• PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
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    1 day ago

    Socialism is generally considered to be the workers owning the means of production.

    Welfare, infrastrucutre, and public services are not means of production, even if you think that the government is a workers’ state (and I can think of no major current governments which are legitimately workers’ states).

    Socialism is not simply when the government or community does or owns things in general, but the core means of generating economic output.

    • merc@sh.itjust.works
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      15 hours ago

      You seem to misunderstand what the “means of production” entails.

      Why don’t you explain why a private firefighting company isn’t actually capitalist?

      • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
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        9 hours ago

        Why don’t you explain why a private firefighting company isn’t actually capitalist?

        I didn’t say a private firefighting company isn’t capitalist; I said a public firefighting company isn’t socialist.

          • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
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            9 hours ago

            Capitalism is, by the loosest definition, private ownership of firms; by a stricter, more academic definition, the implementation of limited liability corporations and joint stock companies in firms in a market system. A private firefighter company certainly fits the former, and potentially fits the latter.

            Socialism is still worker ownership of the means of production. A private firefighting firm is capitalist, but that does not make a public firefighting firm socialist. Socialism, as an idea, is based around the thought that economic power dictates social power; that workers must gain the power from their economic output to have true control over their social and political future.

            The Roman Empire running the public firefighting service in Rome was not socialist simply because it was a public utility. Nor are modern firefighting services socialist when a socialist party is in power. At best, public firefighting services run by their firefighters would be an example of mutual aid, which is generally regarded well (and often essential) by socialists (and especially anarchists), but is not, itself, socialism.

              • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
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                9 hours ago

                I’ve said it multiple times now.

                worker ownership of the means of production

                that workers must gain the power from their economic output to have true control over their social and political future.

                • merc@sh.itjust.works
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                  8 hours ago
                  worker ownership of the means of production
                  

                  Everything is government owned, check.

                  that workers must gain the power from their economic output to have true control over their social and political future.

                  Firefighters are paid and have control over their social and political futures, check.

                  • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
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                    8 hours ago

                    Everything is government owned, check.

                    means of production

                    Firefighters are paid and have control over their social and political futures, check.

                    You’re not looking at socialism at a social level, which is where the ideology operates.