“The people in the Federation exist in a bubble of safety and happiness, but there are outsiders to that sphere of the Federation—surrounded by the Dominion, the Founders, the Klingons [of this era], the [Romulan secret police] Tal Shiar, that don’t have the same moral relativity that we do. They would see [the Federation] destroyed to fit their moral relativism,” Kazinsky argued. “People need to understand why people don’t like the idea [of Section 31], but it hasn’t changed the idea.”
This kind of logic implies that stooping down to barbarism is OK as long as you are hypocritical about it.
I agree, that logic has been used to justify atrocities throughout history, including right now. It’s exactly what Israel says about Palestine, China about the Uyghurs, Trump about Mexican immigrants. And it’s completely antithetical to Star Trek’s values.
To be honest, that’s always been the core argument.
I don’t know where the line is - obviously, the morphogenic virus in DS9 was beyond the pale, but is it wise to expect hostile neighbours to be won over by sunshine and rainbows?
I feel like the big issue is the difference in how it’s portrayed. In DS9 and even enterprise section 31 are the bad guys. They are portrayed as a shadowy organization that thinks it’s doing the right thing but when confronted gets in the way. In DS9 they even lose. Section 31 arent an example of the end justifying the means being a necessary evil, they are something from within for the idealistic federation to overcome and defeat.
As a concept section 31 doesnt make a whole lot of sense lore wise because the federation is a paramilitary organization. Sure they are scientists, explorers, and philosophers at heart, but they are also very much a military Navy. We also see that starfleet does have a non section 31 intelligence complete with spies that go deep undercover get the trust of their enemies and sell them out. The federation knows the galaxy is a hostile place which is why they explore in heavily armed warships with a crew that follows a strict chain of command.
I think part of the wish fulfillment and idealism of the federation lies in the implication that they are also very powerful and able and willing to defend themselves with great force. Even the cruise ship Enterprise D was able to take on multiple enemy warships at once and win.
The major difference between section 31 and standard federation operating procedures seems to be their appetite for genocide and civilians.
It is a thing that has made me nervous about this new project since it was announced. Section 31 appearing as a bump in the road for our idealistic federation members to deal with works and allows them to stay the badguy. Them as the protagonists of a show or movie puts us in a situation where we get told stories where the ends justifies the means. And they either do this by making the federation seem naive and incompetent(which they arent they have a prime directive where they sterilize all life on a planet) or it has them justifying some heinous crap.
This kind of logic implies that stooping down to barbarism is OK as long as you are hypocritical about it.
I agree, that logic has been used to justify atrocities throughout history, including right now. It’s exactly what Israel says about Palestine, China about the Uyghurs, Trump about Mexican immigrants. And it’s completely antithetical to Star Trek’s values.
To be honest, that’s always been the core argument.
I don’t know where the line is - obviously, the morphogenic virus in DS9 was beyond the pale, but is it wise to expect hostile neighbours to be won over by sunshine and rainbows?
I feel like the big issue is the difference in how it’s portrayed. In DS9 and even enterprise section 31 are the bad guys. They are portrayed as a shadowy organization that thinks it’s doing the right thing but when confronted gets in the way. In DS9 they even lose. Section 31 arent an example of the end justifying the means being a necessary evil, they are something from within for the idealistic federation to overcome and defeat.
As a concept section 31 doesnt make a whole lot of sense lore wise because the federation is a paramilitary organization. Sure they are scientists, explorers, and philosophers at heart, but they are also very much a military Navy. We also see that starfleet does have a non section 31 intelligence complete with spies that go deep undercover get the trust of their enemies and sell them out. The federation knows the galaxy is a hostile place which is why they explore in heavily armed warships with a crew that follows a strict chain of command.
I think part of the wish fulfillment and idealism of the federation lies in the implication that they are also very powerful and able and willing to defend themselves with great force. Even the cruise ship Enterprise D was able to take on multiple enemy warships at once and win.
The major difference between section 31 and standard federation operating procedures seems to be their appetite for genocide and civilians.
It is a thing that has made me nervous about this new project since it was announced. Section 31 appearing as a bump in the road for our idealistic federation members to deal with works and allows them to stay the badguy. Them as the protagonists of a show or movie puts us in a situation where we get told stories where the ends justifies the means. And they either do this by making the federation seem naive and incompetent(which they arent they have a prime directive where they sterilize all life on a planet) or it has them justifying some heinous crap.
There’s a very clear line between having a military and intelligence services and having a MKULTRA-era-CIA-in-space.
Go on…