hey folks, we’ll be quick and to the point with this one:
we have made the decision to defederate from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. we recognize this is hugely inconvenient for a wide variety of reasons, but we think this is a decision we need to take immediately. the remainder of the post details our thoughts and decision-making on why this is necessary.
we have been concerned with how sustainable the explosion of new users on Lemmy is–particularly with federation in mind–basically since it began. i have already related how difficult dealing with the explosion has been just constrained to this instance for us four Admins, and increasingly we’re being confronted with external vectors we have to deal with that have further stressed our capabilities (elaborated on below).
an unfortunate reality we’ve also found is we just don’t have the tools or the time here to parse out all the good from all the bad. all we have is a nuke and some pretty rudimentary mod powers that don’t scale well. we have a list of improvements we’d like to see both on the moderation side of Lemmy and federation if at all possible–but we’re unanimous in the belief that we can’t wait on what we want to be developed here. separately, we want to do this now, while the band-aid can be ripped off with substantially less pain.
aside from/complementary to what’s mentioned above, our reason for defederating, by and large, boils down to:
- these two instances’ open registration policy, which is extremely problematic for us given how federation works and how trivial it makes trolling, harassment, and other undesirable behavior;
- the disproportionate number of moderator actions we take against users of these two instances, and the general amount of time we have to dedicate to bad actors on those two instances;
- our need to preserve not only a moderated community but a vibe and general feeling this is actually a safe space for our users to participate in;
- and the reality that fulfilling our ethos is simply not possible when we not only have to account for our own users but have to account for literally tens of thousands of new, completely unvetted users, some of whom explicitly see spaces like this as desirable to troll and disrupt and others of whom simply don’t care about what our instance stands for
as Gaywallet puts it, in our discussion of whether to do this:
There’s a lot of soft moderating that happens, where people step in to diffuse tense situations. But it’s not just that, there’s a vibe that comes along with it. Most people need a lot of trust and support to open up, and it’s really hard to trust and support who’s around you when there are bad actors. People shut themselves off in various ways when there’s more hostility around them. They’ll even shut themselves off when there’s fake nice behavior around. There’s a lot of nuance in modding a community like this and it’s not just where we take moderator actions- sometimes people need to step in to diffuse, to negotiate, to help people grow. This only works when everyone is on the same page about our ethos and right now we can’t even assess that for people who aren’t from our instance, so we’re walking a tightrope by trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. That isn’t sustainable forever and especially not in the face of massive growth on such a short timeframe.
Explicitly safe spaces in real life typically aren’t open to having strangers walk in off the street, even if they have a bouncer to throw problematic people out. A single negative interaction might require a lot of energy to undo.
and, to reiterate: we understand that a lot of people legitimately and fairly use these instances, and this is going to be painful while it’s in effect. but we hope you can understand why we’re doing this. our words, when we talk about building something better here, are not idle platitudes, and we are not out to build a space that grows at any cost. we want a better space, and we think this is necessary to do that right now. if you disagree we understand that, but we hope you can if nothing else come away with the understanding it was an informed decision.
this is also not a permanent judgement (or a moral one on the part of either community’s owner, i should add–we just have differing interests here and that’s fine). in the future as tools develop, cultures settle, attitudes and interest change, and the wave of newcomers settles down, we’ll reassess whether we feel capable of refederating with these communities.
thanks for using our site folks.
Well. Guess I’ll have to go and spin my own self-hosted version of Kbin just to be able to follow everything, without being at the mercy of third-party admins cutting my subscriptions in a whim. Also, I sure hope that the communities either move into Beehaw or outside of it, fragmentation out of the users’ control makes the entire point of federation moot.
That’s always your choice. I think the consensus for the community is that we support the admins because Beehaw isn’t intended to replace Reddit or Twitter. We’re all here to have a more intimate community, like a local coffee shop where you know everyone. My experience has been that these kinds of intimate gatherings allow for more diversity, while maintaining a safer space. We can have respectful differences of opinion without worrying about the hostility that often follows disagreements online. Like a coffee shop, the desire for social cohesion has more of an influence than the desire to be right at all costs like on Twitter/Reddit. Just my two cents. I’m supportive of this, because I know if I ever have a concern I can talk to my friends (Beehaw team) about it. If we can’t agree, I can always find a new friend group and neither party will have hard feelings. I’d like to think it won’t come to that, because of the kind of community Beehaw is. This is exactly the same decision I would make if it were my call.
So, if that were the case, why not remove federation with everything, and require users to log in to view the content in the first place? That way you would guarantee that everyone that views or interacts with the community is properly vetted, in line with the “coffee shop” analogy you’re establishing here. (Something that would have been best achieved by using a non-federated forum software such as Tildes, but alas, it’s a bit too late to do a platform change)
That’s not how I see it. This is nuanced. I don’t think all-or-nothing is a healthy approach either. This instance will federate by default to most instances until they provide a reason (as given in the OP) that continued federation is untenable. In the coffee shop vibe, everyone is welcome, but if a big, loud, and rowdy group shows up, and the coffee shop staff does t ask them to chill or leave if they are disruptive, the regulars are going to find another coffee shop (see the evaporative cooling post from Gaywallet). I think this is the behavior that this community/instance is expecting. Again, if folks don’t like it, they are welcome to spin their own instances. The more the merrier! However, this community is a safe space, and that will be maintained even if it’s inconvenient. Beehaw will never be in a position of growth-at-all costs like Reddit is going through right now. That’s how you turn your corner coffee shop into Starbucks.
Banning the vast majority of users from interacting with your instance at all solely because of where they decided to make their first account on isn’t exactly nuanced either, and I get the technical reasons why you had to do so. But if that’s the main goal, then removing federation altogether, and expecting users to submit to the approval process before interacting with your instance, would have been the better procedure. Think less Starbucks, more of an exclusive cafeteria based on a monthly subscription and with bouncers at the entrance just in case.
Just to clarify, I’m a regular user and not an admin. I’ve contributed a little money to support the cost of running the servers and that’s about it. Beyond that, I don’t think the team running Beehaw is obligated to do more than what they’re doing. Like a local coffee shop is allowed to run their space however they want. I know what you’re saying, but those kinds of decisions would have to have been made a year and a half ago, and would’ve had to have predicted the current influx of Reddit users abandoning the platform. The discussions around how to technically manage Beehaw (to include forking Lemmy so there can be all kinds of changes) don’t take into account the unpaid labor from a small group of volunteers and the monumental effort some of these changes would require. I understand that you’re upset and this is inconvenient, but we all have to come to terms with this decision, just like we came to terms with the undesirable changes at Twitter and Reddit. We can all adapt or abandon the platform. Just don’t forget that Beehaw isn’t run by a billionaire or a company trying to seek an IPO. It’s people. Just like you and me, who are volunteering their spare time and effort to make a cool space for us to hang out with friends.
Not everything is black and white, just because Beehaw doesn’t want to be in the center of massive reddit exodus and fediverse growth doesn’t mean they don’t want to interact with any other (properly moderated) instance.
Fair enough, but just letting people show up in the cafeteria and then shooing them out after the fact because they didn’t know where they came from is not good moderation. Having a bouncer at the door and only allowing clients from places they trust, on request, would be a less taxing moderation policy. (Which is to say, working on an allow-list basis and blocking everyone else unless the instance specifically requests federation with Beehaw, and the latter approves the former’s moderation policies)
I don’t think anyone was prepared for what would happen with reddit and the amount of people that appeared here. This is young tech and most people don’t understand it yet, it’s just growing pains that are bound to happen with it. We learn and then know how to deal with it better later, and that goes for admins, users and developers too. It’s not the first or the last hurdle that fediverses will face for sure.
I don’t know if a white list would be better, or if we need more granular federation options. Maybe they should have banned users from posting rather than defederate, if that option even exists. Maybe the responsibility is on beehaw to moderate these users, maybe it’s on the instance they are coming from since their behavior reflects on their home too. Who knows? We can just try to do our best and I’m sure the admins here are trying to figure it out too.
In all honesty, that sounds like a win-win for everyone involved, especially given that server load is apparently a big problem for now. More spin offs that federate content is good for everyone, and it’s interesting to see how this evolves.