There was a golden age when computers were something you owned, not like before when they were big machines your employer or university would give out access to, nor like after when they went to the cloud, you bought what was essentially a thin client and every software became a service.
At least in the olden days the computers weren’t forced into every single damn part of society!
Now in order to talk with most of your friends and family, you have to sell your soul to every one of the thousand ToS’s. It’s impossible to meaningfully use your personal device you bought with your own money without the internet, as every app and their mom needs to call home for some reason. For some reason, it is morally acceptable for a company to prevent you from being able to have someone you pay to replace parts of your device with third-party components you bought with your own money!
Now, of course, you can simply install some Libre operating system and use Lemmy, or Mastodon or whatever. But computers are so embedded into society that it is simply impossible to go without these services unless you want to get yourself isolated (and potentially in trouble with the authorities).
Besides, from prior experience, most people are unwilling to use technologies unless it is physically placed in front of them, whether through social influences, advertising or word of mouth, which generally corporate services do better than Libre alternatives.
It used to be that computers and programs were made for the end user. Now they are simply tools for ad and data-collection companies to extract every byte of personal data and force every second of advertising on others.
I’ve been seriously considering to remove computers from most aspects of my life, but as paper slowly disappears from our lives, this becomes harder and harder. Now you would likely be fired if you refused to use Teams or Slack or whatever your company uses. No one uses fax or writes mail or watches live TV anymore.
The only other alternative is to take back computers and make them personal again.
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I hear what you are saying, but I’m not sure why you aren’t doing what you want to do.
If you have a computer not provided by work, why do you have Slack or Teams?
Use ad blockers and/or Pi-Hole to avoid pesky ads.
Watch live TV.
Write a letter.
Stay away or use sparingly, data hungry services.
I know I feel better for it and I don’t feel as if I’m missing much.
I’m mostly concerned about the general public as many are either ignorant or lack the knowledge on how to use these.
Ads have become the new normal
Ads have become the new normal
I haven’t seen an ad in ages on the internet. Also, ducks in the park are free.
They are slowly creeping back in. Once ad blockers became mainstream (I blame Apple), the war on them began in earnest. I already see them reappearing on YouTube and Reddit.
You can scoff and declare that no one should use these platforms, but both have captured whole swaths of discourse and content online. And they will just keep chipping away at making sure the ads appear. Cat/mouse, all that.
sometimes the ‘content’ itself is an ad nowadays
brb, pirating ducks.
The general public is ignorant and has the lack of interest in their privacy or in general in the internet. They just want to know whats the weather or funny cat videos.
The companies make their software so bloated because they want to sell you the “ad free”/deluxe experience for extra money.
They dont have the morales of you buy it you own it. See the gaming industry, the movie industry even the car industry all subscriptions, ads, data hoarding and telemetry all of what it is not necessary for any industry, if they did a good job and a good product. But as they just make a “warranty” hopping hardware/software, that just gets you over the warranty/refund period and then spontaneous dies because of some electronic that was especially not there just to destroy the product after x years. See “The Crew” from ubisoft, users “bought” the game after few years a sequel came out and ubisoft just did most terrible thing you could do and just unplugged “The Crew” and made it unplayable, and even had the audacity to remove evidence by removing them from players playstation libraries and no refund possible.
They deliberately made that game a online only game (even this could and should have run perfectly offline) and then kill it after few years to force users to play newer games. Imagine this in the N64 era, the publishers would have gotten sued and defamed for this crap they would have done.
Then they ask themselves why is piracy back and even stronger than before, they just need to open their eyes and do their job.
In short: Dont be afraid to live in a futuristic dystopia, we are living in one already.
Watch live TV.
In my country (Australia) live TV is ad-infested and most programs are reality TV garbage, so I stay away from it. I use a combination of Freetube + Peertube and it works for me.
Eh, I think it’s totally feasible to quarantine the problematic parts of tech and retain control. For example:
- GrapheneOS - I have a profile for my personal stuff w/o any Google services running, and then I have a “work” profile for things like Slack
- Linux - no software company or hardware company is going to restrict me from maintaining my own machine; I’ve replaced parts, uninstalled default software, etc; I currently use a Lenovo laptop and a DIY desktop, and I’ll probably replace my laptop w/ a Framework
“impossible to go without these services”
Have you tried? I stopped using Facebook over a decade ago, and I refuse to use anything else Meta has touched. I still keep in contact with those I care about. It turns out that if people value a relationship with you, they’ll work with what you’re comfortable with, provided you’re willing to compromise a bit too. For me, that means SMS and email is my main form of communication, though I’d prefer more private alternatives like Matrix and Signal. Maybe I’ll push my loved ones to switch eventually, idk.
No one uses fax
Nor should they, it’s absolutely insecure and shouldn’t be used by anyone. Period.
Mail is great, many of my friends have old-school watches, and while I don’t understand it, I have friends who watch live TV. None of that really interests me (though I’ll watch the Olympics OTA sometimes).
take back computers
What’s stopping you? Do it one step at a time, and make adjustments as you go. I switched to Linux full-time something like 15 years ago, and it’s all I use today. Since then, I have:
- switched from gmail to my own domain (hosted w/ Tuta)
- ripped all our DVDs and Blurays to a local Jellyfin server and cancelled most of our streaming services (SO convinced me to keep Netflix)
- switched to GrapheneOS after a few years of slowly cutting out Google crap
- self-host all kinds of stuff (I’m really close to eliminating Google Drive)
- eliminated all commercial social media, and only Lemmy is left
Do the easiest stuff first, and keep going until you feel like you’re in control. Your direction will probably look different than mine, and that’s great! But waiting for someone else to solve your problems is what got us into this mess, so do something, and ideally do it today.
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I’ve been surprised by how effective it’s been to say, respectfully, “this is important to me,” maybe adding “here’s why.” Got all my siblings, mom, SO, and best friend on Signal, that’s a vast majority of my online conversations.
reddit is orders of magnitude bigger then lemmy, but I find lemmy high quality and has more people with similar values- more than i could ever keep up with.
Back when Adobe went subscription-only, I stopped using it on my personal work and devices even though a lot of my previous work depended on it. Had to switch to different tools, but now there are better options. Not only has Adobe stagnated, but they caused an even bigger exodus when they messed with the ToS to train ai on user data.
I switch to linux a few years ago and now when I have jobs that use windows I realize how clunky it actually is, and it’s only getting worse while linux has been getting better.
I’m fully degoogled (also a graphineOS user). It took me years to eliminate each service, but I was sick of these giant companies that could never give me the things I wanted because in interferes with what they want (ad revenue). The only thing you can do is take it all back. Participate as little as possible. These companies will not stop getting worse while people continue to use them.
It can be inconvenient, time-consuming, and hard, but there are options, and it is a lot easier now than it was a decade ago. I see no reason why it wont continue to get easier and more accessible. That’s why it’s important for tech savvy folks to do what they can, now, and make it easier for those who come after them. Personally, I’ve done a lot for myself, but need to learn more about hosting securely so I can offer close friends and family better alternatives that they can easily access.
The internet, in particular social networking, needs to become personal.
I fleshed out an idea for building a personal social infrastructure system that will hopefully accomplish just that, but haven’t put “code to disk” yet.
As time passes it’s becoming more clear that this is ultimately the right way forward, but it’s a big project.
Check out freetheinter.net and send me some feedback :)
Waitwaitwait what am I looking at here? It seems to be fairly similar to the concept of the Fediverse. Could you explain it?
It’s intended to be much more local and decentralized than the fediverse, under the assumption that over time large fedi instances will exhibit the same issues as large centralized social networks (profit seeking, manipulation, etc)
- Instead of many people connecting to the same server, people only connect to people’s devices that they know
- It uses the resources of users “daily driver” devices for hosting
- It leverages “real life” personal connections and trust to deny access to large centralized entities
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Sounds really cool! So it’s essentially “serverless” in the sense that it runs on users’ devices right?
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servers are for availability and storage durability
I think it sounds cool ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
Be the change you want to see.
Since people won’t (for example) switch to privacy-respecting comm apps just because I ask them too, I’m building my own self-hosted box that I can duplicate for my family and friends.
My goal is to provide them with a single box solution for DNS filtering (PiHole), media server (including auto disc conversion and sharing between boxes), local backup (which will replicate encrypted backups to the other boxes similar to what Crashplan Personal did), phone backup and management (MDM and file management from PC), image and file sharing (something like Facebook for family only), instant messaging (most likely XMPP), etc, etc.
Yes, it’s a pretty bold plan, but my family and friends are tech illiterate, so if I want to see an improvement in privacy for myself and them, it’s on me to do it, and make it attractive for them.
Look into snikket for XMPP.
I don’t know, maybe there’s a healthy medium? My home computing is still very personal.
I will hang out on IRC with friends, while I hack away on my low-tech coding projects in the background.
My smart phone is primarily used for comms and navigation, and I’m not stuck to it out in public.
I refuse a smart home, and the only mindless automation I take part in is dedicated to movies and TV.
Circling back around, I do feel like not all hope is currently lost.
Circling back around, I do feel like not all hope is currently lost.
My own contradiction: I feel pretty cynical about it, and yet I’m working on my own solutions for my family and friends. Part of me thinks it’s pointless, but I refuse to give in completely.
I already try to use better comms, minimize the data my phone shares (setting up a de-googled pixel now), and have always avoided most social media (never been on FB/Twitter, etc, as in never even gone to the websites).
Now, of course, you can simply install some Libre operating system and use Lemmy, or Mastodon or whatever. But computers are so embedded into society that it is simply impossible to go without these services unless you want to get yourself isolated (and potentially in trouble with the authorities).
Just install Linux and see for yourself that it’s not that hard and definitely won’t get you in trouble.
Of course, you’ll see all the same shit, but it won’t be as pervasive.
Besides, from prior experience, most people are unwilling to use technologies unless it is physically placed in front of them, whether through social influences, advertising or word of mouth, which generally corporate services do better than Libre alternatives.
Yes, that’s true. Which is why I’m sort of a luddite - I want simpler devices with more limited (and likely not universal) functionality, so that they’d just work when they should and not work when they shouldn’t. That is what should be given to ignorant people. Not something complex and spyware-ridden.
Sort of like … pagers, from the recent association with that terrorist act committed by Israel.
I think there’s a very big niche for simple electronic devices. Like you’d still often use hammer and nails at home, not an electric device with screwdriver mode, drill mode, hammer mode etc.
A separate device for texting and voice\video calls, with simple firmware to which support of different protocols can be added (distributed, say, just as plugins). A separate device for listening to music. A separate device to take photos and videos, I think we had something like this, what was it called I wonder, lol.
It may well be that the combined cost and efficiency for each application of a bunch of such simple devices will be better than with a smartphone. In such a case using them is optimal. It’s also good for economy - instead of a rather powerful machine requiring TSMC-produced stuff they’d need a few MCs that can be produced in many places of our planet, competition and decentralization are good for everyone. It’s also good for security - instead of very complex Android and iOS software stacks you’d have dedicated devices with smaller attack surface. It’s good for your mental health - human brain works better with dedicated physical things. It’s even good for fashion, I think even clubbing girls are starting to get tired of big dumb square pieces of glass with fingerprints all over them.
And it’s good for the industry.
but as paper slowly disappears from our lives, this becomes harder and harder. Now you would likely be fired if you refused to use Teams or Slack or whatever your company uses. No one uses fax or writes mail or watches live TV anymore.
I’d use something like a Star Wars datapad with a e-ink display, too.
What you wrote is not an old fart rant. It’s the only sane position on that. Not everything new is progress. Not everything new is better. Not everything more complex is more functional for one’s practical needs.
There are plenty of options for personal computers; you have to make the choice to go private and personal.
I built my own desktop, which remains very common and is relatively easy to do. I have Linux and Windows on it, and use Linux nearly 100% as I agree I don’t like ads etc. I use a Firefox with ad blockers and don’t get ads; I use lots of open source software even to access services like Youtube (Free tube).
There are also even linux laptops, and the Frame.Work laptop which is fully modular and bring your own OS.
There are open source OS for phones.
You’re right about the corporatisation of the internet and services, but it remains up to users to vote with their feet and chose to take back their privacy and person computing.
Linux is at 4% of desktop users in recent months - that is many millions of people actively choosing to exist in a space where they control their personal computers. People don’t need to remove computers, just chose to set them up to be what they want them to be.
What are you blathering about, it’s never been cheaper or easier to have a personal computer than now, however you define it. You can go full paranoid from coreboot up or you can just get a steam deck and dock and have a nice arch in desktop mode. You can meaningfully use it with internet, Firefox with ublock origin, Signal to talk to your family without selling your soul or whatever. Is this written by a chatbot?
You are not wrong but OP also is lamenting that normies won’t do it due to how social order is structured. Not much to do about it besides educating people around you.
You aint convincing boomers that privacy is a right that you have to protect. But younger folks are one shiti event from being believers and we got a lot of shit floating down our way.
Critical mass should hit in like a generation or two!
I dunno, all my younger family and their friends are neck deep in the shit, and aren’t interested in hearing my “conspiracy theories”…despite them being front page news every day (all the ransomware, hacks, etc).
But younger folks are one shiti event from being believers and we got a lot of shit floating down our way.
They stubbornly ignore the technical component and are even irritated for you daring to suppose that there’s anything important in preventing that shit other than their social and political activity.
They refuse to understand that most of said activity on compromised bot-infested platforms (all the mainstream) is bent in the direction power wants.
The threats are not directly visible, they are abstract, theoretical, hard to feel and touch. While you are near, a real person saying to them that something you know better than them is more important than they think, and something they know better than you is less important than they think.
That tends to create resistance.
The worst part is the banks. You have to get lucky to be allowed to use online banking without agreeing to some sucky TOS.
I hope I live to see the death of private banking. It’s insane how much of the fuckery in the world that originates in banking.
A decent percentage of Gen X and early millennials grew up familiar with computers. You kind of had to be, to some extent. Stuff didn’t always work smoothly or easily, so some tinkering and understanding of how things work beneath the surface was required.
We’re moving towards a future where a computer becomes just like an appliance, like a TV. Both the hardware and software will be locked down and set up to work. You just tap and press buttons to get it to do its thing.
Eventually, we may even get to the point where computers are required to be locked down “for our safety”.
If we get that far, then I can imagine those who want to build their own and have full freedom to install and customise it any way they want could be considered the very fringe/fanatical elements of society.
“Hey, you want an illegal unauthorised computer, why on earth would you need that, are you a terrorist or criminal or something?”
I hope things don’t go quite that far. But I don’t think it’s out of the question.
I grew up with computers since the ‘70s. I know this golden age well - and the golden age of the internet before it was monetized, tracked, ad-ified, walled off, etc.
We’re never going to get the old days back.
There’s always some business that’s going to insert itself between what you want and you and try to extract profit from it. Doesn’t matter if it’s tracking you or subscription fees.
I hate being taken advantage of like that, but unfortunately if you want to play with some of their toys you have to pay.
Just do it judiciously and take control where you can.
I build my own PCs. No pre-loaded crap. I download driver-only software when needed, not bloated corporate-ware like what HP or canon does to pester you about ordering ink. I have several Linux boxes doing free things for me like running a 3D printer, running a CUPS print server, running openHABian, a Jellyfin server, and the best of all - Pi-hole (block ads, block devices from phoning home). I run Firefox with all the ad blockers and anti-trackers. Facebook containers and YouTube ad blockers.
But I run windows 10. Why? Because it was free and it works. Take advantage of the system that takes advantage of you. I also run it dual boot with Manjaro, for all those tasks windows might make difficult.
My LAN has a separate network for all IOT and similar devices so they can’t see the rest of my network, and most are blocked from phoning home as needed. They don’t get to sell that data.
I take advantage of all free good software; Gimp, LibreOffice, OBS, VLC, 7zip…
Some things we’ll never get back, like ownership of top-tier games that have to phone home.
Anyway… like I said, there’s no way to wind the clock back. However, with effort, you can control what you can and at least not give them what they’re trying to extract from you. Be in charge of what you let them have. It’s really all we’ve got.
That’s a wrong speech to deliver to a cute girl asking how to make things better.
You’ve started with philosophy and economics and olden days.
If we want to explain today’s tech and possible directions of fixing it to “normal” people, we need to start with what they need to do that they do with smartphones.
That’s what businesses do too - they take something hard and suboptimal, make the road shorter and take their toll. Sometimes stealing part of what you are carrying on that road, or replacing it with their unwanted shit, or just stuffing their unwanted shit into your pockets.
So what we should think about is - what to replace their finger-poking box with, so that it’d be better fit for how they use it.
I’ve written my luddite idea in another comment. Split it into a few dedicated devices, much simpler in their essence. Since smartphones are used today mostly not as universal machines, and this difference can be optimized.
That’s only IMHO.
You’ve reiterated pretty much what I said, but directly contradicted some of the most obvious points.
Not sure what a “cute girl” has to do with anything, I gave a pragmatic explanation. Do you treat cute girls like they can’t handle realistic information?
Your idea is to reduce functionality of popular devices. That’s not going to work. Like I said, if you want to play in these businesses’ little proprietary gardens you’re going to have to play by their rules. If you want to be a Luddite, great, but for the vast majority of people such limited devices will never be adopted and any business producing them will either be niche expensive or fail.
Just keep in mind that installing an app via the respective app stores (just install, not custom settings) is often the limit of what people can, and are willing to do.
People just simply don’t have the time, willpower and/or knowledge to get a controlled LAN working. It’s similar to how you don’t expect everyone being able to fly a helicopter, or build a car from scratch.
I didn’t assume we were speaking of the general public in c/technology, maybe that was a mistake. Most of what I said can be done without too much effort, especially browser extensions. The openHAB and various other tools are only going to apply to those who need them and probably have experience enough to try to tackle them. The only major one that I think people should take advantage of but is beyond most folks ability is Pi-hole. It’s not hard at all, but if you don’t know where to look or what the instructions mean it’ll be impossible for them.
I missed that part xD
Just with the rant thought of the root of this problem, and that is the general populace and how they use it xD
but for the vast majority of people such limited devices will never be adopted and any business producing them will either be niche expensive or fail.
I don’t think that’s true.
We’re never going to get the old days back.
Nothing is stopping you from using a computer as a standalone machine not connected to the internet. Then you have a machine just like the ones in the 1970’s and 1980’s except for having much more memory/processor/diskspace etc. I would say you have a better OS also, except that Linux is basically the same OS as my SCO Xenix 386 I had in the 1980’s.
Counterpoint: before Gmail, I ran my own mail server and futzed with Mutt for a perfect email experience. It was a frustrating time sink.
Gmail came out and I now get a better end-user experience with virtually no cost of ownership. I’m comfortable with the ad-supported model. I’d prefer a low monthly fee, but not so much that it’s worth moving to Proton. Eventually, maybe I will.
I get this take, but it isn’t for me.
Now you would likely be fired if you refused to use Teams or Slack or whatever your company uses.
Why would I refuse? It’s company software running on company hardware. It isn’t my problem what the ToS is.
I personally am migrating accounts and contacts from my gmail address to my own domain set up with Zoho. Pretty cheap for the yearly subscription and I like knowing that my nail is not with an advertising company.
but not so much that it’s worth moving to Proton. Eventually, maybe I will.
FYI, it takes years to do such a move, so there is benefit of starting now and just slowly rolling it over.
It took me about a month maybe.
I’ve been ranting about this a lot lately, but as the owner of mspencer.net (completely useless personal domain, but is 199 days older than wikipedia.org for what it’s worth)…
There is sort of a way to do that, but it’s still labor intensive so not a lot of people do it. Movements to investigate are homelab and selfhosted. Homelab equipment is old (extra power-hungry for the capability you get) or expensive. Self hosting requires a bunch of work to stand things up the way you want it.
Biggest barriers to self hosting - or hosting through your nearest nerdy relative - are the following:
Free ad-supported offerings (with the privacy and terms and conditions impacts you describe) are better and easier, so they out compete DIY options. If a nerdy family member offers to host forums and chat for your community club or whatever, the common response isn’t gratitude, it’s “That’s stupid, I’ll just use Facebook.” Without that need and attention, volunteer projects get way fewer eyeballs and volunteers are way less motivated.
Security is difficult to figure out. Project volunteers have enough on their plate just helping users get their stuff working at all. Helping novice users secure their installations is so much extra work.
Many volunteers feel taken advantage of if they produce something that could help companies make money better, when they don’t share any of the money they make through donations or support arrangements. Similarly, many open source projects get taken over by for-profit companies who diminish efforts to make their open source offerings easier to use for free. (They want companies to buy support contracts, even if it means frustrating use by private individuals without kilobucks to spare.)
but is 199 days older than wikipedia
Oooh, the celebs started showing up on Lemmy!
s/celebs/weebs/
Fixed :-)
Now, of course, you can simply install some Libre operating system and use Lemmy, or Mastodon or whatever. But computers are so embedded into society that it is simply impossible to go without these services unless you want to get yourself isolated (and potentially in trouble with the authorities).
Lol what?
“If you don’t use Mastodon or Lemmy you might get in trouble with the law!”
Sorry, I meant services like online form application or something
Counter-point: why would want to own and maintain something like a computer? I want a simple device that take no thought and can be replaced with zero effort.
Ahh, a game of devil’s advocate. There’s no reason why a Libre product with sane defaults can’t do this either.
I’m not sure it’s devil’s advocate: I work with computers for 40 hours a week. There’s no way that I want to put any effort into a computer in my personal time
There are distros that do just that - exist without bothering you.
there are no distros or combinations of software that come close to what mac/iphone/apple tv provide even WITH effort; let alone without. they have other benefits, but ease of integration is not one of them
IDK, iPhones might be easy when you’re using them in relatively narrow usecases, but ridiculously hard or even impossible to use in certain way. Your bank gets sanctioned and its apps removed from App Store? You need to go to the bank’s office and do a dance with a tambourine. Want adblocking in your browser? There is none, only some DNS solutions. Want an adless Youtube client with extended functionality? Too bad. Not to mention that Apple ecosystem would not even be a point of reference for most, as most would be unable to afford this all.
you’re completely right, but only bank sanctions are relevant to the majority of people, and really are bank sanctions relevant to most people???
however, that wasn’t the point you were making in your original comment
My point was that if you want something slightly outside of what Apple wants - something as basic as a Youtube app - it becomes “a ton of effort and potentially impossible”. A custom Android OS would indeed face more trouble than a stock Android/iOS (like with bank apps, again), but I was thinking more about desktop Linux, which would just exist without arbitrarily bothering you.
Also bank sanctions are rare but are applied to a ton of people simultaneously, which is also the case when an average person can find themselves at odds with their own phone.
30 years using Linux - most of that time as a Linux sysadmin. and this is unfortunately true. I got on the Apple ecosystem 20 years ago because I wanted to removed the sysadmin work from my non-work time and it does that quite well. I find most commercial technology to be a faustian bargain with my free time vs. my ethics.
Gotta find it, install it, update it occasionally etc. cloud services don’t need that.
Are we maintaining computers?
I haven’t had to do anything beyond installing the OS after a hardware update or installing software for over a decade. Yeah, I’m lazy and using Windows, but my last hardware was used for about 7 years without needing any troubleshootijg and I upgraded a few years ago to keep up with modern games.
I guess I clean the filter sometimes.
Agreed, we’re living in the a computer/phone is an appliance age. This is also why there is a movement that doesn’t like electric vehicles. They’re just too accessible and they don’t like that. Same mentality here. The only main difference is of course there is librehardware out there AND software. Just about the entirety of Linux ecosystem is this. If one wants to tinker and make them personal all one has to do is build a home lab. Plenty of maintenance on one of those and it’s probably not affecting one’s day to day life.
