You and the following countries call it genocide: Iran, Iraq, Syria, Malaysia, Brazil, South Africa, Venezuela. ❌
Me and the following countries say it is not genocide: USA, UK, the EU, NATO, Germany, France, Australia, Norway, Japan, and Canada. ✅
E: These downvotes are called cognitive dissonance. Your brains literally cannot let you recognize I am right because ya’ll are so dug in. Canada disagrees with you. Doesn’t that throw up a red flag that maybe you got tricked?
The International Court of Justice has found it is "plausible" that Israel has committed acts that violate the Genocide Convention. In a provisional order delivered by the court’s president, Joan Donoghue, the court said Israel must ensure “with immediate effect” that its forces not commit any of the acts prohibited by the convention.
Further you are using a variation of the Argumentum ad populum logical fallacy. It’s immaterial which countries agree or disagree. In the end it’s the court that matters.
Ad populum fallacy refers to a claim that something is true simply because that’s what a large number of people believe. In other words, if many people believe something to be true, then it must be true.
I disagree. International affairs, coalitions and who supports it matters very much. Do you have an explanation for why you are siding with Iran and every other alt right theocratic shithole? Oh, you think in this instance they are beneveolent and concerned for human rights, and not just furthering Hamas’s strategy of human shields and lawfare?
I find the diplomatic and intelligence consensuses of the US, EU, UK, NATO, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Norway, and Canada to have more credibility than your links to Human Rights Watch.
What’s more likely, Canada got this one wrong or that you got tricked?
Hamas’s strategy is to trick you by using human shields and exaggerated civilian casualties: lying to people about whether to evacuate, holding people against their will, convincing them to willingly stay in harm’s way to die for the cause. This is how Hamas operates and has been operating for decades. I don’t need to spell it out with links because it’s easily verifiable information.
The idea that Israel uses human shields is absolute lunacy. Shields for what, where?
That has more to do with the history of Global North/South and Neocolonialism. Not the reality on the ground or what’s morally right.
I’ve already linked info to what extent there is evidence Hamas uses human shields. You’re also referencing this call, no coercion.. Well, here’s some information that is verifiable. Or you should look into some New Historians, they know far more than me.
Yeah bud I know. Until October 7, I would have agreed with you. The tunnels are forfeit now. They have to go. Sucks that the Palestinian people let Hamas undermine their homes and schools with unsafe tunnels and then used them to launch one indiscriminate terrorist attack on Israel after another. October 7 was the end of the line for Hamas.
Because the people didn’t get rid of Hamas and the tunnels and put an end to the terrorism themselves, now the tunnels have to be destroyed by the neighbor. If they call ahead and tell everyone to get away from the building, that’s valid under any legal or moral standard for warfare.
Nothing I’ve said excuses the actual war crimes committed by groups or individuals in the IDF. Israel will prosecute them pretty fairly and fairly aggressively. Maybe they might even throw the fucking book at them to help shut down some of these wildly exaggerated narratives.
While I don’t think there is evidence of genocide or genocidal intent, that could change if, after destroying Hamas and the tunnels, Israel were to do things such as fail to rebuild the housing, hospitals, and schools it has destroyed in order to get to the tunnels. That’s part of Israel’s duty as a neighbor: Before October 7, I viewed Israel’s occupation and control over Gaza as illegal annexation. But the tunnels are forfeit now and since the very foundation of the cities themselves make the ground above structurally inhabitable, now I consider it irredentism. The Palestinian people have no capacity to govern or rebuild without their neighbor’s good will, at this point.
As a Democracy, I have hope that the Israeli people are people of good will and will make right what can be restored.
You’re excusing the war crimes of Israel starving the people of Gaza of food, water, electricity, and basic medical care while they bomb residential homes, critical public infrastructure, safe zones, and refugee camps. The decades of brutal occupation, the deprivation of basic human rights of Palestinians.
You’re failing to recognize how groups like Hamas exist in the first place and you’re failing to recognize how this repeated forced displacement, unending bombing, and deprivation of fundamental needs is not how those groups go away.
The tunnels are a result of the blockade blocking necessities along with Israel controlling water, electricity, sea, air, movement, etc.
This is what pro-Hamas news coverage calls “human shields”:
With the ‘early warning’ procedure the Israeli army would force local Palestinians to approach the homes of militants and tell them to surrender.
That is what Israel outlawed.
That’s a pretty loose definition of human shields. Hamas literally surrounds themselves with dozens or hundreds of people and builds military infrastructure under their homes.
With the ‘early warning’ procedure the Israeli army would force local Palestinians to approach the homes of militants and tell them to surrender.
That is what Israel outlawed.
Which part of this is acceptable to you? Which part of forcing a civilian Palestinian to enter a military area or battle zone is acceptable to you?
Here are some examples of Israel using Palestinians as a human shield (either under the definition or not):
“In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.” source: Wikipedia source from below)
“On Friday, 13 May 2022, at around 6:00 A.M., Israeli troops, including Special Police Unit forces, entered the al-Hadaf neighborhood in Jenin. They stopped by the home of the extended Mer’eb family, blew up the door of Muhammad and Manal Mer’eb’s apartment on the first floor, and called for the couple’s son Mahmoud (20) to come out. The parents came out with three of their children – ‘Ahd (16), Fares (9) and 'Abd a-Rahman (4). Mahmoud stayed in the apartment. Two of Muhammad’s brothers, their mother Khairiyah (64), and their wives and children – 12 people in total – stayed in their apartments on the top floor.” Shortly after the family members came outside, armed Palestinians began firing at the forces. An exchange of fire ensued, in which Mahmoud Mer’eb also participated, firing from inside the apartment. After about three hours, the family members on the top floor also came outside, and then the forces fired at least six missiles at the house. One of the armed Palestinians, Daoud Zubeideh, a resident of Jenin Refugee Camp, and Special Police Unit commander Noam Raz sustained critical injuries in the exchange of fire. Both later died of their wounds. Testimonies collected by B’Tselem’s field researcher indicate that during their attempt to draw Mahmoud outside, the forces used his parents, his sister ‘Ahd and his grandmother as human shields: they stood his father Muhammad and his sister ‘Ahd between the military jeeps and the armed Palestinians who were firing at them, leaving the two unprotected and exposed to gunfire; they ordered his mother Manal to go into the house – which was at the center of the exchange of fire – in order to persuade Mahmoud to come out and bring them the military robot they had sent towards the house; and finally, after Manal failed at the task they had assigned her, they ordered his grandmother to go inside, too, to try and convince Mahmoud to turn himself in. source: B’Tselem
Or this one caught on video: “DURA, West Bank, Jan 16 (Reuters) - A Palestinian shop owner said Israeli troops used him as a human shield to protect themselves during a raid on the town of Dura in the occupied West Bank.” source: Reuters
And here is some more on this from Wikipedia:
According to B’tselem, the IDF repeatedly used Palestinians as human shields. This practice became military policy during the Second Intifada, and was only dropped when Adalah challenged the practice before Israel’s High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its ‘neighbor procedure’, whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former’s lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 “that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the ‘prior warning procedure’.” (link below)
But aren’t most of those countries in your list countries with a colonial history?
So, if you argue that we should draw conclusions based on which countries agree or disagree with the genocide charge, then surely you can see how this list of countries is actually argument against that? you know, given that most of those countries on your list were colonial or committed some kind of war crime or human rights violation in the past that they took ages to admit, hence not trustworthy when commenting on genocide claims?
Based on your own logic, would you really trust France or the UK to comment on this situation where we have a colonial racist nation plundering the goods of another and grabbing their lands?
Or perhaps Canada, who we now know committed genocide against the indigenous population?
Yes they are, most all of them. There’s nothing flawed about it. Despite their colonial pasts everyone of these countries has embraced democracy, which is itself the greatest and most precious thing humankind has ever achieved. It took humans thousands of years to realize ourselves but we can be set back to the dark ages in a few bad years if authoritarian theocracies and Islamic fundamentalism achieve their goals of “death to America” and “death to Israel” and all that horseshit.
I’m not siding with Canada that forced out indigenous people and kidnapped their kids. I’m talking about Canada right now. NATO right now. America right now. All standing up against a movement that desires a new world order led by Russia, North Korea, and Iran, right now. Nah, I’ll stick with the people who have mostly voted themselves away from colonialism and sectarian violence.
I disagree. Happy to be proven wrong. Pretty much all Israel has to do is point to legit military targets and their record of effectively warning civilians.
Israel is prosecuting its own people for war crimes and incitement as appropriate.
Not much more than that is required by international law.
Sealioning refers to the disingenuous action by a commenter of making an ostensible effort to engage in sincere and serious civil debate, usually by asking persistent questions of the other commenter. These questions are phrased in a way that may come off as an effort to learn and engage with the subject at hand, but are really intended to erode the goodwill of the person to whom they are replying, to get them to appear impatient or to lash out, and therefore come off as unreasonable.
@[email protected] we’re all waiting… are you going to listen to reason and change your views based on evidence or are you going to say we all got tricked?
No, I did not know of these exact quotes. I know the Likud party is utter shit, authoritarian trash, and they should be voted out. I have a lot of faith that will happen especially if Israel fails to rebuild the housing and infrastructure. It’s a democracy so I can have faith that the better ideals will win out. Israel just had an election not that long ago and Likud barely won.
I have zero faith Gaza will ever embrace voting as a form of government. When was Gaza’s last election? Seems pretty reasonable to want to isolate political and economic capital in Gaza from the West Bank, for which I personally support statehood after benchmarks for anti corruption and anti terrorism efforts.
Thanks for admitting your mistake. It’s actuall refreshing. Next step is actually challenging your own views after being confronted with facts.
I have zero faith Gaza will ever embrace voting as a form of government.
Well, that’s funny… given that Hamas’ rise to power was during/right after an election. They already embraced that, long ago.
Seems pretty reasonable to want to isolate political and economic capital in Gaza from the West Bank,
Why? What’s reasonable about disallowing an ethnic group to have their own self-determination and representation in their own lands? the same lands you have plundered and renamed, and who you (Israel, not you) put under an apartheid rule… it’s only reasonable if you want to continue ethnically cleansing them and preventing them from ever taking part in “democratic” Israel or in their own Palestinian elections.
It isn’t branded genocide. It is definitional genocide.
You and the following countries call it genocide: Iran, Iraq, Syria, Malaysia, Brazil, South Africa, Venezuela. ❌
Me and the following countries say it is not genocide: USA, UK, the EU, NATO, Germany, France, Australia, Norway, Japan, and Canada. ✅
E: These downvotes are called cognitive dissonance. Your brains literally cannot let you recognize I am right because ya’ll are so dug in. Canada disagrees with you. Doesn’t that throw up a red flag that maybe you got tricked?
Further you are using a variation of the Argumentum ad populum logical fallacy. It’s immaterial which countries agree or disagree. In the end it’s the court that matters.
Plausible ≠ probable.
It’s a very low standard of proof.
I disagree. International affairs, coalitions and who supports it matters very much. Do you have an explanation for why you are siding with Iran and every other alt right theocratic shithole? Oh, you think in this instance they are beneveolent and concerned for human rights, and not just furthering Hamas’s strategy of human shields and lawfare?
I read the order in it’s entirety, have you?
When it comes to human shields, the only independent verification back in 2014 is of Weapons (not rockets) hidden at a vacant school, situated btwn 2 UNRWA schools housing displaced people, by a Palestinian armed group.
The Guardian journalists had encountered a couple individuals in 2014 too.
HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009
Amnesty on Hamas War Crimes 2023
Yet none of those come remotely close to making hospitals and schools bombing targets. Even if all the IDF claims were true, that does not exempt those hospitals and schools as protected under international law.
And let’s just conveniently ignore how much the IDF uses human shields while we’re at it
Or do you like to use the IDF as a credible source despite the lack of independent verification?
I find the diplomatic and intelligence consensuses of the US, EU, UK, NATO, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Norway, and Canada to have more credibility than your links to Human Rights Watch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch
What’s more likely, Canada got this one wrong or that you got tricked?
Hamas’s strategy is to trick you by using human shields and exaggerated civilian casualties: lying to people about whether to evacuate, holding people against their will, convincing them to willingly stay in harm’s way to die for the cause. This is how Hamas operates and has been operating for decades. I don’t need to spell it out with links because it’s easily verifiable information.
The idea that Israel uses human shields is absolute lunacy. Shields for what, where?
That has more to do with the history of Global North/South and Neocolonialism. Not the reality on the ground or what’s morally right.
I’ve already linked info to what extent there is evidence Hamas uses human shields. You’re also referencing this call, no coercion.. Well, here’s some information that is verifiable. Or you should look into some New Historians, they know far more than me.
For your convenience:
Plan Dalet and Declassified Massacres
1967 war Declassified
Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations
Palestinian Prisoners in Israel and Military Court
Child abuse of Palestinian prisoners
Gaza March for Return Protest
Palestinians lack civil rights
Occupation and 50 years of dispossession
Arab League advocating for unified state 1948
Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
10 Myths of Israel
History of peace process
How the US became the ally of Israel
Arab Israelis are not equal including Education (2001 report)
Apartheid
Human Shields including Children (2013 Report)
Settler Violence
Torture and Abuse in Interrogations
No freedom of movement
Gaza Blockade is Occupation
Water control
Yeah bud I know. Until October 7, I would have agreed with you. The tunnels are forfeit now. They have to go. Sucks that the Palestinian people let Hamas undermine their homes and schools with unsafe tunnels and then used them to launch one indiscriminate terrorist attack on Israel after another. October 7 was the end of the line for Hamas.
Because the people didn’t get rid of Hamas and the tunnels and put an end to the terrorism themselves, now the tunnels have to be destroyed by the neighbor. If they call ahead and tell everyone to get away from the building, that’s valid under any legal or moral standard for warfare.
Nothing I’ve said excuses the actual war crimes committed by groups or individuals in the IDF. Israel will prosecute them pretty fairly and fairly aggressively. Maybe they might even throw the fucking book at them to help shut down some of these wildly exaggerated narratives.
While I don’t think there is evidence of genocide or genocidal intent, that could change if, after destroying Hamas and the tunnels, Israel were to do things such as fail to rebuild the housing, hospitals, and schools it has destroyed in order to get to the tunnels. That’s part of Israel’s duty as a neighbor: Before October 7, I viewed Israel’s occupation and control over Gaza as illegal annexation. But the tunnels are forfeit now and since the very foundation of the cities themselves make the ground above structurally inhabitable, now I consider it irredentism. The Palestinian people have no capacity to govern or rebuild without their neighbor’s good will, at this point.
As a Democracy, I have hope that the Israeli people are people of good will and will make right what can be restored.
You’re excusing the war crimes of Israel starving the people of Gaza of food, water, electricity, and basic medical care while they bomb residential homes, critical public infrastructure, safe zones, and refugee camps. The decades of brutal occupation, the deprivation of basic human rights of Palestinians.
You’re failing to recognize how groups like Hamas exist in the first place and you’re failing to recognize how this repeated forced displacement, unending bombing, and deprivation of fundamental needs is not how those groups go away.
The tunnels are a result of the blockade blocking necessities along with Israel controlling water, electricity, sea, air, movement, etc.
The “humanitarian corridors” are ethnic cleansing
Israel literally had to outlaw using Palestinians as human shields in 2005.
Pal read through the bullshit you’re posting.
Click the links. Read the articles.
This is what pro-Hamas news coverage calls “human shields”:
That is what Israel outlawed.
That’s a pretty loose definition of human shields. Hamas literally surrounds themselves with dozens or hundreds of people and builds military infrastructure under their homes.
Your premise is ridiculous.
Which part of this is acceptable to you? Which part of forcing a civilian Palestinian to enter a military area or battle zone is acceptable to you?
Here are some examples of Israel using Palestinians as a human shield (either under the definition or not):
And here is some more on this from Wikipedia:
You don’t like this website, fine… here is:
Edit: added pictures. Edit: fixed some formatting + reuters link
But aren’t most of those countries in your list countries with a colonial history?
So, if you argue that we should draw conclusions based on which countries agree or disagree with the genocide charge, then surely you can see how this list of countries is actually argument against that? you know, given that most of those countries on your list were colonial or committed some kind of war crime or human rights violation in the past that they took ages to admit, hence not trustworthy when commenting on genocide claims?
Based on your own logic, would you really trust France or the UK to comment on this situation where we have a colonial racist nation plundering the goods of another and grabbing their lands?
Or perhaps Canada, who we now know committed genocide against the indigenous population?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2021/sep/06/canada-residential-schools-indigenous-children-cultural-genocide-map
https://theconversation.com/how-canada-committed-genocide-against-indigenous-peoples-explained-by-the-lawyer-central-to-the-determination-162582
Please, when you start things off with flawed logic, it’s hard to arrive at the correct conclusion… better be careful.
Yes they are, most all of them. There’s nothing flawed about it. Despite their colonial pasts everyone of these countries has embraced democracy, which is itself the greatest and most precious thing humankind has ever achieved. It took humans thousands of years to realize ourselves but we can be set back to the dark ages in a few bad years if authoritarian theocracies and Islamic fundamentalism achieve their goals of “death to America” and “death to Israel” and all that horseshit.
I’m not siding with Canada that forced out indigenous people and kidnapped their kids. I’m talking about Canada right now. NATO right now. America right now. All standing up against a movement that desires a new world order led by Russia, North Korea, and Iran, right now. Nah, I’ll stick with the people who have mostly voted themselves away from colonialism and sectarian violence.
They are democratic hence can’t be wrong. They can’t be wrong because they’re democratic.
Sounds totally logical!
I was wrong about most, turns out Norway also has a colonial history lol.
I’m sorry but read the UN’s own definition of genocide. There is no question that it meets the globally agreed upon definition of genocide. It is subject to “universal jurisdiction” meaning it can be prosecuted by any state in the UN. https://legal.un.org/avl////pdf/ha/cppcg/cppcg_e.pdf It encompasses ANY of the five acts included here: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.pdf
You can whatabout all day long. Israel is committing genocide.
I disagree. Happy to be proven wrong. Pretty much all Israel has to do is point to legit military targets and their record of effectively warning civilians.
Israel is prosecuting its own people for war crimes and incitement as appropriate.
Not much more than that is required by international law.
Ok, here’s some resources to learn more about it
ICJ Ruling archived here because NYT sucks
800+ Legal Scholars on International Law and Genocide on whether it amounts to genocide
5 more experts on the subject
Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide
GDF has a pretty good video on it imo
Accountability
Don’t bother with this user. His history is full of stupid statements.
Ridiculous for you to accuse me of being disingenuous, based on nothing.
But Hamas was financially supported by Netanyahu, what was his benevolent reason?
And just because many governments agree with or are indifferent towards something, doesn’t make it right.
Another ridiculous claim. Where’d ya get that one, Qatari state media?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/16/how-benjamin-netanyahu-empowered-hamas/
https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7010035
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12%3Famp
@[email protected] we’re all waiting… are you going to listen to reason and change your views based on evidence or are you going to say we all got tricked?
I’m surprised, JustZ. Maybe you missed that. It was at the start of the war. Bibi funded Hamas, and we know thanks to Israeli media.
Again, I’m actually surprised you didn’t know.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
I wonder if you will owe up to your mistake, or instead tell us all we got tricked?
No, I did not know of these exact quotes. I know the Likud party is utter shit, authoritarian trash, and they should be voted out. I have a lot of faith that will happen especially if Israel fails to rebuild the housing and infrastructure. It’s a democracy so I can have faith that the better ideals will win out. Israel just had an election not that long ago and Likud barely won.
I have zero faith Gaza will ever embrace voting as a form of government. When was Gaza’s last election? Seems pretty reasonable to want to isolate political and economic capital in Gaza from the West Bank, for which I personally support statehood after benchmarks for anti corruption and anti terrorism efforts.
Thanks for admitting your mistake. It’s actuall refreshing. Next step is actually challenging your own views after being confronted with facts.
Well, that’s funny… given that Hamas’ rise to power was during/right after an election. They already embraced that, long ago.
Why? What’s reasonable about disallowing an ethnic group to have their own self-determination and representation in their own lands? the same lands you have plundered and renamed, and who you (Israel, not you) put under an apartheid rule… it’s only reasonable if you want to continue ethnically cleansing them and preventing them from ever taking part in “democratic” Israel or in their own Palestinian elections.
I added a note to your username says “blame it on Iran” i wasn’t disappointed to see the first country in your list is Iran.
How can you add notes? Are you using a specific app?
If you were smarter than a doorknob it would be first on your list when discussing any middle east policy, too.
As a dual citizen of the wonderful countries of EU and NATO, I say it is genocide. Get bent.