Hi, all.
As should be news to no one, polarization and animosity between conservatives and liberals is at one of its all-time highs in America right now. There’s even talk of a second civil war looming. Obviously, there are strong passions and convictions on both sides, and people on both sides have claimed that the other is a grave threat to the integrity of the nation itself. I’m familiar with the views and concerns of my own side: we view Donald Trump’s (and his allies’ and supporters’) statements and actions as being an attack on the democratic process that defines our nation, and are worried that the strategies and tactics he and they are employing will make future elections farcical, paving the way for an authoritarian state (a dictatorship). I am less familiar with why conservatives feel Democrats and liberals are a threat to the nation and its integrity in similar fashion. My best guess is that conservatives buy Trump’s assertions that the 2020 presidential election was rigged, and thus might have similar fears as liberals do, but I also get the sense conservatives have deeper, older concerns than this, and that Trump was/is viewed as a solution to them.
Can you please try to articulate here what those fears are? And, to any liberals reading this, please refrain from answering in conservatives’ stead. I’m interested in their opinions, not your opinions of their opinions.
Fundamentally for me it’s that liberals and socialism in general sees the state as the answer to a lot of problems. Healthcare should be handled by the state (I kind of agree with that one), care of the disabled should be handled by the state, personal defense and protection should be handled by the state (police), education should come from the state (public education), etc. And if you’re in favor of the current state then you probably want it in charge of so much of society.
But imagine a state that you don’t want running the country. If you’re a liberal, think of Trump and the Federalists new 2025 game plan. Do you want that state to have so much power?
So in my mind power consolidates and states don’t let go of it. But the goodness and badness of states come and go. In my personal history a lot of my family was killed by the state, so I inherently don’t trust it that much and don’t want it to be large and in charge.
I have no problem with the hopes and aspirations of liberals as I share them. I just feel that a big beefy state apparatus is one evil ruler away from crushing the citizenry.
Thank you for the response!
I’ve thought about this–this oft-commented-upon notion that conservatives want small federal government and more power in the hands of the states and/or people–but I continually find it difficult to square this with what conservatives are voting for today. Trump has been very clear about wanting to consolidate power in his own hands, in a manner consistent with authoritarian dictators, and conservatives don’t seem to have a problem with it. Similarly, while the conservative cant about abortion for decades has been that they want it in state control rather than federal, now that SCOTUS has put in state control, conservatives are talking about a federal ban. So, I don’t really buy this notion that conservatives favor local/state control over federal; I increasingly think that’s a facade for “we don’t like people different from us enforcing their views on us,” but it covers, “we have specific ways we think people should live and we want to enforce those views on other people.” The problem I have with this is that liberal policies don’t actually enforce their ways of life on conservatives, with the significant exception that said policies do push to have liberal ways of life promoted in public education, which conservatives obviously have a problem with. However, liberals aren’t trying to force anyone to get abortions, simply let people who want them have them. Similarly, no one’s trying to force people to be gay or trans; simply accept people who are gay as human beings. I honestly don’t know what conservatives think the “gay agenda” is. Can you explain this?
I understand that the allure of an authoritarian government is one that holds to your own policies and tramples any opposition to them–I can understand the appeal of that to anyone, conservative or liberal. But I would think most people are able to wrap their minds around the idea of civil disagreement and the importance of people being able to debate things and vote on them as a group (democracy). I do think the media has overblown the extent to which conservatives think the following, but January 6th really did send the message that Trump supporters don’t accept what the rest of us call democracy, and that’s a serious problem. Currently, polls indicate most conservatives still support Trump, who is still claiming the 2020 election was stolen from him. Why should liberals regard conservatives as reasonable, rational human beings under these circumstances? Why should I respect the opinions of a person who is willing to vote for a transparent psychopath and liar, just because he parrots what the policies they like to hear? Clearly, liberals vote for politicians who have flaws and simply parrot their views, but Trump is beyond the pale, is he not?
In regards to your first point, I absolutely agree that it’s bullshit for a “small government conservative”, which I often consider myself, to be hypocritical as hell and use the state to enforce their viewpoint on others. In a larger sense, it’s another reason I simply don’t trust the state that much. Because in the final analysis I think most people don’t actually want democracy and they’re more than happy to smash the opposition if they think it’s for the greater good. If you think guns are a net negative then ignoring the second amendment is just a necassary broken egg in the omlette of a safer society. If you think that trans people are a net negative then restricting access to books and medical care is likewise a net-positive because of the greater good. In both of those cases it’s people with an agenda using the state’s ability to force people.
The eyerolling part for me about the woke left is that there is a sea of injustices in this world that they don’t give a shit about at all, but they pick a few as the topics-du-jour and use that for virtue signaling. Like I haven’t met a single woke-left person who genuinely gives a shit about ~40 veterans a day committing suicide. Or janiweed militia still actively raping and murdering in south sudan. I mean if you ask them, sure, they care. But do they actually make it a priority like they do anything else? Do they post about it on reddit like they do JK Rowling’s latest shit? Do they organize or write letters about it? Hell no. And for me, I like to think that I’m aware of the fact that I’m not truly in touch with all the world’s issues and therefore I shouldn’t sit around lecture other people about what they should care about and what they shouldn’t. I’m no moral exemplar, I’m just some guy trying to do the right thing and I’m not holding you accountable for paying attention to all the things that I am because holy-shit maybe, just maybe, you are aware of things that I’m not? But the woke-left feels that it has The List of Injustices and if you do not prioritize those you are an absolute piece of shit who is mentally and morally flawed, never bothering to realize that there are many other Lists of Injustices that they conveniently ignore.
And I think the left does attempt to make others follow their path. Think of how up in arms the left (generally) gets about the “under god” line in the pledge, or the pledge in general. Sure you can sit down through it, you can just not say under god, but the fact that it’s there drives people absolutely nuts. Flip it around to pronouns in email signatures and you have something similar whereby you can simply ignore it, but it’s a cultural value and norm that’s being foisted upon you. No one’s going to arrest you for sitting down during the pledge or using the wrong pronouns, but it will potentially hurt you socially and job-wise.
Regarding Trump, yes, he is a terrible person who I wouldn’t want to be my neighbor let alone president. I never voted for him and never would in the future. The best way I see the republican party now is sort of like the democrats from 1850->1930. During that 80 year time frame they went from being the party of white southern slave owners to FDR. It was a radical shift and the republican party is going through a transformation of the same. Democrats too: it used to be a party of working class people but that shifted and now it’s more the educated-coastals who love nothing more than nasal gazing at “people who hold onto their bibles and guns” (obama) or “deplorables” (h. clinton). But I’m here on r/conservative (or whatever it is on lemmy), never would I be on r/republican because that party is a mid-transition mess. I’m happy with adjusting my values because of my own experience and learning, but I’m not going to follow a party around wherever it may lead me.
I really don’t find anyone left or right that wants to truly discuss anything. My buddy is in a group called better angels (https://www.thebetterangelssociety.org) where they specifically have tough conversations across the political spectrum and I love that. But liberals are kidding themselves if they see themselves as the open minded thoughtful types and everyone else is just some grunting rube who’s alternating between a klan hood and a maga hat.
I’m in Nevada, and my congressman is a Steven Horsford (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Horsford). He had an 11 year affair with a subordinate and funneled campaign money to her (federal crime). He was roundly re-elected I’m assuming because however objectionable his personal (and criminal) behavior is, at least he’s not a republican! I bring that up because the mechanism by which people will elect a bad person because he’s at least going to vote the way we want is common across all parties. Is Trump worse? Sure, definitely, no doubt. But for real: imagine a democrat who would break the law to truly alter climate change and provide for universal health care, do you think a lot of liberals would be aghast at the abuse of power? Or do you think, similar to Horsford, that people will walk through hip-deep shit if it means getting the country that they want. They’ll do it by hook or by crook.
So to your question of “Why should liberals regard conservatives as reasonable, rational human beings under these circumstances? Why should I respect the opinions of a person who is willing to vote for a transparent psychopath and liar, just because he parrots what the policies they like to hear?” my answer would be because they’re no better. Trump’s worse, sure, but there is zero evidence to suggest that liberals would somehow act differently if they had a chance to put their own Trump in office. So instead I would take the very uncomfortable position that none of us are nearly as smart and on solid footing as we’d like to think we are.