Free will also isn’t real, but I don’t go around to people I know and care about trying to collapse their entire world view around it. Sometimes it’s better if people believe in fundamentally incorrect things that don’t impact others.
Edit: here’s a crazy idea, if you think I’m wrong…that’s ok. Just leave me be? Maybe? Isn’t that the point of my entire initial comment. Lol.
It was relevant to this discussion as I’m saying I similarly wouldn’t bring this truth up with someone like my mother or similar as shown in the original post.
My goal is not to convince anyone who feels differently, I just felt others could relate to my example. I will not provide any explanation unless specifically asked as my goal here is not to force my knowledge onto someone who doesn’t want it.
I think he’s trying to refute your claim that your will isn’t free. I.e. you made that comment of your own free will. Not literally asking why you made the comment.
I do not believe I had free will to make or not the comment. And this seems upsetting to many. So I suggest they just keep their world view if it benefits them.
You said that free will isn’t real and went on to say the reason YOU DECIDED to make that comment, as well as what YOUR GOAL was, and what YOU WILL OR WILL NOT DO.
If you’re not the one deciding what you did in the past or what you will or won’t do in the future, it seems pretty arrogant of you to speak one way or the other about it.
At best, maybe you’re saying that all existence is just made up of particles colliding and interacting with each other, and that if you knew the exact position, vector, and velocity of the most base level of all particles, you could perfectly predict all future events or extrapolate past events and that we’re all forced to proceed just like pool balls moving on the table. Since we currently can’t map those values for a single electron, I’m thinking that maybe your “truth” can’t be extrapolated to the rest of the 99.99999999999% of existence that we haven’t discovered and don’t understand.
My favorite part is at the end where you say you’re not going to force “your knowledge” on anyone, as if you’ve found this immutable truth that the rest of us are just too daft to understand.
My guess is that you’re between 13 and 22 years old and like to feel special by knowing “the truth.” That’s why we have flat earthers and people who say that 5G causes autism. Their goal is to feel like one of the enlightened ones much more than performing or understanding research.
If you really want to be a lifelong learner and something closer to a scientist, your goal won’t be to arrive at some final destination (“my knowledge”/“the truth”) but to continue to move forward, press on, learn more, take it to the next level (“my most recent theory…”/“what I’m thinking right now…”/“this study suggests…”), and drop the arrogance and fake superiority.
It’s true, I spent way too long replying. I usually avoid engaging but I think it was the absurdity that made me throw away what had to be at least a combined hour of my day. They knew the true nature of the universe and tried to convince an atheism group.
It was obvious pretty quickly that they weren’t in a place where they could accept their belief being challenged, but maybe a really bored person read it all and took something away from it.
I guess you were also predestined to not address any of the points I made?
Telling someone that their thought process is flawed/immature is not the same as being triggered.
If logic doesn’t move the needle, how about this: every person who thinks they have it all figured out is seen by most others as an arrogant douche.
If you ask any real scientist who’s running real research and experimentation - those people who have 1,000 more understanding of the subject for which you claim to hold “The Truth” - they’ll tell you that every new discovery leads to many more questions. The last step of the scientific process isn’t, “sit back and enjoy having figured it all out.” It just starts over.
The reason I think (hope) you’re younger is because it’s more natural for younger people to believe that they get it, they understand, they have the answer. After all, that’s much of what school pounds into us: here’s The Answers. Repeat them back to me for full credit. Most education is focused on creating a foundation for different subject areas as opposed to teaching students how to learn and think for themselves. Having “the answer” and being “right” is heavily encouraged and younger people gain validation from it. It’s natural to continue reaching for more truths and answers instead of innately valuing the learning process itself.
A lot of people never grow out of that stage. Feeling like you own all the answers can be quite comforting. That’s why the mom in the comic is broken on the floor. She just lost all the answers that got her that far in life. You probably relate to the guys in the first frames who know The Truth (god isn’t real) but you’re also being represented by the woman on the floor. You don’t know how to cope with the actual truth which is that you don’t and will never know The Truth. The best you can do is accept your current level of understanding in all its deficiencies and to keep learning more.
If you currently possess the ability to take in what I said and accept some new Truths about yourself, great. I’m really writing for anyone who might see this and benefit from your example.
Telling someone that their thought process is flawed/immature is not the same as being triggered.
The amount of text contained in your answer is usually associated with “being triggered” though (at least in my experience)
Then again, depending on what exactly one means with “triggered”, you could say that you’ve “been triggered” (like activating some mechanism or something) to write a long response :D
(Not trying to join any side of the original discussion, just sharing what’s on my mind ^^)
If “triggered” means to be influenced to think or act due to stimuli, then sure, everything is triggering to everyone all of the time. You were triggered to respond. I was triggered to pee when I woke up.
I have answered the only question presented to me. The rest is you ranting aimlessly to feel better about your own position.
I wish I had 1,000 more understanding though! If you have any legitimate evidence to provide that demonstrates I’m wrong, please share it. If not, shut the fuck up. Or don’t. It’s not in your control anyway.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could meaningfully clarify what ‘truths’ I should take away from your comment and why.
It sounds like there’s already some cracks in your foundation, and that’s a good thing. If you were privy to The Truth you surely wouldn’t care about what one person thinks about how flawed your thought process is. You definitely wouldn’t tell them to shut the fuck up.
That shows that you’re a bit rattled and don’t like having your authority challenged. If you can become aware of this predisposition within yourself, you can start to change it.
Anyone who “knows how it all works” stops learning because there is nothing more to learn. They started digging and got all the way to the bottom and there’s no more to go. You said you wish you had a 1,000 times more understanding which doesn’t align with your position of owning The Truth. Either you understand The Truth or you have a lot of understanding to go. You can’t have both. And spoiler, no one has ever come anywhere close to The Truth in any discipline. What we can do however is increase our understanding to be used in meaningful ways and to create and test current and new theories as we keep moving forward.
You can accept this, or tell me to shut the fuck up and down vote my comment. If it’s the latter I hope that this either planted a seed or was meaningful in any way to someone else.
I’ll edit my comment to respond to the edited addition in your last one:
The truth is that you don’t and won’t ever know The Truth. Knowledge is a journey, not a destination. Claiming to know The Truth is arrogance and leads to the end of learning. Intellectuals seek to learn more and keep digging while they understand that they’ll never reach the bottom.
If everything is predestined, whatever you choose is your destiny. Which means you get to choose your destiny. Even if the decision is already determined, your decision process is a part of that and whatever you decide is what becomes the future (or present). Predetermination is irrelevant unless it can be seen beforehand, but if it could, that knowledge could be acted on to change it. So either you can see the future and change it, or you can’t so there’s no functional difference between it being indeterminate.
If you define “free will” as individual processing of input based on your genetic makeup and past experiences/memories and circumstances, with some inherent randomness. Then i guess free will is real.
![Victory? [elder cactus]](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/244d43ec-eeec-4e9c-a97a-a7e978cc47a5.jpeg){kind=link}
Free will also isn’t real, but I don’t go around to people I know and care about trying to collapse their entire world view around it. Sometimes it’s better if people believe in fundamentally incorrect things that don’t impact others.
Edit: here’s a crazy idea, if you think I’m wrong…that’s ok. Just leave me be? Maybe? Isn’t that the point of my entire initial comment. Lol.
Why did you write this comment?
Because he wanted someone to ask, “What do you mean free will isn’t real?!?!?”
It was relevant to this discussion as I’m saying I similarly wouldn’t bring this truth up with someone like my mother or similar as shown in the original post.
My goal is not to convince anyone who feels differently, I just felt others could relate to my example. I will not provide any explanation unless specifically asked as my goal here is not to force my knowledge onto someone who doesn’t want it.
I think he’s trying to refute your claim that your will isn’t free. I.e. you made that comment of your own free will. Not literally asking why you made the comment.
I do not believe I had free will to make or not the comment. And this seems upsetting to many. So I suggest they just keep their world view if it benefits them.
Woosh.
You said that free will isn’t real and went on to say the reason YOU DECIDED to make that comment, as well as what YOUR GOAL was, and what YOU WILL OR WILL NOT DO.
If you’re not the one deciding what you did in the past or what you will or won’t do in the future, it seems pretty arrogant of you to speak one way or the other about it.
At best, maybe you’re saying that all existence is just made up of particles colliding and interacting with each other, and that if you knew the exact position, vector, and velocity of the most base level of all particles, you could perfectly predict all future events or extrapolate past events and that we’re all forced to proceed just like pool balls moving on the table. Since we currently can’t map those values for a single electron, I’m thinking that maybe your “truth” can’t be extrapolated to the rest of the 99.99999999999% of existence that we haven’t discovered and don’t understand.
My favorite part is at the end where you say you’re not going to force “your knowledge” on anyone, as if you’ve found this immutable truth that the rest of us are just too daft to understand.
My guess is that you’re between 13 and 22 years old and like to feel special by knowing “the truth.” That’s why we have flat earthers and people who say that 5G causes autism. Their goal is to feel like one of the enlightened ones much more than performing or understanding research.
If you really want to be a lifelong learner and something closer to a scientist, your goal won’t be to arrive at some final destination (“my knowledge”/“the truth”) but to continue to move forward, press on, learn more, take it to the next level (“my most recent theory…”/“what I’m thinking right now…”/“this study suggests…”), and drop the arrogance and fake superiority.
I love when I sit on responding to a direct reply for a few days and come to find someone has saved me a TON of time typing up a response :)
It’s true, I spent way too long replying. I usually avoid engaging but I think it was the absurdity that made me throw away what had to be at least a combined hour of my day. They knew the true nature of the universe and tried to convince an atheism group.
It was obvious pretty quickly that they weren’t in a place where they could accept their belief being challenged, but maybe a really bored person read it all and took something away from it.
Sorry I triggered you. I was predestined to make the comment I made. This one too. Please choose to disengage if it would benefit you most.
I’m always open to any evidence to change my position, I just never am presented with any.
I guess you were also predestined to not address any of the points I made?
Telling someone that their thought process is flawed/immature is not the same as being triggered.
If logic doesn’t move the needle, how about this: every person who thinks they have it all figured out is seen by most others as an arrogant douche.
If you ask any real scientist who’s running real research and experimentation - those people who have 1,000 more understanding of the subject for which you claim to hold “The Truth” - they’ll tell you that every new discovery leads to many more questions. The last step of the scientific process isn’t, “sit back and enjoy having figured it all out.” It just starts over.
The reason I think (hope) you’re younger is because it’s more natural for younger people to believe that they get it, they understand, they have the answer. After all, that’s much of what school pounds into us: here’s The Answers. Repeat them back to me for full credit. Most education is focused on creating a foundation for different subject areas as opposed to teaching students how to learn and think for themselves. Having “the answer” and being “right” is heavily encouraged and younger people gain validation from it. It’s natural to continue reaching for more truths and answers instead of innately valuing the learning process itself.
A lot of people never grow out of that stage. Feeling like you own all the answers can be quite comforting. That’s why the mom in the comic is broken on the floor. She just lost all the answers that got her that far in life. You probably relate to the guys in the first frames who know The Truth (god isn’t real) but you’re also being represented by the woman on the floor. You don’t know how to cope with the actual truth which is that you don’t and will never know The Truth. The best you can do is accept your current level of understanding in all its deficiencies and to keep learning more.
If you currently possess the ability to take in what I said and accept some new Truths about yourself, great. I’m really writing for anyone who might see this and benefit from your example.
Then again, depending on what exactly one means with “triggered”, you could say that you’ve “been triggered” (like activating some mechanism or something) to write a long response :D
(Not trying to join any side of the original discussion, just sharing what’s on my mind ^^)
If “triggered” means to be influenced to think or act due to stimuli, then sure, everything is triggering to everyone all of the time. You were triggered to respond. I was triggered to pee when I woke up.
Yes, that’s correct.
I have answered the only question presented to me. The rest is you ranting aimlessly to feel better about your own position.
I wish I had 1,000 more understanding though! If you have any legitimate evidence to provide that demonstrates I’m wrong, please share it. If not, shut the fuck up. Or don’t. It’s not in your control anyway.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could meaningfully clarify what ‘truths’ I should take away from your comment and why.
It sounds like there’s already some cracks in your foundation, and that’s a good thing. If you were privy to The Truth you surely wouldn’t care about what one person thinks about how flawed your thought process is. You definitely wouldn’t tell them to shut the fuck up.
That shows that you’re a bit rattled and don’t like having your authority challenged. If you can become aware of this predisposition within yourself, you can start to change it.
Anyone who “knows how it all works” stops learning because there is nothing more to learn. They started digging and got all the way to the bottom and there’s no more to go. You said you wish you had a 1,000 times more understanding which doesn’t align with your position of owning The Truth. Either you understand The Truth or you have a lot of understanding to go. You can’t have both. And spoiler, no one has ever come anywhere close to The Truth in any discipline. What we can do however is increase our understanding to be used in meaningful ways and to create and test current and new theories as we keep moving forward.
You can accept this, or tell me to shut the fuck up and down vote my comment. If it’s the latter I hope that this either planted a seed or was meaningful in any way to someone else.
I’ll edit my comment to respond to the edited addition in your last one:
The truth is that you don’t and won’t ever know The Truth. Knowledge is a journey, not a destination. Claiming to know The Truth is arrogance and leads to the end of learning. Intellectuals seek to learn more and keep digging while they understand that they’ll never reach the bottom.
2+2= who the fuck knows.
If everything is predestined, whatever you choose is your destiny. Which means you get to choose your destiny. Even if the decision is already determined, your decision process is a part of that and whatever you decide is what becomes the future (or present). Predetermination is irrelevant unless it can be seen beforehand, but if it could, that knowledge could be acted on to change it. So either you can see the future and change it, or you can’t so there’s no functional difference between it being indeterminate.
I agree entirely with your comment and I experience the illusion of free will. I just recognize it’s an illusion.
If you define “free will” as individual processing of input based on your genetic makeup and past experiences/memories and circumstances, with some inherent randomness. Then i guess free will is real.
God damn quantum mechanics is like a "get out of determinism” card.
Randomness is the exact opposite of what people usually mean by freedom, though, isn’t it?
Lol, thank you.
But it’s true. Our
neuronsaxons are as small as can be, hence they sometimes misfire. Our brain works on thatLol no it’s not. This is the dumbest argument of them all.
That there was a joke. What argument do you think I was making?
Misread your comment. My mistake. Missed the sarcasm.
Nah, that’s compatibilism. My favorite use of “that’s bullshit but I believe it”