• 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    You and the following countries call it genocide: Iran, Iraq, Syria, Malaysia, Brazil, South Africa, Venezuela. ❌

    Me and the following countries say it is not genocide: USA, UK, the EU, NATO, Germany, France, Australia, Norway, Japan, and Canada. ✅

    E: These downvotes are called cognitive dissonance. Your brains literally cannot let you recognize I am right because ya’ll are so dug in. Canada disagrees with you. Doesn’t that throw up a red flag that maybe you got tricked?

    • jonne@infosec.pub
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      5 months ago

      It’s only called genocide if it’s from the genocide region in France, otherwise it’s just sparkling mass murder.

    • CaractacusPottsOP
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      5 months ago

      The International Court of Justice has found it is "plausible" that Israel has committed acts that violate the Genocide Convention. In a provisional order delivered by the court’s president, Joan Donoghue, the court said Israel must ensure “with immediate effect” that its forces not commit any of the acts prohibited by the convention.

      she said that given the deteriorating situation in Gaza, the court has jurisdiction to order measures to protect Gaza’s population from further risk of genocide. https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227078791/icj-israel-genocide-gaza-palestinians-south-africa

      Further you are using a variation of the Argumentum ad populum logical fallacy. It’s immaterial which countries agree or disagree. In the end it’s the court that matters.

      Ad populum fallacy refers to a claim that something is true simply because that’s what a large number of people believe. In other words, if many people believe something to be true, then it must be true.

      • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Plausible ≠ probable.

        It’s a very low standard of proof.

        I disagree. International affairs, coalitions and who supports it matters very much. Do you have an explanation for why you are siding with Iran and every other alt right theocratic shithole? Oh, you think in this instance they are beneveolent and concerned for human rights, and not just furthering Hamas’s strategy of human shields and lawfare?

        I read the order in it’s entirety, have you?

        • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          When it comes to human shields, the only independent verification back in 2014 is of Weapons (not rockets) hidden at a vacant school, situated btwn 2 UNRWA schools housing displaced people, by a Palestinian armed group.

          The Guardian journalists had encountered a couple individuals in 2014 too.

          HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009

          Amnesty on Hamas War Crimes 2023

          Yet none of those come remotely close to making hospitals and schools bombing targets. Even if all the IDF claims were true, that does not exempt those hospitals and schools as protected under international law.

          And let’s just conveniently ignore how much the IDF uses human shields while we’re at it

          Or do you like to use the IDF as a credible source despite the lack of independent verification?

          • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I find the diplomatic and intelligence consensuses of the US, EU, UK, NATO, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Norway, and Canada to have more credibility than your links to Human Rights Watch.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch

            What’s more likely, Canada got this one wrong or that you got tricked?

            Hamas’s strategy is to trick you by using human shields and exaggerated civilian casualties: lying to people about whether to evacuate, holding people against their will, convincing them to willingly stay in harm’s way to die for the cause. This is how Hamas operates and has been operating for decades. I don’t need to spell it out with links because it’s easily verifiable information.

            The idea that Israel uses human shields is absolute lunacy. Shields for what, where?

              • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Yeah bud I know. Until October 7, I would have agreed with you. The tunnels are forfeit now. They have to go. Sucks that the Palestinian people let Hamas undermine their homes and schools with unsafe tunnels and then used them to launch one indiscriminate terrorist attack on Israel after another. October 7 was the end of the line for Hamas.

                Because the people didn’t get rid of Hamas and the tunnels and put an end to the terrorism themselves, now the tunnels have to be destroyed by the neighbor. If they call ahead and tell everyone to get away from the building, that’s valid under any legal or moral standard for warfare.

                Nothing I’ve said excuses the actual war crimes committed by groups or individuals in the IDF. Israel will prosecute them pretty fairly and fairly aggressively. Maybe they might even throw the fucking book at them to help shut down some of these wildly exaggerated narratives.

                While I don’t think there is evidence of genocide or genocidal intent, that could change if, after destroying Hamas and the tunnels, Israel were to do things such as fail to rebuild the housing, hospitals, and schools it has destroyed in order to get to the tunnels. That’s part of Israel’s duty as a neighbor: Before October 7, I viewed Israel’s occupation and control over Gaza as illegal annexation. But the tunnels are forfeit now and since the very foundation of the cities themselves make the ground above structurally inhabitable, now I consider it irredentism. The Palestinian people have no capacity to govern or rebuild without their neighbor’s good will, at this point.

                As a Democracy, I have hope that the Israeli people are people of good will and will make right what can be restored.

                • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  You’re excusing the war crimes of Israel starving the people of Gaza of food, water, electricity, and basic medical care while they bomb residential homes, critical public infrastructure, safe zones, and refugee camps. The decades of brutal occupation, the deprivation of basic human rights of Palestinians.

                  You’re failing to recognize how groups like Hamas exist in the first place and you’re failing to recognize how this repeated forced displacement, unending bombing, and deprivation of fundamental needs is not how those groups go away.

                  The tunnels are a result of the blockade blocking necessities along with Israel controlling water, electricity, sea, air, movement, etc.

                  The “humanitarian corridors” are ethnic cleansing

              • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Pal read through the bullshit you’re posting.

                Click the links. Read the articles.

                This is what pro-Hamas news coverage calls “human shields”:

                With the ‘early warning’ procedure the Israeli army would force local Palestinians to approach the homes of militants and tell them to surrender.

                That is what Israel outlawed.

                That’s a pretty loose definition of human shields. Hamas literally surrounds themselves with dozens or hundreds of people and builds military infrastructure under their homes.

                Your premise is ridiculous.

                • المنطقة عكف عفريت@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  With the ‘early warning’ procedure the Israeli army would force local Palestinians to approach the homes of militants and tell them to surrender.

                  That is what Israel outlawed.

                  Which part of this is acceptable to you? Which part of forcing a civilian Palestinian to enter a military area or battle zone is acceptable to you?


                  Here are some examples of Israel using Palestinians as a human shield (either under the definition or not):



                  • “In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.” source: Wikipedia source from below)


                  • “On Friday, 13 May 2022, at around 6:00 A.M., Israeli troops, including Special Police Unit forces, entered the al-Hadaf neighborhood in Jenin. They stopped by the home of the extended Mer’eb family, blew up the door of Muhammad and Manal Mer’eb’s apartment on the first floor, and called for the couple’s son Mahmoud (20) to come out. The parents came out with three of their children – ‘Ahd (16), Fares (9) and 'Abd a-Rahman (4). Mahmoud stayed in the apartment. Two of Muhammad’s brothers, their mother Khairiyah (64), and their wives and children – 12 people in total – stayed in their apartments on the top floor.” Shortly after the family members came outside, armed Palestinians began firing at the forces. An exchange of fire ensued, in which Mahmoud Mer’eb also participated, firing from inside the apartment. After about three hours, the family members on the top floor also came outside, and then the forces fired at least six missiles at the house. One of the armed Palestinians, Daoud Zubeideh, a resident of Jenin Refugee Camp, and Special Police Unit commander Noam Raz sustained critical injuries in the exchange of fire. Both later died of their wounds. Testimonies collected by B’Tselem’s field researcher indicate that during their attempt to draw Mahmoud outside, the forces used his parents, his sister ‘Ahd and his grandmother as human shields: they stood his father Muhammad and his sister ‘Ahd between the military jeeps and the armed Palestinians who were firing at them, leaving the two unprotected and exposed to gunfire; they ordered his mother Manal to go into the house – which was at the center of the exchange of fire – in order to persuade Mahmoud to come out and bring them the military robot they had sent towards the house; and finally, after Manal failed at the task they had assigned her, they ordered his grandmother to go inside, too, to try and convince Mahmoud to turn himself in. source: B’Tselem

                  • Or this one caught on video: “DURA, West Bank, Jan 16 (Reuters) - A Palestinian shop owner said Israeli troops used him as a human shield to protect themselves during a raid on the town of Dura in the occupied West Bank.” source: Reuters



                  And here is some more on this from Wikipedia:

                  According to B’tselem, the IDF repeatedly used Palestinians as human shields. This practice became military policy during the Second Intifada, and was only dropped when Adalah challenged the practice before Israel’s High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its ‘neighbor procedure’, whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former’s lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 “that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the ‘prior warning procedure’.” (link below)

                  You don’t like this website, fine… here is:

                  Edit: added pictures. Edit: fixed some formatting + reuters link

                  • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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                    5 months ago

                    I get it. Yeah, those are awful and I’m glad Israel outlawed such conduct.

                    So I’m 2004 we’ve got one bootlicker MP assaulting his single teenage ward by tying him to the jeep. Horrible judgment.

                    In 2022 two prisoners were left in the front of some police cars while their family members started firing at the police, and they forced the mother to go inside the house to try and persuade the shooters to surrender (and retrieve a robot). The three were unharmed.

                    In 2016 the shop owner was arrested and then the two soldiers walked behind him through a crowd of rock throwers instead of one in front, one behind, which is how a prisoner should be transported with two escorts.

                    That’s five people and your last article, which regardless of the website contains insufficient information to fact check the “reports” and is therefore not credible.

                    I’m talking about Human shields like in on October 18 in Northern Gaza when Hamas sent out a massive social media campaign falsely telling Palestinians to remain in their homes. Also when Hamas does things like, ya know, build a massive tunnel network to do terrorism underneath the homes of 3,600 people.

                    I’ll grant you your loose definition of “human shields” for the five people you’ve described and where there is five j assume there is a hundred. It’s been outlawed. I wonder if anyone did a follow up to these stories to see if the police/soldiers involved after the change in law were held accountable. Still, Im talking about something materially different.

            • المنطقة عكف عفريت@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              But aren’t most of those countries in your list countries with a colonial history?

              So, if you argue that we should draw conclusions based on which countries agree or disagree with the genocide charge, then surely you can see how this list of countries is actually argument against that? you know, given that most of those countries on your list were colonial or committed some kind of war crime or human rights violation in the past that they took ages to admit, hence not trustworthy when commenting on genocide claims?

              Based on your own logic, would you really trust France or the UK to comment on this situation where we have a colonial racist nation plundering the goods of another and grabbing their lands?

              Or perhaps Canada, who we now know committed genocide against the indigenous population?

              Please, when you start things off with flawed logic, it’s hard to arrive at the correct conclusion… better be careful.

              • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Yes they are, most all of them. There’s nothing flawed about it. Despite their colonial pasts everyone of these countries has embraced democracy, which is itself the greatest and most precious thing humankind has ever achieved. It took humans thousands of years to realize ourselves but we can be set back to the dark ages in a few bad years if authoritarian theocracies and Islamic fundamentalism achieve their goals of “death to America” and “death to Israel” and all that horseshit.

                I’m not siding with Canada that forced out indigenous people and kidnapped their kids. I’m talking about Canada right now. NATO right now. America right now. All standing up against a movement that desires a new world order led by Russia, North Korea, and Iran, right now. Nah, I’ll stick with the people who have mostly voted themselves away from colonialism and sectarian violence.

        • apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I’m sorry but read the UN’s own definition of genocide. There is no question that it meets the globally agreed upon definition of genocide. It is subject to “universal jurisdiction” meaning it can be prosecuted by any state in the UN. https://legal.un.org/avl////pdf/ha/cppcg/cppcg_e.pdf It encompasses ANY of the five acts included here: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.pdf

          You can whatabout all day long. Israel is committing genocide.

        • CaractacusPottsOP
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          5 months ago

          What is Sealioning?

          Sealioning refers to the disingenuous action by a commenter of making an ostensible effort to engage in sincere and serious civil debate, usually by asking persistent questions of the other commenter. These questions are phrased in a way that may come off as an effort to learn and engage with the subject at hand, but are really intended to erode the goodwill of the person to whom they are replying, to get them to appear impatient or to lash out, and therefore come off as unreasonable.

        • groupofcrows
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          5 months ago

          But Hamas was financially supported by Netanyahu, what was his benevolent reason?

          And just because many governments agree with or are indifferent towards something, doesn’t make it right.

    • Doorbook@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I added a note to your username says “blame it on Iran” i wasn’t disappointed to see the first country in your list is Iran.

    • Skates@feddit.nl
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      5 months ago

      As a dual citizen of the wonderful countries of EU and NATO, I say it is genocide. Get bent.