That was very much the intended message of that scene, I’m glad you understood it, but it seems like you ignored the rest of the movie by focusing on that and definitely never watched the sequel where he worked through a lot of that stuff.
Yep, if you give me a shitty person with no empathetic characteristics I’m gonna switch off a little…
… that’s why good writing and good movies ACTIVELY AVOID turning the audience off their characters.
Oh they fixed it in a follow up movie??
That’s your argument that I should have paid attention to the first movie and really liked the hateable unrelatable main character??? That there was another two hour movie I should have committed to?
Surely you see how that’s a bad argument and you’re defending a crappy movie.
Hey you should watch (and like) Terminator 5 because they really fix it up with Terminator 7 and 8.
Nah bro, that’s not a good defense. That’s a shitty argument.
Characters that have vices and go through actual arcs where they change and become better is… like a standard thing. Easy writing and easy movies avoid turning the audience off their characters because it’s difficult to be good at making a movie (as with any discipline, being really good at it is really hard). Obviously, as a writer you want to create interesting characters with tons of depth, something that feels real and flawed, but the difficulty is in not falling too far into ‘this person just sucks’ AND not going too far into ‘this person is infallible’. It’s even worse if you attempt to convince your audience of a flaw that doesn’t exist. Characters that have no flaws, or that lack real flaws and are just being angsty for poor reasons, are (generally, but not always) boring and uninteresting.
You fixating on the fact that Tony gets even better in the second movie from his starting point, when he’s already working through his arc in the first movie, is funny. It’s almost like good sequels are meant to build upon and add depth to their predecessors. Yes, the sequel takes some themes of the first and furthers them, unsurprisingly. No, you don’t need to wait for the sequel to see Tony begin to change.
You can dislike Iron Man if you want for whatever reason you want, but I wouldn’t go around trying to convince others it’s a bad movie, especially with the reasons you provided.
It’s not a convincing change, he goes from superficial and cocky privileged billionaire to cocky privileged billionaire with extra toys.
It’s ugly both times and just seems fake. There’s no gravitas or nuance depicted.
A character (when written well) is easy to identify with because they have human and well detailed moments that almost fall out of their context and into a universal context - a shopping bag breaking, a relative or pet dying, a childhood trauma, a shoe that gets a pebble in it, a shitty boss, being dumped… Having an addiction.
Strippers on jets and being captured by terrorists?
Nah. Like I say, he ends up essentially where he started. Also, I don’t really believe that he got rid of the strippers. Like I don’t really think he stopped viewing women like that. It wouldn’t have surprised me if they were still present at the end of the film. In fact, I think it would have been more honest if they were.
Not really sure why you’re coming across so hostile at the end lol, I also don’t like the film. Was just curious about whether you were saying that villains should be sympathetic, but I can see your point about protagonists - altho a convincing redemption arc does require an unlikeable protagonist, or at least a protagonist with unlikeable traits I personally feel.
You should know better than arguing against a personality cult. The Marvel studios is one step away from being an organized religion, it just needs to associate the viewers having Thetan awareness of alternate selves across the multiverse to the Sacred Marvel Timelines. PS, don’t bother mentioning the contradictory multiverses that explore and even acknowledge your claims, that will just rile them up.
That was very much the intended message of that scene, I’m glad you understood it, but it seems like you ignored the rest of the movie by focusing on that and definitely never watched the sequel where he worked through a lot of that stuff.
Yep, if you give me a shitty person with no empathetic characteristics I’m gonna switch off a little…
… that’s why good writing and good movies ACTIVELY AVOID turning the audience off their characters.
Oh they fixed it in a follow up movie??
That’s your argument that I should have paid attention to the first movie and really liked the hateable unrelatable main character??? That there was another two hour movie I should have committed to?
Surely you see how that’s a bad argument and you’re defending a crappy movie.
Hey you should watch (and like) Terminator 5 because they really fix it up with Terminator 7 and 8.
Nah bro, that’s not a good defense. That’s a shitty argument.
Characters that have vices and go through actual arcs where they change and become better is… like a standard thing. Easy writing and easy movies avoid turning the audience off their characters because it’s difficult to be good at making a movie (as with any discipline, being really good at it is really hard). Obviously, as a writer you want to create interesting characters with tons of depth, something that feels real and flawed, but the difficulty is in not falling too far into ‘this person just sucks’ AND not going too far into ‘this person is infallible’. It’s even worse if you attempt to convince your audience of a flaw that doesn’t exist. Characters that have no flaws, or that lack real flaws and are just being angsty for poor reasons, are (generally, but not always) boring and uninteresting.
You fixating on the fact that Tony gets even better in the second movie from his starting point, when he’s already working through his arc in the first movie, is funny. It’s almost like good sequels are meant to build upon and add depth to their predecessors. Yes, the sequel takes some themes of the first and furthers them, unsurprisingly. No, you don’t need to wait for the sequel to see Tony begin to change.
You can dislike Iron Man if you want for whatever reason you want, but I wouldn’t go around trying to convince others it’s a bad movie, especially with the reasons you provided.
It’s not a convincing change, he goes from superficial and cocky privileged billionaire to cocky privileged billionaire with extra toys.
It’s ugly both times and just seems fake. There’s no gravitas or nuance depicted.
A character (when written well) is easy to identify with because they have human and well detailed moments that almost fall out of their context and into a universal context - a shopping bag breaking, a relative or pet dying, a childhood trauma, a shoe that gets a pebble in it, a shitty boss, being dumped… Having an addiction.
Strippers on jets and being captured by terrorists?
Nah. Like I say, he ends up essentially where he started. Also, I don’t really believe that he got rid of the strippers. Like I don’t really think he stopped viewing women like that. It wouldn’t have surprised me if they were still present at the end of the film. In fact, I think it would have been more honest if they were.
Good writing should not turn audiences against characters?
Not if they the main character and they’re going to have a convincing redemption arc. I just didn’t find it to be a good movie, or a good redemption.
Who are the enemies - people? But they’re “der terrorists”.
Nah, it was a shit movie. Tony Stark remains a shitty character. It’s my opinion, not everyone agrees or likes the same things - deal with it.
Not really sure why you’re coming across so hostile at the end lol, I also don’t like the film. Was just curious about whether you were saying that villains should be sympathetic, but I can see your point about protagonists - altho a convincing redemption arc does require an unlikeable protagonist, or at least a protagonist with unlikeable traits I personally feel.
Anyway, have a good day ✌️
Yeah, you too man, have a good day.
You should know better than arguing against a personality cult. The Marvel studios is one step away from being an organized religion, it just needs to associate the viewers having Thetan awareness of alternate selves across the multiverse to the Sacred Marvel Timelines. PS, don’t bother mentioning the contradictory multiverses that explore and even acknowledge your claims, that will just rile them up.