wants to make it more fair for his definition of “fair.”
I agree he is not a socialist in the 20th century sense, but he clearly says that workers should have ownership stake in companies, which is not a capitalist sentiment. He advocates for employee ownership of companies. I also am aware of who his economic advisors on these issues are and they are very much anti-capitalist
@noncredibledefense
It absolutely is though. Partnerships have been a thing since pretty much forever, and a lot of publicly traded companies and some private companies hand out company stock as part of compensation. Employees owning stock isn’t socialism, it’s capitalism, and the goal is for employees’ interests to be more aligned with the company’s so overall profitability is higher.
Sanders is approaching it from an employee outcomes perspective, but it’s still very much from a capitalist mindset.
He’s not advocating for companies to be run democratically like they would under socialism, he’s advocating for more profit sharing without meaningfully changing ownership.
I agree that giving alienable voting shares to workers isn’t anti-capitalist. It becomes anti-capitalist when the voting rights over management and corporate governance are inalienable meaning they are legally recognized as non-transferable even with consent.
Here is a talk by people involved with Bernie Sanders politically about how all companies should be democratically controlled by the workers: https://youtu.be/E8mq9va5/_ZE
Sanders supports worker co-op conversions
@noncredibledefense
Sure, and many capitalists support socialist ownership structures within an otherwise capitalist system.
I’m pretty supportive of laissez faire capitalism (with caveats; I consider myself a left-leaning libertarian), and I also agree that worker co-ops are a great idea in many cases. The important thing, to me, with capitalism is that profit motive drive the decision making process in a competitive market. Sanders seems to largely agree, he just wants more of that profit to make its way to the workers.
Socialism (generally speaking, I know socialism is a big tent), seeks to eliminate both the profit motive and competitive markets, seeing both as waste. From what I know of Bernie Sanders, he’s not on board with that view of socialism, he just wants the average person to be better off.
Remember: anti-capitalism ≠ socialism
Democratic worker co-ops are postcapitalist, but are also non-socialist because they are perfectly compatible with markets and private property. I’m suggesting that Sanders is authentically anti-capitalist, but he conflates his anti-capitalism with being socialist in a category error and thus buys into a false dichotomy.
All firms must be legally mandated to be worker coops on classical liberal inalienable rights theory grounds
@noncredibledefense
Worker co-ops are socialist, because the workers literally own the means of production. In fact, I argue they’re about as pure as you can get with socialism, since there’s no government getting in the way so it could theoretically exist in a stateless society.
Being compatible with capitalism does not preclude something from being socialist.
Worker co-ops don’t necessarily involve the workers owning the means of production as worker cooperatives can lease means of production from third parties. Who owns the means of production doesn’t determine which legal party is the firm. The firm is a contractual role determined by the direction of the hiring contracts.
A market economy where all firms are legally mandated to be worker co-ops is not capitalism
@noncredibledefense