It’s happens sometimes when you spend big on older players. People like to think that top players all stay at peak level deep into their 30s but many do tail off fast.
It happens when you buy a player who is good at quick progressive passes, good at defense, and great with quick possessions and you have him hold the ball, be the sole pivot, and not pair him with anyone that fits him. Using him as a sole pivot is especially a problem, that doesn’t make any sense in the modern game where every good team has two pivots, much less with a player that isn’t used to it
I’ve said this many times, anyone who saw KCM play knew Casemiro barely had any on ball responsibilities.
As soon as I saw that Ten Hag was asking him to spray the ball around the pitch like prime Pirlo I knew there’d be a problem. He can give you a few good passes and dribbles but he can’t do it every game for 90 minutes, never has ever had to.
Now All of a sudden he’s “washed”, he’s far from washed imo. Any team looking for a pure destroyer type CDM, and already has good ball playing CMs would benefit him greatly. United’s other midfielders aside from Bruno are not up to standard.
It happens but it shouldn’t and wouldn’t to these 4-5 time champions league winners there’s some common factors in the dips in performance with these two players we’ve seen it with Ronaldo as well.
Everytime you mention someone over 30 might decline suddenly you are bombarded with people claiming that there’s “no way a professional like him” could decline and that sports science has gotten so advanced that it essentially trumps biology meaning there’s no reason players would decline one bit before they’re 36 at the earliest.
This subreddit and other social media were hilarious when they signed them. Like it’s logical to question the merits of spending that much on players of that age. Sure there’s some who have held off their declines, but the majority of players dip at a certain age. For the money United spent, they could have bought far better long term options.
For the money United spent, they could have bought far better long term options.
But they didn’t want long term options. They’ve got the cash to sign a Casemiro every year or two.
They’d rather overpay for proven players than risk spending a chunk on a player who’s not quite as good, but has room to improve.
Players of his calibre are so rarely available, and especially not willing to go to a borderline CL qualifier with little realistic chance of a title win.
The problem Man U have is that they’ve got the resources for those top drawer players, but they’re not an attractive option.
I mean, imagine them trying to sign Jude Bellingham. Is there actually an amount of money they could have given him to sign there? 3, 4, 5 times the wages Madrid offered? I think he’d still go to Real.
And if he did go to Man U, it would literally only be for money, so not that motivated to put in a good performance. As we’ve seen over and over.
United now are no different to when Liverpool were taken over by FSG. They focused on long term building with smart signings. Signing players after in decline or just before their decline isn’t getting them anywhere. There’s a world of options between Casemiro and Bellingham.
A few high profile players elongated their careers and now everyone on here thinks all footballers can play past their mid thirties and goalkeepers begin their prime at 30
Your comment generalizes and says nothing of value
Nobody has ever said what you are saying you are just overexaggaratting, when both Casemiro and Varane were signed people quesioned it including like Carragher etc
Your point is awful, age matters yes but 3 months of bad performances doesn’t mean 31 year old player is shit and has declined, what would happen if he is good next season? Does age not matter or is it just shit overall team performance by basically everyone
On one hand casemiro has gotten away with murder on the field without getting a card so many times in the other hand that may be a skill. Not really sure how to read these stats - feels like context makes it too nuanced.
Yup! I remember getting attacked here for questioning the value of Casemiro at his age/price/contract cos who wants to believe that a player they like might decline soon. Was the same with Peresic who everyone assured me would be a wonderful wingback adapting to PL aged 33!!!
It’s a real minority who play deep into their 30s, handing out big contracts to such players should be done with real care and scrutiny unless you are a monopoly money club then whatever gamble away!
Many people often also ignore the human element of this. They think footballers are robots like in their games of FIFA on PS5. There are so many examples of footballers losing their drive to stay at peak performance or who want to move onto other interests.
There are so many examples of footballers losing their drive to stay at peak performance or who want to move onto other interests.
And I can’t really blame them.
You’ve earned millions, played tons of important games, won trophies. At some point you might think ‘‘been there, done that’’ and start prioritizing other things besides your footballing career.
For some players the drive to compete and strive for the best never diminishes but it’s not all what’s out there.
Not to mention, when a player is young and poor they are hungry. I just am not certain how a 32 year old, who is worth millions can have that same want to get out of bed every day with achy joints and go train, instead of living in leisure and just putting in the time. It is still a job and many forget that.
This wave of guys like Ronaldo, Messi, Ibra, Thiago Silva, Modric, have made people forged that 90% of players over 32 are going to drop their performance lvl. People forget these are professionals with their hands on top level technology, nutricion, recovering etc. Also 2 of them were born with probably 1 in a million natural genaracional talent. That and like you said games like Fifa and FM have made people look at older player in a diferent way ( which is not all 100% correct). Hell, 15 years ago, a 29 year old player would be called ancient.
That and like you said games like Fifa and FM have made people look at older player in a diferent way ( which is not all 100% correct).
FIFA and FM very much help ingrain the idea that players are washed up and on the decline as soon as they hit 30 - which is the opposite of what you’re saying.
I get your point about players like Modric, Messi, Ibra, Silva, etc, distorting people’s opinions of how long a player can be at their peak for - but the FIFA/FM part is nonsense.
I 100% did this. I said “A 29 year old is a total waste of our time and money. its ridiculous. wtf are we doing? The club has lost it! He’s totally washed and over the hill! Did we learn nothing from Joe Cole?!? FFS!”
Which is a stupid argument. Plenty of players that look after their body just decline physically though no fault of their own in their 30s. Look at Diego Forlán. He was always in peak shape, single digit bodyfat and wanted to run for everything, known for longevity. Yet just before the 2011 Copa América when he was 32, he just fell off of a cliff at club level, didn’t score in 12 games and just did not have the legs to play in Europe anymore as a mobile striker. Sometimes it just happens, players decline regardless of how well they look after their body. No one can beat farther time. Jordan Henderson is another example, be was declining for years before leaving Liverpool, despite always being in tip top shape.
Its millage in the legs also… messi and Ronaldo always were efficient with the effort… would walk half the game etc… it’s the charge around non stop players who’s muscles and tendons just lose their snap
I actually don’t think most people think this. I think most people HOPE that top players extend their time at the top, but are well aware of the evidence that it’s unlikely.
Soccernomics has their research saying most players peak at 27 IIRC. And that seems to be commonly accepted. Hence why there are so many revelatory articles about players 30+ continuing to do well, Mo for example.
Yeah but Chelsea got him for free. Even if he had been garbage he would’ve been valuable for culture. Cavani, Thiago Silva, Zlatan, Larsson, etc all good signings. Even someone like Gary Mac for Liverpool.
If United had signed him for free they’d still be going on about how good he is. But on the flip slide Chelsea would never have spent £70m on Casemiro.
You guys are a money-no-object club, you can absolutely afford to take the gambles and pocket the wins. United are having to budget carefully for FFP and they’ve blown a fortune on transfer fee/wages here!
United have even more money than chelsea, just chelsea sometimes actually sell players they’ve spunked away all their money on so they can spunk away some more money
What part of that doesn’t mean giving a huge contract to an aging player is a risk? You seem to be arguing that it’s not a risk because he was signed on a free transfer.
See another stupid comment with goldfish memory and just zero evidence
Rashford never gives a fuck, he sulked and didn’t jump for headers last season any time i watched but he scored goals so your goldfish memory forgets that
Rashford and AWB examples are fluctuations in form, an inherent lack of consistency, and/or fit with the manager’s tactics and what the squad needs. This is different than an age-related decline in quality when a player hits a point where their experience and knowledge of the game is no longer able to make up for the loss of athleticism.
Outside of significant injuries, it’s rare that a good player hits their peak in their early-mid 20s and can never get back to that. A lot will reach their potential and stop developing but they don’t go backwards. That’s why it’s so surprising and attracts attention when it does happen, e.g. Dele.
Players in their mid 20s peak and fall off all the time we have thousands of examples, some players are just not that good and peak fall off season after season
Sure, you can find some, but thousands of examples? I think it’s far more often the case that the players that look to have gotten worse really aren’t, they are just being expected to play at a level beyond their abilities so they look bad. For example a player having a great season in the Championship, getting sold to a PL team and doing poorly most likely isn’t receding from their peak, they were never a PL level player to begin with.
Rashford’s a budget player who turns it on for 7 months when a contract is on the line. Xhaka grew as a player when his role was adapted to provide him better cover to make up for his lack of pace and somewhat questionable defensive instincts. Casemiro has just gotten old after being consistent forever.
Younger players who function better in one system or another or others who turn it on at pinch points in their career are not the same as older player going over the hill.
Also how Casemiro got REALLY fat in the offseason.
One would think he would try to stay in shape now he is over 30. Nope. Party all the way and pick up a lot of weight that needed to be shed really fast.
Tbh it’s really quite common for guys who’ve won everything towards the end of their careers to come back in not the best shape. They’re human after all, some players stay super motivated into their deep 30s but I don’t blame anyone who lets themself go a little bit. It’s more you don’t wanna be on the hook for lying such a player a quarter million a week cos 3 years ago he was a world beater!
In basketball it’s typically that after you hit like 31, 32 you have a 15-20% chance of injury that you never really recover from. Idk if it’s happened to casemiro here or not though.
It’s happens sometimes when you spend big on older players. People like to think that top players all stay at peak level deep into their 30s but many do tail off fast.
It happens when you buy a player who is good at quick progressive passes, good at defense, and great with quick possessions and you have him hold the ball, be the sole pivot, and not pair him with anyone that fits him. Using him as a sole pivot is especially a problem, that doesn’t make any sense in the modern game where every good team has two pivots, much less with a player that isn’t used to it
I’ve said this many times, anyone who saw KCM play knew Casemiro barely had any on ball responsibilities.
As soon as I saw that Ten Hag was asking him to spray the ball around the pitch like prime Pirlo I knew there’d be a problem. He can give you a few good passes and dribbles but he can’t do it every game for 90 minutes, never has ever had to.
Now All of a sudden he’s “washed”, he’s far from washed imo. Any team looking for a pure destroyer type CDM, and already has good ball playing CMs would benefit him greatly. United’s other midfielders aside from Bruno are not up to standard.
It happens but it shouldn’t and wouldn’t to these 4-5 time champions league winners there’s some common factors in the dips in performance with these two players we’ve seen it with Ronaldo as well.
Like Koulibaly with us tbh
Someone like Case who has won it all tends to fall off quicker and its not like United has big ambitions. Doesnt do much for your motivation.
Everytime you mention someone over 30 might decline suddenly you are bombarded with people claiming that there’s “no way a professional like him” could decline and that sports science has gotten so advanced that it essentially trumps biology meaning there’s no reason players would decline one bit before they’re 36 at the earliest.
This subreddit and other social media were hilarious when they signed them. Like it’s logical to question the merits of spending that much on players of that age. Sure there’s some who have held off their declines, but the majority of players dip at a certain age. For the money United spent, they could have bought far better long term options.
But they didn’t want long term options. They’ve got the cash to sign a Casemiro every year or two.
They’d rather overpay for proven players than risk spending a chunk on a player who’s not quite as good, but has room to improve.
Players of his calibre are so rarely available, and especially not willing to go to a borderline CL qualifier with little realistic chance of a title win.
The problem Man U have is that they’ve got the resources for those top drawer players, but they’re not an attractive option.
I mean, imagine them trying to sign Jude Bellingham. Is there actually an amount of money they could have given him to sign there? 3, 4, 5 times the wages Madrid offered? I think he’d still go to Real.
And if he did go to Man U, it would literally only be for money, so not that motivated to put in a good performance. As we’ve seen over and over.
United now are no different to when Liverpool were taken over by FSG. They focused on long term building with smart signings. Signing players after in decline or just before their decline isn’t getting them anywhere. There’s a world of options between Casemiro and Bellingham.
Specially if they’re Brazilian, Marcelo took a massive dive right after 30.
A few high profile players elongated their careers and now everyone on here thinks all footballers can play past their mid thirties and goalkeepers begin their prime at 30
Players decline nobody ever denies that
Casemrio was great 4 months ago so was Varane
The difference is team doing bad so you say this, it’s not about age it’s more about team performance
I just gave an example of Xhaka, do u think prime Xhaka was worse than 30 year old Xhaka? Or was it fans scapegoating due to club performances
Xhaka has not declined yet. Nothing in my comment suggests that I think every player 30 or over has started to decline.
Your comment generalizes and says nothing of value
Nobody has ever said what you are saying you are just overexaggaratting, when both Casemiro and Varane were signed people quesioned it including like Carragher etc
Your point is awful, age matters yes but 3 months of bad performances doesn’t mean 31 year old player is shit and has declined, what would happen if he is good next season? Does age not matter or is it just shit overall team performance by basically everyone
Prime Xhaka is now innit? He was mediocre for years and was a liability for a red card.
How many red cards has Xaka compared to Casemiro?
According to TransferMarkt
Xhaka - 14 (7 Straight Reds) Casemiro - 5 (2 Straight Reds)
Across their whole careers.
On one hand casemiro has gotten away with murder on the field without getting a card so many times in the other hand that may be a skill. Not really sure how to read these stats - feels like context makes it too nuanced.
It’s no skill, it’s playing for Real Madrid.
he was still a beast though, us gooners just seemed to loathe him. I always thought he was sick af
well xhaka also had other issues that caused him to try to do to much thus lose what he was/is good at look not as great.
always liked him even through his bad spell ofc.
didnt help that he was signed when wenger was still there then gone through a few different mangers with different styles.
its prob the same at man u because different managers rate different /want different players or players that they want and not what they have as well.
besides the fact that they are older ofc
casemiro hasn’t been great since february
Yup! I remember getting attacked here for questioning the value of Casemiro at his age/price/contract cos who wants to believe that a player they like might decline soon. Was the same with Peresic who everyone assured me would be a wonderful wingback adapting to PL aged 33!!!
It’s a real minority who play deep into their 30s, handing out big contracts to such players should be done with real care and scrutiny unless you are a monopoly money club then whatever gamble away!
Perisic is our current best left winger. Last year was shit for everybody I don’t think there was any evidence he declined noticeably.
Oh look another example
Last year Perisic legs gone this year he is good
He tore his acl this year
So did Gavi a 11 year old
What is even your point he was good before that
Many people often also ignore the human element of this. They think footballers are robots like in their games of FIFA on PS5. There are so many examples of footballers losing their drive to stay at peak performance or who want to move onto other interests.
And I can’t really blame them.
You’ve earned millions, played tons of important games, won trophies. At some point you might think ‘‘been there, done that’’ and start prioritizing other things besides your footballing career.
For some players the drive to compete and strive for the best never diminishes but it’s not all what’s out there.
Not to mention, when a player is young and poor they are hungry. I just am not certain how a 32 year old, who is worth millions can have that same want to get out of bed every day with achy joints and go train, instead of living in leisure and just putting in the time. It is still a job and many forget that.
He’s also someone that was competing for everything at Madrid and moved to a club that competes for a champions league spot every year.
Also when they’re young and poor their joints don’t ache, they haven’t been kicked for years, maybe don’t have children waking them up in the night
This wave of guys like Ronaldo, Messi, Ibra, Thiago Silva, Modric, have made people forged that 90% of players over 32 are going to drop their performance lvl. People forget these are professionals with their hands on top level technology, nutricion, recovering etc. Also 2 of them were born with probably 1 in a million natural genaracional talent. That and like you said games like Fifa and FM have made people look at older player in a diferent way ( which is not all 100% correct). Hell, 15 years ago, a 29 year old player would be called ancient.
FIFA and FM very much help ingrain the idea that players are washed up and on the decline as soon as they hit 30 - which is the opposite of what you’re saying.
I get your point about players like Modric, Messi, Ibra, Silva, etc, distorting people’s opinions of how long a player can be at their peak for - but the FIFA/FM part is nonsense.
Total garbage. 29 year old players have never been considered ancient.
No one called 29yr old players ancient 15 years ago.
bud you’re on /r/soccer so you’re talking to a 10 year old, 15 years ago the universe didn’t even exist
🤯
I wish I could upvote you twice
yeah Zidane was 29 when Real Madrid signed him and I can’t remember anyone talking about his age
I 100% did this. I said “A 29 year old is a total waste of our time and money. its ridiculous. wtf are we doing? The club has lost it! He’s totally washed and over the hill! Did we learn nothing from Joe Cole?!? FFS!”
… that 29 year old was James Milner.
Yep. What could he do that would live up to the ecstasy of winning the league cup?
Casemiro also went from a culture where excellence is expected to a culture where it’s not.
Casemiro also played a ridiculous amount of games and any type of legginess at a position like DM gets exposed instantly in the PL.
Look at Fabinho ffs. Went from elite to literally washed in like 10 months. Still one of the craziest declines I’ve seen
Which is a stupid argument. Plenty of players that look after their body just decline physically though no fault of their own in their 30s. Look at Diego Forlán. He was always in peak shape, single digit bodyfat and wanted to run for everything, known for longevity. Yet just before the 2011 Copa América when he was 32, he just fell off of a cliff at club level, didn’t score in 12 games and just did not have the legs to play in Europe anymore as a mobile striker. Sometimes it just happens, players decline regardless of how well they look after their body. No one can beat farther time. Jordan Henderson is another example, be was declining for years before leaving Liverpool, despite always being in tip top shape.
Its millage in the legs also… messi and Ronaldo always were efficient with the effort… would walk half the game etc… it’s the charge around non stop players who’s muscles and tendons just lose their snap
Hendo was never in tip top shape. He’s played through a heel problem for years even at his peak.
I actually don’t think most people think this. I think most people HOPE that top players extend their time at the top, but are well aware of the evidence that it’s unlikely.
Soccernomics has their research saying most players peak at 27 IIRC. And that seems to be commonly accepted. Hence why there are so many revelatory articles about players 30+ continuing to do well, Mo for example.
🎶Ohhh Thiago Silvaaaaaaa🎶
We know we got lucky.
Yeah but Chelsea got him for free. Even if he had been garbage he would’ve been valuable for culture. Cavani, Thiago Silva, Zlatan, Larsson, etc all good signings. Even someone like Gary Mac for Liverpool.
If United had signed him for free they’d still be going on about how good he is. But on the flip slide Chelsea would never have spent £70m on Casemiro.
Overrated
You guys are a money-no-object club, you can absolutely afford to take the gambles and pocket the wins. United are having to budget carefully for FFP and they’ve blown a fortune on transfer fee/wages here!
United have even more money than chelsea, just chelsea sometimes actually sell players they’ve spunked away all their money on so they can spunk away some more money
huh wasn’t thiago silva was a free transfer though?
United is also a money-no-object club lol. They are just bad at it
I assume there is a /s here lol.
We signed Silva on a free…and we also stay within FFP by selling/loaning players.
Wages still count for FFP. He’s not playing for free.
Our wage bill is smaller than City’s, Arsenal’s, and United’s…
What part of that doesn’t mean giving a huge contract to an aging player is a risk? You seem to be arguing that it’s not a risk because he was signed on a free transfer.
We give Silva 1 year deals that he and Chelsea must agree to extend…
This has to be a copypasta
United fans and crying about money when they’re just as bad, name a better combo
united just do shit business
No it doesn’t
It happens with young players too
Rashfor goes from shit to world class regularly, AWB went from shit to essential to shit
Many other United players and other team players as well, why? Because fans have the memory of a gold fish and when team does bad they do this
What do you mean about AWB? He went from shit to essential and then has been injured, he’s only just back
Speaking of Rashford, he only gives a shit when he wants a new contract lol
See another stupid comment with goldfish memory and just zero evidence
Rashford never gives a fuck, he sulked and didn’t jump for headers last season any time i watched but he scored goals so your goldfish memory forgets that
He was much better last season - at times, the only other player with Bruno who was a consistent threat. This season, not so much.
Right, you complain about zero evidence and proceed to give zero evidence yourself. Come on.
Rashford and AWB examples are fluctuations in form, an inherent lack of consistency, and/or fit with the manager’s tactics and what the squad needs. This is different than an age-related decline in quality when a player hits a point where their experience and knowledge of the game is no longer able to make up for the loss of athleticism.
Outside of significant injuries, it’s rare that a good player hits their peak in their early-mid 20s and can never get back to that. A lot will reach their potential and stop developing but they don’t go backwards. That’s why it’s so surprising and attracts attention when it does happen, e.g. Dele.
Players in their mid 20s peak and fall off all the time we have thousands of examples, some players are just not that good and peak fall off season after season
Not every player in their mid 20s is consistent
Sure, you can find some, but thousands of examples? I think it’s far more often the case that the players that look to have gotten worse really aren’t, they are just being expected to play at a level beyond their abilities so they look bad. For example a player having a great season in the Championship, getting sold to a PL team and doing poorly most likely isn’t receding from their peak, they were never a PL level player to begin with.
Yes thousands of examples
Players have one off seasons all the time in every league idk how people watch football but say this
Just in PL u have so many one season wonders let alone other leagues that you have never seen
Idk if i know this but it’s very hard to be consistent and great at a very high level
A one off season is not their actual level, it’s just being in great form…
It’s not just one off season, it’s overall consistency that is so hard to achieve at high levels not just in football in every sport
Rashford’s a budget player who turns it on for 7 months when a contract is on the line. Xhaka grew as a player when his role was adapted to provide him better cover to make up for his lack of pace and somewhat questionable defensive instincts. Casemiro has just gotten old after being consistent forever.
Younger players who function better in one system or another or others who turn it on at pinch points in their career are not the same as older player going over the hill.
Also how Casemiro got REALLY fat in the offseason.
One would think he would try to stay in shape now he is over 30. Nope. Party all the way and pick up a lot of weight that needed to be shed really fast.
Tbh it’s really quite common for guys who’ve won everything towards the end of their careers to come back in not the best shape. They’re human after all, some players stay super motivated into their deep 30s but I don’t blame anyone who lets themself go a little bit. It’s more you don’t wanna be on the hook for lying such a player a quarter million a week cos 3 years ago he was a world beater!
In basketball it’s typically that after you hit like 31, 32 you have a 15-20% chance of injury that you never really recover from. Idk if it’s happened to casemiro here or not though.
Lewandowski could be headed for the thing if his form doesn’t pick up soon.
he’s got 7 in what 10 games this season for barcelona, come on.
Even moreso when they are the skillful players expected to carry the team, instead of another cog in the well-oiled machine.
Typical Brazilian
Schweinsteiger